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Unexpected gems

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Sometimes I pick up a book on a whim and it pays unexpected dividends. Today's example: True Grit, by Charles Portis.

I'm not a fan of Westerns. I've read a bit of Zane Grey and a bit of Louis L'Amour, and can say it again: I'm not a fan of Westerns. I don't really know why I grabbed this book, but I'm glad I did. Never mind the plot, here are some things of possible interest to us as fantasy writers.

1. The story starts about 42% of the way into the book (reading it in ebook format). Seriously. It's not until over a third in that Mattie and Rooster Cogburn cross the river into Indian Territory, not until then does the pursuit of her father's murderer actually begin. So much for modern writing advice about where to start.

2. Is this Mattie's story, or Cogburn's? I'm 74% done and I still can't really say. Portis made an interesting narration choice: we stay in close first person right through, but it's clear from some references (e.g., to Al Smith as a candidate for president) that she is telling this story years later. It's an old woman telling a young girl's story. Why? Don't know yet, but it raises the question for first person of *when* the narrator is telling the story. Many times, it's not explicit and the reader read it more or less as if it were the next day after end of story. Other times, the story comes from much later, and that can add perspective.

3. This is the juiciest, for me as a fantasy writer: the dialogue. Portis does a brilliant job of creating a late 19th century voice, both in word choice and in grammar. There is this marvelous mix of rather formal grammar with sometimes rough speech that is unlike any speaking you'll hear nowadays. I'm charmed by it. The closest parallel I can think of is Damon Runyan's short stories (think Guys and Dolls).

As a corollary of this, Portis has done his research and offers up words and phrases I've not encountered. I'll offer one as an example: grass widow. You can look it up if interested. What struck me is that I could use a term like "grass widow" in a fantasy novel. I'd probably have to give it a bit of context, but the term is so antiquated, only a handful of readers would realize I'd re-purposed an actual phrase. I've come across a dozen or so such gems in the book so far.

So, there you go. Read widely. Or, to quote the sage: one thing I know is, you just never know.
 

Trick

Auror
Portis made an interesting narration choice: we stay in close first person right through, but it's clear from some references (e.g., to Al Smith as a candidate for president) that she is telling this story years later. It's an old woman telling a young girl's story. Why? Don't know yet, but it raises the question for first person of *when* the narrator is telling the story. Many times, it's not explicit and the reader read it more or less as if it were the next day after end of story. Other times, the story comes from much later, and that can add perspective.

This ^^^

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm going for in my FPPOV WIP. I think you can give the reader two distinct impressions of the POV character by having the story told by the older version about the younger. For instance, you may really dislike the younger version, who is arguably the main character, while loving the older version, who is, in fact, the narrator and really serving as a different character in some ways. Love it.

We should start a thread where people just post about lessons they learned from books they've read recently - I know people do this from time to time but it would be cool to have a group of us do it for every worthwhile book we read, in a dedicated thread.

Any takers?

Thanks Skip!
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
I love westerns, but not so much the written variety and you are right about phrases. Cowboy phrases can offer up some amazing opportunities, even if you don't use them exactly. One of my favorites I used in a western screenplay was to have "a wax cat's chance in hell" and I think I've used a phrase inspired by it in my fantasy, as well as other western inspirations. Grass widow is a good one, and it could spin off so many fantasy versions.

Edit: I also use some western-esque dialogue in my fantasy work for a couple of folks.
 
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Nimue

Auror
Interestingly enough, I've just re-read a fantasy book that used the term "grass widow"-- Lois McMaster Bujold's Sharing Knife/Wide Green World series. Has its roots in a western/frontier atmosphere, without explicitly using that historical context, to great effect. All the best parts of that setup, including the verisimilitude in the language that carries from dialogue to narration to in-world names. Plus unique magic and believable social dynamics. Fantastic series. (It is 85% romance, though, for anyone who needs to be warned of that.)
 
C

Chessie

Guest
Given that this is a fantasy forum, don't even get me started on how much I adore the western romance genre. I've written a few stories and will someday be brave enough to mix western and fantasy together. Love it. And regarding unexpected gems, totally feel you on that, Skip! It's great when you're not so sure what to think at first and are then surprised with a new love. Not a book, but I watched Huntsmen Winter's War on the airplane home and absolutely fell in love when my original thought was, wow, this is going to be so super lame.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Hm, I like Victorian phrasing, but most of what I know is rather urban vs. American frontier style. But I agree, it adds flavor and realism and depth to a world. For my rewrite, I'm using my own terms that I've invented, based on my port town's culture. Ooh, this is fun, I hope you don't mind my posting a couple here, just to share these moments I think I'm clever.

"A cat in a hand basket": A person who watches the goings on without participating, as if protected like a pet cat in a lady's hand basket.

"Get your dog spear": plan for the fallout of whatever bad decision is about to happen. Referencing how when shop keeps responded to thievery by getting guard dogs. But when the threat passed and thieves stopped breaking and entering shops, the dogs were useless and turned out in the streets. So it fell to citizens with spears to take care of the feral packs that caused a nuisance.

"honest cat": A person who is legitimate and doesn't need to act the opportunist. Referring to the many cats on the wharf who have to steal and scrap to survive, vs. the pets who have things handed to them.

I realize those are all animal ones, but they're easy to come up with, so I guess that's why I went for that...easy to understand with little context given.

"snitch-eye" the furtive glance a shady character gives over their shoulder before talking business, just to make sure no one's within earshot.

I guess that's it for now, but yeah, I love to use phrasing to create depth of character and setting, giving the illusion that culture within a story is unique from ours, but similar. I also make use of common phrases like, "Bones in your yard" meaning secrets you don't want uncovered, and some other things anyone would recognize, but I do try to pepper in a few that will make my world feel unique, specifically this port town and their setting.

I love that you mentioned this, Skip. Super fun!!!
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
I actually ordered and paid for an entire dictionary of seventeenth-century slang.

Yep.

It was originally written to help gentlemen to be able to understand what their laymen were saying.

My favorites are:

"Apple dumpling cart." = Boobs

"Lord of Limbs" = Skinny guy

"Fallen from a horse load to a cart load" = Gotten really fat.

Bum-fodder = (crap or Sh*t... like toilet paper).
 
I actually ordered and paid for an entire dictionary of seventeenth-century slang.

Yep.

It was originally written to help gentlemen to be able to understand what their laymen were saying.

My favorites are:

"Apple dumpling cart." = Boobs

"Lord of Limbs" = Skinny guy

"Fallen from a horse load to a cart load" = Gotten really fat.

Bum-fodder = (crap or Sh*t... like toilet paper).

I need this book in my life.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I do too. I copied a list of Victorian slang because I thought it might come in handy for the steampunk stories I was writing. I guess the Victorian one was hard because so much of it doesn't immediately make sense, but I guess I try to just use them as seasoning. I loved bit-shaver (which I used in my novel, but called him a coin-shaver), and barking irons (which I used in a couple short stories), and I'm so stealing bum-fodder for the steampunk one, too!

Come to think of it, we have an old thread floating around here, where we did this. We had pages of slang and cultural vernacular for various time periods. In fact, this is one of the reasons i write Renaissance-feeling books, rather than Medieval. I love how folks in the 16th-18th centuries spoke, and I feel I can push the language boundaries a little in time period, as long as I can clearly convey the technological era of the world. But I can't stand Medieval speech patterns when I read them in historical romance...mostly because people didn't do enough research, but also because it just sounds silly when you try to mix it with modern writing. As in...when sentences don't reflect each other, but the action and internal thoughts are in modern English, and the dialogue is all old-sounding. Bleh...that irks me.
 

Russ

Istar
If you want colourful expressions that translate over great to fantasy, look no further than the German language.

Even their sports expressions are awesome. A guy named Robben who gets hurt a lot is called "glass bones" in the press. A short guy who is a great player (Lahm) is known as "the magic dwarf."

And on top of that, I love westerns passionately. However I recently saw "Hateful Eight" and was let down.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
The Germans have fun stuff for sure! I'm guessing most cultures have some doozies, it's just a matter of translating them, LOL. Chinese stuff tends to get tricky...

Seriously, you expect anything from Quentin? Tarantino hasn't been much good since the 90's (Reservoir Dogs & Pulp Fiction... overrated but very good) with my favorite being Natural Born Killers, which he didn't direct. He's still a notch or two above M. Night in my chuckle-ratings, but I was glad to hear QT is going to retire, heh heh. He did have a hand in Sin City, but I can hardly give him major credit for that one.

If you want colourful expressions that translate over great to fantasy, look no further than the German language.

Even their sports expressions are awesome. A guy named Robben who gets hurt a lot is called "glass bones" in the press. A short guy who is a great player (Lahm) is known as "the magic dwarf."

And on top of that, I love westerns passionately. However I recently saw "Hateful Eight" and was let down.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
One of my favorites. Over the summer I went to New Orleans and toured The Evergreen plantation where it was filmed.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
I was half-ill when I watched Django, so I should give that one a second chance. But, Tarantino and I parted ways long ago, he bores me. And I'm not a Foxx nor Leotardo fan. Gerald McRaney makes up for some of that, heh heh.

I doubt my opinion would change much, I am particularly brutal when judging westerns.

Dude, have you seen D'Jango Unchained? Tarentino killed it!
 
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C

Chessie

Guest
Tarentino isn't one of my favorites, actually, which is why I was so surprised with D'Jango. But returning to westerns...aside from gangster & zombie movies, my goal is to see as many westerns as I can in my time here on Earth. I've read very little in the way of westerns except for romance, which is unfortunately populated by terrible stories on Amazon these days. And to be honest...I've been wanting to give Unicorn Western a try for years now but I've been too scared. Maybe I should just go for it. :p
 

Trick

Auror
I was half-ill when I watched Django, so I should give that one a second chance. But, Tarantino and I parted ways long ago, he bores me. And I'm not a Foxx nor Leotardo fan. Gerald McRaney makes up for some of that, heh heh.

I doubt my opinion would change much, I am particularly brutal when judging westerns.

I'm not a Foxx fan either, usually, but he plays the part more muted than his usual roles and it came across well. Leonardo gave one of the best (and by that I mean "worst" since he was a villain) performances I've seen of his and Christoph Waltz's performance was spectacular.

I love reservoir dogs (hate pulp fiction) and I'm pretty sure that Django is better.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
I've read very little in the way of westerns except for romance, which is unfortunately populated by terrible stories on Amazon these days.

You never go wrong by reading the masters, regardless of genre. Some years ago I made a reading list, pulling from the areas that most appeal to me, along with some "just because" entries. A few have been slogs, but for the most part they've been winners. And I get lots of those surprise gems I mentioned. Why wade through the discount grab bag when you can shop in the best stores?
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Why wade through the discount grab bag when you can shop in the best stores?

This is my philosophy too. Partly because I learn so much from the masters, doesn't matter what genre. Be it literary, or romance, or contemporary, or thriller... If an author is considered a big deal in his genre I read his or her stuff.

But also partly because I find I'm a bit of a chameleon. My work comes out similar to the work I might be reading. I worry if I read too much crap it will affect what I write.
 

Demesnedenoir

Myth Weaver
I'll give Django another shot while healthier, but even with Reservoir Dogs/Pulp Fiction, those were "loves" for their time, not necessarily if I watch them again. NBK, actually an Oliver Stone flick with QT getting the writing credit... I just love that movie. It's an illness, much like the Princess Bride. Leo as a villain would probably work, I naturally seem to dislike him even when he's likable, although he does have a couple flicks I really enjoyed.

I'm not a Foxx fan either, usually, but he plays the part more muted than his usual roles and it came across well. Leonardo gave one of the best (and by that I mean "worst" since he was a villain) performances I've seen of his and Christoph Waltz's performance was spectacular.

I love reservoir dogs (hate pulp fiction) and I'm pretty sure that Django is better.
 
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