Structure in scenes

[skip.knox]

There are tons of books about how to structure a novel. I got that. Where I struggle is in how to structure scenes.

Not the easy ones, mind you. Those are, well, easy. Action, response. MRU. All those things. It's the large scenes that I struggle with. Right now, for example, I have a huge battle scene. We've been building up to this for seventy thousand words or so. Five entire Roman legions get annihilated. I have multiple major characters to account for.

So it's more than just a scene. More than a chapter? Perhaps (it's about 8000 words in rough draft). I have another challenge toward the end of the novel--a multi-day siege of Constantinople. That one is definitely multiple chapters.

I do try to think about story arc. The battle (and the siege) has a beginning, middle and end. Some of the characters are changed by the event. But none of the novel-sized formulae seem to fit very well.

Now, I'm perfectly content to write the scene as I see fit. Already have, in fact. But it got me wondering if folks here have thought about these large set-pieces, so common to epic fantasy, and if there are in fact models. Not to follow, but to mine for ideas, at least.

 

[Penpilot]

To me, at its core, writing large set pieces is the same as writing a small intimate scene. You have your POV character and each scene of the large set piece is either an action or reaction scene. With multiple POV characters, they each have their own plot thread(s) to deal with so each of their scenes is either an action or reaction scene. Put it all together and you have your big set piece told through multiple POVs and multiple plot threads, showing the entirety of you set piece.

 

[Vanilla]

OP,

It depends how you've written the rest of the book. I mean, I know how I'd do it, but that's my style. If your own writing style is different, then my advice won't be much help. Still, here goes:

Writing action is all about speed and concision. You probably know about short sentences, right? I assume, if you've got 70,000 words leading up to it, then you know how to write at least half okay. Here's an example, though:

He drew his sword and turned to face the foe, then lunged forwards, thrusting past her shield, her sword, parting her mail, until blood washed over the hilt and she fell, dead.

Way too long sentences. Try like:

He drew his sword and turned. Her shield was raised. He slammed into it, bashed, stabbed. Her mail split at the belly. Blood sprayed. She fell, screaming.

1,000 times better.

Okay, that's pretty basic stuff you probably know already, but it also applies to action scenes as a whole, I find. Breaking a scene down into shorter sentences, then shorter paragraphs, then shorter pages, then shorter chapters, it all works better to pick up the pace. What I mean is, especially if you've got multiple protagonists, then constantly switching points of views to show different parts of the battle works well for this. Some scenes might only be half a page in length, for example.

If you want a written example, message me privately and I'll show you my own recent-most action scene.

Wish ye well

 

[skip.knox]

Thanks, guys. It's appreciated.

My difficulty centers more around the level of pacing. Sure, action, reaction. Sure, work your sentences. But think of how Tolstoy handled Borodino. He moved between his main characters, jumped over to Napoleon, backed out for some philosophizing -- there are numberless possibilities!

I do know my main characters will have certain things happen. That's a given. I have a secondary villain die. I could just let that happen off-stage, but I really enjoyed killing him, and his death is directly relevant to the eventual fate of the army.

In the swampy middle comes something like this: I need to show how things fall apart for the army. I can cut between my three main characters. I can include something from omniscient, something from the Emperor's POV. I even have a minor character, mainly there just to dramatize the army's final moments. I have a brave cavalry officer make a fatal charge. One question is how much detail each deserves. Another is which scenes need to be cut. Another is how to make a good handoff between each POV. Still another is, are each of these separate chapters? If not, how do they get grouped? Tolstoy actually cuts away and comes back.

Rarely do I see writing guides address plotting at this intermediary level.

 

[Penpilot]

In the swampy middle comes something like this: I need to show how things fall apart for the army. I can cut between my three main characters. I can include something from omniscient, something from the Emperor's POV. I even have a minor character, mainly there just to dramatize the army's final moments. I have a brave cavalry officer make a fatal charge. One question is how much detail each deserves. Another is which scenes need to be cut. Another is how to make a good handoff between each POV. Still another is, are each of these separate chapters? If not, how do they get grouped? Tolstoy actually cuts away and comes back.

In a way, this battle is a plot unto itself, so maybe treat it that way and plan it out like a plot/story, with act structure, inciting incident, mid-point, etc.

Here's a link to a screen writing articles on finales. Maybe that will give you some ideas, Page not found : Save the Cat!®.

 

[FifthView]

He drew his sword and turned to face the foe, then lunged forwards, thrusting past her shield, her sword, parting her mail, until blood washed over the hilt and she fell, dead.

Way too long sentences. Try like:

He drew his sword and turned. Her shield was raised. He slammed into it, bashed, stabbed. Her mail split at the belly. Blood sprayed. She fell, screaming.

Oh, I think this depends on what the goal is for the scene.

The sequence of shorter sentences puts us, the readers, in the moment. They also have the effect of switching back-and-forth between the MC's actions and his opponent's activity: "Her shield was raised" is in the passive voice anyway, but we know it was raised by her; "her mail split" is activity coming from a source that isn't the MC, as is "blood sprayed;" and "she fell" is her again, as in the longer sentence but "screaming" puts more focus on her activity.

The longer sentence has a montage sort of feel and would work if the goal is to show the MC in a state of bloodlust or at least fluid motion, where all actions blend together. The focus remains more on the MC, although there is his action (up to "mail") and the result of that action. I actually like the longer sentence here.

Probably, utilizing both approaches in an extended scene would be good. Since the longer sentence is somewhat montage/flow and is focused on the MC, it can be used before some sort of surprise major twist/event happens that gives him pause; after which, he's more focused on the exterior, changed reality. I.e., he's going along, dispatching foes rather easily; something happens that suddenly threatens this state of ease/flow; then, he's reacting to various minutiae—because he needs to. Also, the reader is having all those tiny details highlighted (e.g., seeing each individual action of a foe) and this has the effect of disrupting the MC's flow, adding tension because, duh, sudden twists and turns can happen during a battle.

This isn't so much about overall pacing of the scene (although it is), but is rather about a MC's internal pacing. Interestingly enough, for the character the montage/flow may seem to go quicker but having the tinier moment-to-moment considerations during a period of difficulty (all those shorter sentences) can seem like moments dragged out or time slowing down for the MC. Because we are "there" with the MC, we may experience things this way also.

 

[Mythopoet]

Rarely do I see writing guides address plotting at this intermediary level.

I think this is because once you get beyond the basics, it all depends on the unique story you're telling and your unique goals as a storyteller. Every story and every author has different needs. It's not the sort of thing you can give general advice about. You need to get in touch with your story and figure out its specific needs. Find your vision and figure out how to make it work. It's something only you can do.

 

[skip.knox]

I clicked the Thanks button, but I wanted to add a post to say thanks ... for nothing!

It really does come down to that, doesn't it, Mythopoet? After all the advice, the online courses, the workshops, the crit sisters and brothers, after all of the advice and guidance, it's just me and that damned page. It's like an actor, who can rehearse till the cows come home, have supper and sleep in your bed, but ultimately it's Opening Night and it's about that performance.

Yeah, ok. Now you've cheered me up _and_ I've cheered me up. Yay team.

(really, I'm ok; I'm just finding stuff out)