Wondering about where to put long backstory

[luthierwnc]

Hello all and thanks for looking. I'm working on my second series of novels. The first was a fan-fic piece that came out pretty well but is way too long. The second is original. In creating the world I wrote three chapters (about 18k words) that are summaries of three historical books written over eight hundred years by an extinct order of scholars. The ruling regime proscribed them as a threat and ruthlessly eradicated both the scribes and the books for the last two hundred years. But they didn't get them all. Obtaining and using this information is a central objective of the two central insurrectionists. The body of the main book only lasts eleven years and runs another 275k words.

I wrote them as the introduction with a narrative style and hints of humor. A couple people I told were skittish about such a long opening since it doesn't get to any major characters. I'm not overfond of long, self-indulgent introductions myself so I'm giving that weight. The information is essential to the story but I don't want to scare-off potential readers. There is other lore at least as long that comes of the search but that is revealed as discovered.

The book is ready for the serious rewrite. I'd love to hear your ideas about whether to leave them in front or splice bits in. Thanks, Skip

 

[Queshire]

Splice bits in. Preferably as small snippets at the start of chapters. Those are always fun.

 

[pmmg]

Splice bits in. Dump what does not flow nicely or find another way.

 

[Penpilot]

The information may be important, but WHEN is it important and how much of it is really necessary? If you design your scenes and the flow of the story right, you can drip the information in a bit at a time, giving the reader enough information to understand things at that moment. You don't have to fire hose everything at once. If people pick up a book expecting a narrative story, and instead get encyclopedia entry after encyclopedia entry, you're going loos a few readers right out of the gate. Give the reader enough to know what's going on, and if there's extra, maybe have an appendix. But make sure that appendix isn't required reading.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think when you say ‘splice’, it sounds like an inelegant afterthought. Weaving information into the story in an artful way would be more along the lines of what I would suggest, having read books where the reader learns information about the fantasy world as the story unfolds in part of the art, and if done well, the reader doesn’t even notice that information being relayed. But it also depends on your style, Tolkien liked to write long, LONG sections of backstory, and that can either be tedious or enjoyable depending on what the reader enjoys in a fantasy novel.

 

[Prince of Spires]

What Penpilot said. Don't dump everything at the front of the book. Very few readers will make it through 3 chapters of background encyclopedia entries by an unknown writer, unless they're exceptionally well written (and even then...).

You often need to give the reader a lot less information than you think. And you definitely don't need to do so right at the start. Only introduce those bits of world the reader can't do without at the beginning. Ask yourself why knowing exactly what's in history books written 800 years ago is essential to characters and readers now. And why can't they discover it along the way?

If the reader really, really must read all this information, consider cutting it up into smaller chunks which you disperse throughout the book. Done like that it can make an interesting read if it works to some twist or climax which is relevant to the story. In the first Mistborn trilogy Sanderson did something like that. He had little epigraphs at the start of each chapter which gave some in world lore which happened a 1000 years ago (or something like that). It showed how the world came to be and that the current ruler wasn't the hero everyone thought he was.

 

[CupofJoe]

If the "histories" are essential to the story, then I have to ask...
Are you starting your story in the right place?
I might make the "histories" part of the main story.
Or have the characters in the main story "discover" the histories as they get pulled into their tale.

 

[luthierwnc]

It's a head-scratcher.

CupofJo; The three chapters are both backstory and critical objectives for secessionists in the region. Each is a summary in the present-day tongue of a much larger work written in a dead language. All were hastily copied by the scholastic order knowing the ruling family planned to ghost them to keep magical secrets a secret. That almost succeeded.

I had the current story-arc in my head and then created the world going back thousands of years following the development of religion, sorcery, language, ethnic profiles, military history and rise of city/states. The last book is specific to the ruling family. There is a fairly detailed map.

For now I'll leave it where it is and do the rewrite looking for places to insert meaningful segments. That will also give me a chance to see how much the gentle reader would need to know at inflection points and what could either wait or hit the trash bin. That is also a good point to consider professional editing. My first piece of fiction was intended to be a weekend short story. It ended up almost 900,000 words long. The muse isn't a problem. Murdering my darlings is.

Thanks again and good luck with your projects, Skip

 

[skip.knox]

A suggestion: keep it all as a separate document. Dive into the story. Resolve not to use *any* of the backstory material. Be serious about that resolve.

At some point in the telling of your story, you may find it impossible to keep something out of the story. At that point, and only at that point, include that one thing from the three chapters. In other words, use only what cannot be avoided.

Once that piece is there, then finesse it. Decide how it's included, who tells it or discovers it, or whether it's in narrative. Consider whether the passage can be re-written such that the piece isn't necessary after all.

Now, I realize you've already written the story, so the above applies to the revision rather than to first draft, but the principle is the same. After a while, you'll start to get a feel for what is absolutely necessary, what is good color, and what is merely ornamental. One of the functions my web site serves is to be home for backstory stuff that doesn't make it into stories but which I can't bear not to tell _somewhere_. I don't kill my children, per the literary advice, I just banish them to a website. <g>


Also, I'm just me (Skip). You're speaking to the whole of the Scribes community!

 

[luthierwnc]

Thanks. Oh, just signing my name. I'm a Skip too. sh

 

[The Dark One]

Do I understand you to be saying that the search for the books is part of the main plot driver?

If that is the case I'd be putting very little indeed of the text into your story. Meaningful snippets placed at the start of chapters would work well.

As Skip Knox said, it's often valuable to have written screeds of backstory but it doesn't have to be dumped into the main story at all. It informs your narrative and deeply enriches your world building because you understand the world and its subler textures so well. Dump the reader straight into your world and its action. They'll work it out - as long as the story is compelling enough to keep their attention..

 

[luthierwnc]

Not a main driver but the books have the complete world-building model. They also inform a lot of the government's military and special ops efforts. My problem is that I thought this out backwards. Lately I've been trying to condense three long trips into two. That hasn't worked so I'll worry about the backstory after I figure out where my characters are going in the here and now. Thanks and I'll look forward to letting you know how things go. sh

 

[rerep33098700]

Hello all and thanks for looking. I'm working on my second series of novels. The first was a fan-fic piece that came out pretty well but is way too long. The second is original. In creating the world I wrote three chapters (about 18k words) that are summaries of three historical books written over eight hundred years by an extinct order of scholars. The ruling regime proscribed them as a threat and ruthlessly eradicated both the scribes and the books for the last two hundred years. But they didn't get them all. Obtaining and using this information is a central objective of the two central insurrectionists. The body of the main book only lasts eleven years and runs another 275k words.

I wrote them as the introduction with a narrative style and hints of humor. A couple people I told were skittish about such a long opening since it doesn't get to any major characters. I'm not overfond of long, self-indulgent introductions myself so I'm giving that weight. The information is essential to the story but I don't want to scare-off potential readers. There is other lore at least as long that comes of the search but that is revealed as discovered.

The book is ready for the serious rewrite. I'd love to hear your ideas about whether to leave them in front or splice bits in. Thanks, Skip

You could put some in the middle or some in the end, but you should do what you feel you should do. Let the reader deal with the lore being in different places. It is fun to put lore in hidden places.

 

[luthierwnc]

Thanks rerep33098700. The book(s) are read for beta reading so I'll get some ideas there. First I have to find beta readers! Cheers, sh

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Thanks. Oh, just signing my name. I'm a Skip too. sh

Yes... but are you also 3 racoo- er, uh, totally human women in a trench coat? Or even a hydra with too many feels and muchly stories used to inflict them on others?

Team Lowan - not kidding, that's what everyone calls us - seems to have a kink for names written with Alt-codes and spoilering our own stuff. Our timeline is an utterly massive one that spans across three Ages of the World and about 60 years into the future and is a multigenerational family saga about the difference a small but dedicated group of people can make in the world. I need to count again but I think we're closing in on 1000 named series characters. We have the Good, the Bad, and the WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? Gods, monsters, magicians, and the ones caught in the crossfire.

It's Urban Fantasy.

So, all ya'll who are going on this journey with us, buckle on up. We're still ticking our way on up the first hill of this rollercoaster. Gonna be a ride.

But, OP needs an actual answer. How do we tell backstory? It's like feeding a baby. Not everything is going to get eated. (Three entire sentences before I code switch to toddler? This is what kids do to you.) Not even all of the eated stuff is going to stay in the baby. Mostly, what you end up with at the first shot is a mess with carefully homemade mashed peas all over the place... except in the baby. And you on the floor, peas in your hair joining what you hope are the teething biscuits from earlier, while your diapered overlord crows his victory to the cat.

Cat thinks you deserve it. What idiot eats mashed peas?

I've been away from writing for a few days. Can you tell?

Anyway, your backstory. The best way to avoid ye olde info dump is to not info dump. I know, seems a bit simplistic, but that's it in a nutshell. You only give the backstory to explain why your story works the way that it does at the point where the reader needs the information to keep going with the plot. In my little example the peas are your backstory, of course. And I'm with the cat. What the hell, man?

Okay, this is a wee teaser from our next offering in the Books of Binding. You're going to notice that I blow a ton of information past the reader, but most of the time they never notice. Why? Because they're usually too busy being entertained. This is how we do it. It's a little long, but the chapter I pulled this out of is much longer and I am also an insufferable showoff. Spoiler tags because we love you guys!

~~~
From All the Devils: The Fourth Book of Binding

Spoiler: Spoiler and Character Intro for All the Devils: The Fourth Book of Binding

Killian was having a good day.

May was a great time to work the streets in outdoorsy Seattle. People, lots of them tourists with phones or little plastic maps in hand, left their jackets behind and came out to enjoy the relative warmth and sunshine. Some left clouds of earthy, acrid smoke as they passed, apparently unaware that Hemp Fest had been in April. Not that it mattered, much. Pot was legal, and now that Killian was twenty-one no one would say boo to him about it. Maybe once he was tucked away safe in his little bolt hole he’d have a little smoke, himself.

But that was for later. Now was for work, and the cheerful sunshine made it all the easier. He had a good crowd, warm and content with their camera phones out and bellies full of lunch from the various eateries around Pioneer Square and the International District. Some of those phones were pointed at him. He was fine with that. They wouldn’t be able to capture what he was doing, not at this distance, and even if they did, all they would record would be a moment of static.

Human technology couldn’t keep up with real magic.

Killian held up a seven of clubs. “Is this your card?”

The lady in front of him shook her head, her hair sprayed so stiff in that one short hairstyle all women of a certain age seemed to sport that even the fragments of salt wind coming off the water didn’t tickle a single tuft.

Killian made a show of thinking. “Well, it’s got to be around here somewhere.” He tucked his hand into one of his pockets and pulled out a four of diamonds. “Is it… no, this is from the last trick. Let’s let it go.”

The card suddenly fluttered, and in a moment a pigeon struggled free from his fingers and flew off, impressing the crowd mightily.

Killian sensed movement, and out of the corner of his magical sight he saw a teenage Japanese girl slip between two onlookers, a man and a woman, and the small bulge pressed against the outer side of the woman’s purse flattened out. At sixteen, Sakiko was the oldest of his crew and the best. She could perform a lift without ever touching whatever item she liberated. She also didn’t need to see what she was going in after, very advanced magic for her age, or so he’d been told. One little bit of magic and that small bulge now added weight to one of Sakiko’s many inner jacket pockets.

Killian kept the show going, making sure all eyes were on him. He patted his thinning jeans, the pockets on his flashy new black canvas trench coat, and even looked down his own sleeves, making the small crowd chuckle.

Meanwhile, his two ‘assistants’ moved in a careful dance. No one saw their hands move — no human would, because no human could sense the magic all around them — so no one felt the lifts as the kids liberated their valuables.

Finally, Killian looked up at the woman and gave her a bright smile. “One last place to look. Ma’am, if you could make a fist facing down. Perfect. Now turn your palm up.” He grinned, putting a little extra flirt into it. It was a good grin, and he knew it. It always got him some extra cash in the hat and was more than worth the drain on his limited magic to add some extra shine. “Okay, open your hand. Is this your card?”

Above the woman’s palm was the queen of spades, floating about an inch above her skin and slowly rotating in the air at a jaunty angle. It sparkled softly in the May sunshine like it was coated in pixie dust or something. Killian had no idea what was with the sparkling. His magic — and that of every illusionist he’s ever met — just felt the need to be fabulous? Who knew? The woman squealed with delight as she nodded her enthusiastic confirmation.

Killian plucked the card from the air and held it out with a showy flourish. “You may keep this, then.” He bent and caught up the ratty black top hat he’d found in a dumpster behind a theater a while back, and not counting the seed money he’d tossed in there at the start of his performance it was an okay take. “I hope everyone enjoyed the show. I know I was delighted to meet you all. And now, I must go.” Killian watched his crew melt away from his audience, each picking a different direction. They just needed a few more seconds… and they were gone.

Killian snapped his sleeves tight against the heels of his hands. “Everyone have a great day. Enjoy Seattle!” And he whipped the trench coat once around himself, murmuring a softly resonant Word of Command — one of the very few he knew — and activating the misdirection wards that were embroidered into the seams of the lining, he then smirked as he heard the gasps and whispers of astonishment as he seemed to vanish before their eyes.

He was still there, of course. The humans just couldn’t see him. He didn’t remember learning how to cast misdirection wards, just that he’d always known them and thought it was funny as hell to use them to hide from his mom when he was little.

His mother hadn’t thought it was funny. The last thing she said to him before leaving him sitting alone on a wooden bench with nothing but his school backpack was, “Never, ever, do the magic again.” Not, ‘I love you.’ Not, ‘How can I do this to you?’ She just stood up with something like fear in her eyes and left him in that ugly, sterile, courthouse hallway.

She hadn’t even looked back before she pushed open the outer doors and was gone.

He’d maybe been five. Seven? Something like that.

 

[Malik]

The readers don't need backstory. You, the author, do. Backstory is critical to maintaining characterization; i.e., making sure the characters stay true to themselves.

Only--ONLY--if there's a plot point hinging on some fact in a character's backstory, do you ever need to mention it. Even then, you probably don't. Just have them act they way they would act, had they done the thing.

And for the love of God, don't make a character's backstory you prologue.

 

[luthierwnc]

I've already bled a lot of this into the text. I can't claim what I did makes this story unique but it creates narrative pressures you don't get in Tolkien. One; the backstory is the complete history of how magic was artificially created on this continent when people with very minor powers purposely interbred with their like in far-flung lands. That took hundreds of years and subsumed all of the prior religions. It also defines the military landscape.

Two; colleges of study dating before this phenomenon delved into esoteric detail on all sorts of things. One of them cataloged sorcerous techniques as part of their overall historical brief. When a plague destroyed the wizards until the genes adapted (another couple hundred years), the information this college archived became rare and valuable. The current ruling family wants to find hidden volumes and make sure no one else gets them first. Destroying the college and several like it didn't yield much.

Access, concealment and adaptive use of this information is important to the powers-that-be and powers that would like to be. Finding these data is a central motivation. A very large (and probably delete-able) section in the second book details how the last of the college members escaped and stored the texts -- even translating them from a dead language to the current tongue for those capable of doing something about it. It's unnecessary but there are hints that help move the story along. I had fun writing it. Now that the books are ready for ruthless beta reading we'll see how long it lasts.

So the backstory isn't about any living character. It's how they became what they are. Right now I'm thinking of putting the three chapters in as an appendix so readers can crack it open if they care.

Thanks for the comments, Skip

 

[Fidel]

Yes... but are you also 3 racoo- er, uh, totally human women in a trench coat? Or even a hydra with too many feels and muchly stories used to inflict them on others?

Team Lowan - not kidding, that's what everyone calls us - seems to have a kink for names written with Alt-codes and spoilering our own stuff. Our timeline is an utterly massive one that spans across three Ages of the World and about 60 years into the future and is a multigenerational family saga about the difference a small but dedicated group of people can make in the world. I need to count again but I think we're closing in on 1000 named series characters. We have the Good, the Bad, and the WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? Gods, monsters, magicians, and the ones caught in the crossfire.

It's Urban Fantasy.

So, all ya'll who are going on this journey with us, buckle on up. We're still ticking our way on up the first hill of this rollercoaster. Gonna be a ride.

But, OP needs an actual answer. How do we tell backstory? It's like feeding a baby. Not everything is going to get eated. (Three entire sentences before I code switch to toddler? This is what kids do to you.) Not even all of the eated stuff is going to stay in the baby. Mostly, what you end up with at the first shot is a mess with carefully homemade mashed peas all over the place... except in the baby. And you on the floor, peas in your hair joining what you hope are the teething biscuits from earlier, while your diapered overlord crows his victory to the cat.

Cat thinks you deserve it. What idiot eats mashed peas?

I've been away from writing for a few days. Can you tell?

Anyway, your backstory. The best way to avoid ye olde info dump is to not info dump. I know, seems a bit simplistic, but that's it in a nutshell. You only give the backstory to explain why your story works the way that it does at the point where the reader needs the information to keep going with the plot. In my little example the peas are your backstory, of course. And I'm with the cat. What the hell, man?

Okay, this is a wee teaser from our next offering in the Books of Binding. You're going to notice that I blow a ton of information past the reader, but most of the time they never notice. Why? Because they're usually too busy being entertained. This is how we do it. It's a little long, but the chapter I pulled this out of is much longer and I am also an insufferable showoff. Spoiler tags because we love you guys!

~~~
From All the Devils: The Fourth Book of Binding

Spoiler: Spoiler and Character Intro for All the Devils: The Fourth Book of Binding

Killian was having a good day.

May was a great time to work the streets in outdoorsy Seattle. People, lots of them tourists with phones or little plastic maps in hand, left their jackets behind and came out to enjoy the relative warmth and sunshine. Some left clouds of earthy, acrid smoke as they passed, apparently unaware that Hemp Fest had been in April. Not that it mattered, much. Pot was legal, and now that Killian was twenty-one no one would say boo to him about it. Maybe once he was tucked away safe in his little bolt hole he’d have a little smoke, himself.

But that was for later. Now was for work, and the cheerful sunshine made it all the easier. He had a good crowd, warm and content with their camera phones out and bellies full of lunch from the various eateries around Pioneer Square and the International District. Some of those phones were pointed at him. He was fine with that. They wouldn’t be able to capture what he was doing, not at this distance, and even if they did, all they would record would be a moment of static.

Human technology couldn’t keep up with real magic.

Killian held up a seven of clubs. “Is this your card?”

The lady in front of him shook her head, her hair sprayed so stiff in that one short hairstyle all women of a certain age seemed to sport that even the fragments of salt wind coming off the water didn’t tickle a single tuft.

Killian made a show of thinking. “Well, it’s got to be around here somewhere.” He tucked his hand into one of his pockets and pulled out a four of diamonds. “Is it… no, this is from the last trick. Let’s let it go.”

The card suddenly fluttered, and in a moment a pigeon struggled free from his fingers and flew off, impressing the crowd mightily.

Killian sensed movement, and out of the corner of his magical sight he saw a teenage Japanese girl slip between two onlookers, a man and a woman, and the small bulge pressed against the outer side of the woman’s purse flattened out. At sixteen, Sakiko was the oldest of his crew and the best. She could perform a lift without ever touching whatever item she liberated. She also didn’t need to see what she was going in after, very advanced magic for her age, or so he’d been told. One little bit of magic and that small bulge now added weight to one of Sakiko’s many inner jacket pockets.

Killian kept the show going, making sure all eyes were on him. He patted his thinning jeans, the pockets on his flashy new black canvas trench coat, and even looked down his own sleeves, making the small crowd chuckle.

Meanwhile, his two ‘assistants’ moved in a careful dance. No one saw their hands move — no human would, because no human could sense the magic all around them — so no one felt the lifts as the kids liberated their valuables.

Finally, Killian looked up at the woman and gave her a bright smile. “One last place to look. Ma’am, if you could make a fist facing down. Perfect. Now turn your palm up.” He grinned, putting a little extra flirt into it. It was a good grin, and he knew it. It always got him some extra cash in the hat and was more than worth the drain on his limited magic to add some extra shine. “Okay, open your hand. Is this your card?”

Above the woman’s palm was the queen of spades, floating about an inch above her skin and slowly rotating in the air at a jaunty angle. It sparkled softly in the May sunshine like it was coated in pixie dust or something. Killian had no idea what was with the sparkling. His magic — and that of every illusionist he’s ever met — just felt the need to be fabulous? Who knew? The woman squealed with delight as she nodded her enthusiastic confirmation.

Killian plucked the card from the air and held it out with a showy flourish. “You may keep this, then.” He bent and caught up the ratty black top hat he’d found in a dumpster behind a theater a while back, and not counting the seed money he’d tossed in there at the start of his performance it was an okay take. “I hope everyone enjoyed the show. I know I was delighted to meet you all. And now, I must go.” Killian watched his crew melt away from his audience, each picking a different direction. They just needed a few more seconds… and they were gone.

Killian snapped his sleeves tight against the heels of his hands. “Everyone have a great day. Enjoy Seattle!” And he whipped the trench coat once around himself, murmuring a softly resonant Word of Command — one of the very few he knew — and activating the misdirection wards that were embroidered into the seams of the lining, he then smirked as he heard the gasps and whispers of astonishment as he seemed to vanish before their eyes.

He was still there, of course. The humans just couldn’t see him. He didn’t remember learning how to cast misdirection wards, just that he’d always known them and thought it was funny as hell to use them to hide from his mom when he was little.

His mother hadn’t thought it was funny. The last thing she said to him before leaving him sitting alone on a wooden bench with nothing but his school backpack was, “Never, ever, do the magic again.” Not, ‘I love you.’ Not, ‘How can I do this to you?’ She just stood up with something like fear in her eyes and left him in that ugly, sterile, courthouse hallway.

She hadn’t even looked back before she pushed open the outer doors and was gone.

He’d maybe been five. Seven? Something like that.

Wow, your world-building sounds absolutely massive and intricate, 1000 named characters? That’s next-level dedication! Love the mix of gods, monsters, and magicians with a side of chaos. Your analogy about feeding a baby (and the mashed peas) is hilarious and spot-on, backstory should be served in small, digestible bites, not force-fed. And yeah, keeping readers entertained while slipping in the info is the way to go. Can’t wait to see more of your work, sounds like a wild ride!

 

[Fidel]

I've already bled a lot of this into the text. I can't claim what I did makes this story unique but it creates narrative pressures you don't get in Tolkien. One; the backstory is the complete history of how magic was artificially created on this continent when people with very minor powers purposely interbred with their like in far-flung lands. That took hundreds of years and subsumed all of the prior religions. It also defines the military landscape.

Two; colleges of study dating before this phenomenon delved into esoteric detail on all sorts of things. One of them cataloged sorcerous techniques as part of their overall historical brief. When a plague destroyed the wizards until the genes adapted (another couple hundred years), the information this college archived became rare and valuable. The current ruling family wants to find hidden volumes and make sure no one else gets them first. Destroying the college and several like it didn't yield much.

Access, concealment and adaptive use of this information is important to the powers-that-be and powers that would like to be. Finding these data is a central motivation. A very large (and probably delete-able) section in the second book details how the last of the college members escaped and stored the texts -- even translating them from a dead language to the current tongue for those capable of doing something about it. It's unnecessary but there are hints that help move the story along. I had fun writing it. Now that the books are ready for ruthless beta reading we'll see how long it lasts.

So the backstory isn't about any living character. It's how they became what they are. Right now I'm thinking of putting the three chapters in as an appendix so readers can crack it open if they care.

Thanks for the comments, Skip

Your world-building sounds incredibly rich and layered, love the idea of magic being artificially created through centuries of interbreeding and the political intrigue around the lost college texts. The backstory adds so much depth to the current conflicts, and it’s clear you’ve put a ton of thought into it. Turning those detailed chapters into an appendix is a smart move, it keeps the main narrative tight while still offering the lore for those who want to dive deeper.