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The ultimate villian:

Should the ultimate villian also secretly struggle internally? A sociopath often does have a pained inner struggle. Psychopaths get the free ticket to not caring but they're technically terms no longer used in diagnosis and they're considered on the same spectrum now, so maybe it's a sliding scale or different for every person who has this.

If we're speaking all cases, I don't know. What's the purpose of the villain? This is probably the better question for a thread, heh.

If we're talking about my own personal vision of "ultimate villain," then I think those whose actions cannot be well understood—because their motivations are hidden, absurd, illogical to extreme degree—are the most terrifying. We're verging on the idea of monster here. You know how monsters that are hidden are the most terrifying? That sort of thing.

Does such a villain make for a good character? Probably, yes, but not as a point of view character. Presenting POV sections might intensify the effectiveness of the villain, but this doesn't mean this villain is a good POV character. If you want to follow a villain around, make him a good POV character, you'll probably need that internal struggle and lots of other things besides.
 

BearBear

Archmage
If we're talking about my own personal vision of "ultimate villain," then I think those whose actions cannot be well understood—because their motivations are hidden, absurd, illogical to extreme degree—are the most terrifying. We're verging on the idea of monster here. You know how monsters that are hidden are the most terrifying?

Is this definition of the ultimate villian redeemable even if only to themself from their perspective? Say a villian goes through an awakening, realizes their mistake and tries to make amends? I had a conversation with a friend over this recently and we were at an impasse, what are your thoughts?

In case you don't follow my cryptic wording, the contentious point was, would such a redemption be real or just as skewed as the original wrongdoings, therefore a false awakening. I think this is the choice of the author and in that case is it believable? Say of Thanos apologizes sincerely.

If you want to follow a villain around, make him a good POV character, you'll probably need that internal struggle and lots of other things besides.

Though not every ordinary villian in my stories are "POV" characters I think a main protagonist should be at least to the author even of it's hidden to the reader. One of the exercises I used early on was sort of a character building script where you would explore such things. I believe it eliminates the inconsistencies and makes the character more cohesive, but no, it's not necessary.
 
Is this definition of the ultimate villian redeemable even if only to themself from their perspective? Say a villian goes through an awakening, realizes their mistake and tries to make amends? I had a conversation with a friend over this recently and we were at an impasse, what are your thoughts?

In case you don't follow my cryptic wording, the contentious point was, would such a redemption be real or just as skewed as the original wrongdoings, therefore a false awakening. I think this is the choice of the author and in that case is it believable? Say of Thanos apologizes sincerely.

I don't think Thanos fits within that characterization. His motivations were not cryptic.

Is such a villain redeemable?

I'd rather ask, would a true redemption arc for such a villain be just as entertaining as an arc showing the villain can never be truly redeemed due to his nature?

I think, not. I think most readers will enjoy seeing such a villain suffer and lose. It's more entertaining to see him suffer, go through some permutations, but end up somewhere else that is just as bad. This confirms his nature. When he is finally defeated, his defeat comes as a massive shock to himself but not to the reader.
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
Have you had an anti-christ archetype in your stories?

What's your ultimate villian like? (One even Data can not best?)

How can you defeat someone like that or like yours?

Thought I would answer these questions directly.

I have not had an anti-Christ. least I think I have not. I don't think I can have an anti-Christ without first having a Christ. The fantasy worlds I write about are not Christian and dont have that tradition. But even without it, I think there would have to be established some idea for someone to appear who is anti-that.

The notion of an Anti-Christ, would be, as I view it, almost a religion that springs up around a false belief, or a false hope, and its leader is willingly doing so with the understanding that its it designed to oppose the good. I do not have that in my story. I think I prefer more directly demons and devils and actual sinister powers at play. I might write such a character if I had a world that had had a Christ-like figure in it. But...unlike many, I dont admire villains. I think they are just a part of the whole. Both the Villains and the heroes have to go hand in hand. If the villains is cool but the hero is not, I dont think the story will work. They both have to shine together.

I dont understand the comment about Data, is that a reference to Star Trek?

My ultimate villain is one that makes the struggle real, is very likely to succeed, and wants to undo things and cause havok on just about about every level, including the big four, Emotional, Physical, Mental and Spiritual. I personally did not think very much of the Marvel movies, and Thanos did not reach me. I thought Darth Vader was a great villain. For me, the ultimate villain does not have to be a cult leader, or even have a big following. They just have to be capable with or without such support. I cannot say as the villain in my story would make my list as an 'Ultimate Villain' but the next book will feature him more, so we'll see. I am not sure there is such a thing as an 'Ultimate' villain. Perhaps Satan himself, but I am not sure he would be done justice in a commercial work. Dracula was a great Villain. I thought Kergan from Highlander was as well. Joker is for Batman, but not for Superman. And Lex is just all around. The terminator robots were in all the James Cameron Terminator movies. Meh...A bunch of others. Liked the wicked queen from the Huntsmen. Count Rogan from Princess Bride too..


How to defeat them. Well, if you hit them with a sword a lot.

It would matter who the villain was, I guess. One ending I liked a lot, was the Grinch. Cause no matter what the Grinch did, he could not take away the good heart of the people in whoville. He thought he could win, but actually, he never could.

If the question was, how could I defeat an Anti-Christ? Well...with Christ, right? An anti-Christ is not powerful because of his magic powers, but because others follow him. Good people unite and put an end to it.
 

Queshire

Auror
Huh. I'm honestly surprised by a lot of these replies. 0_o

Personally a villain with uncomprehensible motives or known for the havoc they wrought don't really do it for me. It becomes easy to write them off. At that point it doesn't matter what their motives are. They just need killing.

MCU Thanos is okay for the type of thing I like, but he fails one crucial test; "Why do people follow him?"
 

pmmg

Myth Weaver
I thought Thanos failed on more reasons than that. I thought his plan was just stupid on its face. He would have been smart enough to know that. But...a lot of people like the marvel movies way better than me, so...
 

Mad Swede

Auror
I don't like to think of characters as heroes or villains, I'd rather think of them as protagonists and antagonists. To me that gives more freedom to explore why a character would over time take to ever more extreme measures to achieve their aims. Aims which may in themselves be good or at least reasonable, aims which others can agree with and support, so allowing the character to build a group of followers. That then gives me the ability to explore why a group of people might let their sense of ethics change over time as they try to achieve their goals. In that sense I wouldn't regard the antagonist as some ultimate villain, more as someone who has for one reason or another lost their sense of ethics and values.
 

BearBear

Archmage
Maybe Thanos was priced out of that beach house he wanted and if it weren't for all that overcrowding the price would be more manageable. You know taxes are a real killer so...
 

Puck

Troubadour
I suppose if you look at history, the fact is that there are very few people (if any) who you could categorise as an out and out villain. There were people (many people) who performed acts of violence we would now consider atrocities. But these acts were considered more acceptable in medieval times, or at least justified.

If you look at the people who fought the Wars of the Roses, it is very hard to classify any of those leaders as out and out villains. It is also hard to reasonably view any of them as out and out heroes either.

Someone like Henry V, in reality, was a very difficult character to classify in the context of any fantasy writing I have ever come across.

On the one hand he was highly effective, he brought stability to his kingdom, he was fair and even handed, he did not tolerate corruption, he was a pious man, he took his personal duties and obligations very seriously, he always kept his word, he was often measured and restrained in dishing out punishments, he was a brilliant and energetic military leader.

On the other hand he was ruthless, extremely ambitious, utterly merciless to anyone who defied him. He was cold, quite scary to meet in real life. He took offense if anyone dared to look him directly in the eye. He was uncompromising and had definite autocratic tendencies. He was undoubtedly an imperialist, every bit as much as Napoleon was centuries later. He committed appalling atrocities as and when he felt it was necessary in order to get what he wanted. He had no qualms whatsoever about killing hundreds of civilians, including children, in order to crush resistance to his will.

So, did that make him a hero, or a villain?
 

Puck

Troubadour
I think attempting to portray an anti-Christ or Lucifer character is far from easy to pull off. I have almost never seen that kind of thing done well in my opinion.

The best Satan character in fantasy/horror that I can think of would probably be Captain Hatch from the TV Series Being Human. Hatch was unnerving and sinister. What made that work especially well was that he was more intent on screwing with people's heads and corrupting them rather than necessarily physically harming anyone (although he did have the somewhat disturbing ability to make people commit suicide by whispering a few words in their ear). He had some great lines too.

"...all I have to do is stir them up a bit, and wait for the power to rise and carry me out of here on a great wave... I’m getting stronger every day. And when the time is right I will rise. And then I’m going to drain the world dry. I’m going to laugh up every drop of hope and love and feel it run down my chin. I’m going to turn men into beasts and ruin their women and spit poison into their children. I’m going to scorch the earth with proper Old Testament despair and teach them that the gods are there to be feared and everything you love will die and everything you’re scared of will come true."
 
"The greatest harm can result from the best intentions". This "rule" from a Terry Goodkind book does a great job of summing up a good villain (and conflicted protagonist) to me.

This type of villain wants to make things better, they want to be a hero, but they have made a number of "the ends justify the means" decisions that they wind up the bad guy. A villain like this can be rife with internal struggle, or so far gone that they think of themselves as a righteous diety.
 

M Corbett

Scribe
I’m personally a fan of a decoy villain and another, more evil hidden villain. Ideally their reveal is some form or betrayal.
 
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