Commiserate with me...

[Caged Maiden]

Hello friends! (I need help organizing my thoughts and strategizing my next writing move)

I've been absent for a few weeks, and have been struggling to write consistently for the last half a year. I wanted to ask some serious questions, and share my experiences. I know many of you know how I got started, know how big my stack of unfinished work is, and have traded with me, chatted with me, or otherwise shared this journey in the past five years. Thanks for that, by the way!

Recently, I had a really stark awakening. It was after that "Serious Writer Voice" article. I realized I'd been taking my work that I loved, and vanilla-ing it all down into something I felt was neat and non-polarizing in its execution, if not in its subject matter. But I was SO WRONG! And now I'm undoing all the damage I caused. But here's the thing...I'm really confused.

And so I'm asking you folks for advice, because I'm not sure what I'm doing anymore. My first three books are totally awful, so I'm not even going to think about them again ever. But I continued a series from there and fell in love with some of the stories. That's my fantasy series, and if I eliminate the first three, there are 5 more of them written, and one that's concept-only, but it's in the middle of the remaining ones. So there are those, and I like them and think they're pretty good story-wise (as in, worth rewriting so the quality is professional). Then, I have a stand alone novel you've all heard me talk about endlessly, similar to Renaissance Venice. The problem I've run into on this one is that it's too long. Like hella long, and I trimmed all I could, but then I noticed I cut "me" out, and eliminated my tone and style, for the sake of brevity. Plus, the story has some issues, but it's not unfixable. The main thing I realized was that readers have a hard time getting their bearing in the story because right from page one, there's a whole lot going on, because the inciting incident happened two years before the story opened. So either I need to learn more about how to tell a revenge tale, or I need to do my other inclination...write a prequel. I know, please stop cringing, I said it, and I'd grab my shirt collars and shake some sense into me too.

So a prequel...the point of that is that two of the story's MCs (of a cast of 7 MCs in the original story) would be center stage, and everything complicated in the original story, began in the past. So if I go back and write it out, then opening the other story might not be so awful, because there'll be all the history available in bite-sized portions in the prequel. And to be honest, I just haven't found a way to strategize the original novel in a way that any readers really like. I can open here, I can open there, I can make this guy more prominent, or watch her story first, but every way I slice it, the story is complicated and there's no convenient way to ease a reader into it, because I've tried every way I can think of, and I'm just doing so bad I'm ready to give up.

And that brings me to where I am now. I can write. I can craft deep characters and unique scenarios. I can be funny if I don't try too hard. And naturally capture a range of emotions that reflect each character's individuality. But my stories still suck. And I'm not sure what to do about that. I know part of it is that I just read them too much. But part of it is that I'm still searching for my goal. Like, it's easy for me to say, "I'm going to write so the tone of this story is just like The Lies of Locke Lamora, or Swordspoint" (since those stories are very similar in tone to mine). But the problem I'm having is that I was developing my "serious writer voice" because I thought that was what we were supposed to do. And I kept writing and shelving things, and now I'm 14 years into this journey, with a massive collection of written words, but nothing to really show for it.

How do I deal with that? How can I strategize where to go from here? I know some of you are really strategic about your writing, and I feel like a hopeless starving artist right now, unable to just make and implement a plan, tough I plan all the time! Can anyone offer me some counsel? My goal is to finish a couple things, but I keep derailing my own train by not knowing what my goal should be, and I hear how childish that sounds in my own head, but I've done my best and failed to create goals and a linear method for working. It didn't go as planned, so I stopped writing because I couldn't take the next step. To complete the next step I had for myself (rewrite a detailed outline for the novel I'm currently editing), I'm going to have to take time and a lot of working outside my comfort level, to learn how to do the kind of outline I think I need, when in my head, I don't even want to do it or think I need it, and I'm just happy to scribble notes in a notebook and just write the story.

All the advice says, "Find something that works for you," and I've found a lot of great things that do work for me, but I'm in need of a few more advanced strategies, because I'm having a really hard time taking my second draft manuscripts into what I think looks like a professional product. (I'm having a really hard time in trying to understand whether I've got enough detail to engage an audience, but not so much it's heavy-handed, and the worst part is that when I get feedback from betas, one wants more detail and the other tells me to scrap the detail because it's erroneous.) Now, that's just one example of how I'm confused about my style and tone, and how it affects readers, but the problem is bigger than just that. I'm now so paranoid, I am avoiding writing out of FEAR. I'm afraid of going too far off track, of writing something I think is great, but then it's inconsistent in tone or style to other sections. I'm just plain agitated and anxious anytime I think about writing lately. I'm afraid of hearing another confusing crit. I feel like I've failed at all of this and was a good sport throughout, but now I just need someone rational to help me weed through all the confusing thoughts, and help me figure out what I need to do.

Any takers? I'm trying to do the, "Do YOU love this, Anita?" strategy, but it's not really working because I no longer know what I love. I'm just trying not to fail at this point, and it's definitely not helping me. I feel rather unhealthy when I think about writing.

I'm unsure whether my problem is that I need to turn writing into a recipe I follow that will yield the results I'm hoping for (because I've never believed much in formulaic writing as a definitive tactic to achieve professional quality), or whether I need to just take an extended break and rejuvenate (which I've been doing and keep getting back to the same stress level in shorter periods of time), or whether I just need to cut ties, do my best, and send stuff to someone else to edit, and just get over it. The worst thing is, I can totally write new stuff at any time, but then I do the same things to it, too. This isn't behavior I'm exhibiting over one terribly problematic work, I've developed as a destructive pattern. I'm like a meth-head picking scabs on her face...I can't remember life before I tampered and over-edited everything, reading it dozens of times and changing very little because I felt it was good, but I was just so afraid there might be something bad in there. and so I'd add in a couple little lines for "clarity" and soon, it's bloated and horrible. I worry so much about everything being perfect, I'm creating shambling zombie monstrosities that feel over-manipulated. And all I want is the feeling that I have achieved a level of professionalism, but in reality, I've gone off the deep end. How does one judge whether their writing is professional quality? That's the question I so need to answer, because one can't simply look at other books. Their nuances are too many to provide accurate comparison.

Help!

 

[Caged Maiden]

Hey folks, I'm back, like less than an hour after feeling like I wanted to throw up from just thinking about writing. I've done a couple things that has made me feel some small amount better. First, I went through the novel I'm currently editing, and deleted all the erroneous files. I saved a first draft, an old critique of that draft that was done on the whole story, and a couple other pertinent crits and drafts. Multiple March drafts? Gone. Down to one, the final one from March, right?

Okay, so just a little file housekeeping lightens my burden because sometimes I look at my multiple saves and feel like I may have inadvertently been working on one and then gotten confused and opened another, to begin editing on that one on accident? Yeah, I'm just better off with one open and working file, and then save that draft if I make major changes. Okay, so YA!, there's one thing that works for me.

Second, I wanted to illustrate my problems with organizing my thoughts. I realize I probably just sound dumb and lazy, for saying that I don't have much success with outlines. I assure you, I've spent a ton of time trying to make outlines work, but for me, there is a disconnect between how thoughts happen very rapid-fire in my head, and how I then spin them into something that has feelings. I just wanted to illustrate it in the hopes someone else here might have the same problem and be able to share their strategy. I realize this may be part of being bipolar, and my writing certainly is very reliant on my ability to think, so it sort of has a dependency on the bipolar behaving. Here's a few examples of my honest-to-goodness best attempts at outlining:

She was once a scared girl, who felt abandoned when the old lady who cared for her died. Her life was turned upside down when she had to leave a village where she lived her whole life, raised by a witch, and had to make her own way. She had a horrible life as a young person, and turned to selling drugs because she didn't want to be a prostitute, but needed to work to support herself. That was how she met Strange and got involved with the criminal side of Brazelton. She maybe stepped on Lion's toes, encroaching on his turf, and rather than banish her or deal with her, he brought her on board, because he saw her as more than she was. He liked that she's real and rather cold and unfeeling. She does what needs to be done and is really intelligent. That's why he brought her into his home to work as his spy and undermine the other dons' networks, keeping an eye on their business and handling things the way his brash, hot-headed young men couldn't.

I mean...there's no need for me to explain why this is problematic, though it was only meant as a sketch to figure out background. I really lack specify, and that kills my outlines.

Part 4
The mercenary leaves Liltha with the book, but he has to stop and free Roan from imprisonment. He’s got a plan to keep the young werewolf from talking to Jarren–a ring he forces Roan to swallow, that prevents telepathy. He leaves Roan to contemplate how he’ll relay the truth to Jarren later, if he dares.
Part 5
Leomere reveals the cause for his anxiety–a statue that may be a living dragon, frozen in time. He tells a tale about an old temple that once housed four dragon sentinels. He believes three of the sentinels are a trio of statues he’s seen, and the fourth, is the famous fire dragon, Tiraconis, who hasn’t been seen in a millennium.
He knows where one of the statues is, and he gives it to Jarren. The other two he suspects are in a tomb in Mist. He says he’ll help Jarren find them.

Yeah, heres another gem. What rubbish. I just can't be more detailed in an outline for some reason. If I try to get more detailed, I end up writing in lines of dialogue or specifics about the character's feelings. This is really tough for me, and I struggle with it constantly. I can write, but I cannot summarize. I can't outline, but I can jot down notes. In fact, my notebooks are full of great little brainstorms and awesome ideas, and I can use the really effectively...all until i try to turn it into an outline.

Problem is, I make this kind of shitty outline, and then I end up staring at it and not knowing what it even means. I mean...why would I even bother to write any of these details down? They're so basic and surface-deep, I can remember all that. But if I try to get a comprehensive outline going on, it breaks down into just writing...weird.

Okay, so this is super embarrassing, but there it is. And no matter how many times I really attempt to write a great outline, it comes out the same. Either all or nothing. Frustrating.

 

[Velka]

Hi CM,

I think crippling self-doubt is something many writers suffer from. You have lots of questions and I don't really have any answers. I do have two pieces of advice though, take from them what you will:

1. Read Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Part memoir, part writing advice, part I don't know what, but she does go a lot into the self-destructive doubt and crippling imposter syndrome that being a writer can invoke. Some of it is dross, but there's nuggets in there that keep me coming back to it whenever I'm in a creative confidence tail-spin.

2. One of the recurring themes that I picked up on is your fear if other people will like what you wrote. You've been trying so hard, for so long, to shape your art into something that everyone will enjoy and I'm getting the impression that a lot of your writing is now being done under that impossible shadow.

You're wondering what to do about your series, but personally, I don't think you're in the right frame of mind to be tackling those really big questions right now. You need to get your head straight first and get back to basics.

It sounds like your voice has been lost in the cacophony of crits and betas and opinions. It happened to me and, like you, it kinda broke my vision and confidence in what I wanted to create. One big help, aside from taking some time off from writing altogether, was writing purely for myself without the premise of sharing it with others. Freeing myself from the looming spectre of "what other people will think" reminded me of why I want to write in the first place.

So, write something for yourself. Purely for yourself. Swear an oath that you will never show it to another living soul and write a scene, or a short story that is only something you, and you alone, really want to read. Give yourself permission to include info dumps a mile high, purple prose so vibrant that it makes your teeth hurt, paragraphs of description, or none at all - anything that you love about the craft. Then do it over and over again until writing is something that is enjoyable, comfortable, and rewarding. Voice and tone will settle and even out once you stop hammering it with criticism and doubt.

Think about master painters and chefs, they create their vision and those who appreciate it do, and those who think it uses too much purple or salt be damned.

Edit: I was writing this when you posted your follow up. When it comes to outlining I am in the same leaky boat. I'm slowly reforming myself from being a 'pantser' but it's hard and messy and I don't know what I'm doing either.

 

[Heliotrope]

Hi CM,


It sounds like your voice has been lost in the cacophony of crits and betas and opinions. It happened to me and, like you, it kinda broke my vision and confidence in what I wanted to create. One big help, aside from taking some time off from writing altogether, was writing purely for myself without the premise of sharing it with others. Freeing myself from the looming spectre of "what other people will think" reminded me of why I want to write in the first place.

So, write something for yourself. Purely for yourself. Swear an oath that you will never show it to another living soul and write a scene, or a short story that is only something you, and you alone, really want to read. Give yourself permission to include info dumps a mile high, purple prose so vibrant that it makes your teeth hurt, paragraphs of description, or none at all - anything that you love about the craft. Then do it over and over again until writing is something that is enjoyable, comfortable, and rewarding. Voice and tone will settle and even out once you stop hammering it with criticism and doubt.

Think about master painters and chefs, they create their vision and those who appreciate it do, and those who think it uses too much purple or salt be damned.
.

I can only respond as a fellow amateur, but I agree with Velka 100%.

Not everyone is going to like your stuff. I LOVED Velka's Top Scribe challenge story. Loved it. I would have rated it a 25 for sure. ThinkerX did not share my enthusiasm.

For myself, I had to do what Velka just suggested. I write for myself. I write the story that I feel compelled to write. I write it the way it forms in my head without thinking about the rules.

I've turned renegade.

I've never like rules at the best of times, and when I join a forum like this that seems to be heavily dictated by rules it makes my rebel nature absolutely insane.

I like outlines. I do. For long pieces I need to know where I"m going and how I'm going to get there. But it is boring as shit.

I love writing shorts because I just free write. I just let my imagination go nuts. So that is what I'm doing right now. That is what makes me happy. I've stopped trying to write for anyone else.

Oddly enough, I'm happy with writing again I love it again. I love telling MY stories, MY way. And if other people like them all the better. If they don't, who cares. I wasn't writing for them anyways.

Example, my short I'm working on right now for the Top Scribe 2 challenge I LOVE. But I already know ThinkerX will hate it. I have broken every single rule. I start with description. Not a hook to be found. I start with exposition and back story for 800 words! lol. But it is my story, and I'm telling it the way I feel in my gut it needs to be told. I'm not trying to win challenges. I'm trying to tell good stories.

The Fig Boy Who Flew Away

The Piazza Rusticucci was not one of Rome’s most prestigious neighborhoods. A short walk from the Vatican, the nondescript square was part of a maze of streets and densely packed shops and houses that ran west from where the Ponte Sant’Angelo crossed the River Tiber. A trough for livestock stood at its center, next to a fountain, while on its east side was a modest church with a tiny belfry. In the year of our Lord 1510 this humble church, Santa Caterina delle Cavallerotte was too new to be important. It housed none of the bones of saints, shards from the True Cross, or strips of the burial shroud of Christ that each year brought thousands of pilgrims to Rome from all over Christendom. However, behind this church, in a narrow street crisscrossed above by a vast network of drying laundry, there could be found the workshop of one of the most sought-after artists in Italy: a flat-nosed, shabbily dressed, ill-tempered sculpture from Florence, and above this workshop the immaculate home of a brick cutter, Duccio Benedetti and his pious Spanish wife, Antonia.


See?

But who cares? I like it. I think this is the right way to start my story.

Write your story your way.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I'll remind you of a conversation we once had about this very topic....

I don't recall who said this, but I think it's true:

Your best writing comes when you're on the edge of embarrassing yourself.

When we undertake creative endeavors we must learn to let go of inhibition. There's a genuine quality inherent in work like that, but many of us are learning to get to this point.

Think of a famous actor. I'm not talking about the pretty people who star in movies solely based on looks. I'm talking about the truly talented actors.

Do you think that ability came naturally or easily? Don't you think it took a lot of hard work to become someone else entirely when others are watching and cameras are rolling? An actor must break free of all inhibition. They must behave as if no audience is watching, knowing full well people are watching. It's no different with a painter, a sculptor, or singer, or a writer.

Maybe you should stop worrying about who you should be & just be you. The real you. The you that sings in the shower when nobody is home. I KNOW you have genuine life experiences others would find interesting. We've talked about them. Make characters that convey who and what you are, what your life is all about, what you feel.

Stories, after all, are windows to other lives. Put the natural, genuine you on the page.

 

[Incanus]

I second (or would that be third or fourth by now?) Velka’s thoughts.

I’m thinking you need to take a break from working on the backlog of novels. But, in a way, it is not the novels themselves, but the approach and attitude toward them that you need a break from. However long ago any one of them may have been first penned, you might still be too close or attached to them, in one way or another.

I thought of one little thing that could help shake things up for you a little, or just provide a slightly different perspective: pick up a couple of short story anthologies or compilations (short stories by different authors) and read them cover to cover. I often get inspired by seeing short examples of a wide variety of writing styles and stories, all taken in over a short period. Sometimes a fresh little idea that someone has done, or even a cool little phrase, gets me all excited about my own stuff again. Of course, you’ll see a bunch of stuff you don’t care for as well, but that can be inspiring in a different direction (like—I should be able to do something at least this good, right?).

Otherwise, I can only commiserate a bit. I write with feeling of the Sword of Damocles hanging over me. I know—KNOW—my characters are thin shadows. I’ve yet to develop a character that readers relate to, or sufficiently understand. The way I’m going, I may never develop this skill. But I’m trying. I have to. As you know, I’m nearing the end of my first draft of my first novel. Right now, it’s all plot and ideas. There’s only a wisp of character stuff, and not much depth at this point. I have a great deal of trepidation about the upcoming revision (in fact, I’m kind of terrified). This revision will make or break the story, in my view. My first draft contains only the kinds of things I’m already half-way decent at. The revision is where I get to find out whether or not I can break new ground with my characters. I see my whole writing world as hinging on this revision.

Even with all the great help and advice (no small amount of it from you!), it will ultimately be up to me to make this work.

Anyway, that’s all I have for now. Hang in there! And don’t forget to acknowledge your strengths (which you most certainly have), as well as addressing your weaknesses.

 

[Chessie]

Anita, I'm with you in heart! All of us have our weaknesses and strengths in writing. Your strength is persistence and a real willingness to learn/improve. You write very well. But your weakness is tinkering (just as mine is overloading on projects). The important thing is that you recognize what that weakness is and work on improving from there.

None of us can tell you what to do with your writing career, but we can help steer your thoughts in a helpful direction. Here's my suggestions:

1) Please consider reading these books:

-The Pursuit of Perfection, Kathryn Rusch
-Writing Into The Dark, Dean Wesley Smith

If you want to learn how to stop tinkering and tormenting yourself with over editing, then you're better off applying that to a new project which leads me to...

2) Start a new project. Make it a small one, short story or novelette, something short that you can cycle back---> edit for typos or mistakes BUT NOT PROSE, and one that is small enough to edit in 1-2 passes.

3) Do a novella collection with me. PM me on this one.

I sincerely think you'd benefit into at least looking into going Indie. It's a lot of work, yes, but a career writing fiction is worth the blood, sweat, and tears. Your work needs to be out in the world in some sort of fashion. Start with small goals and work your way up. It might be time to take the next step.

 

[ThinkerX]

Caged, did you catch my review of your 'Top Scribe' entry? I made a couple of comments there that pertain to this.

 

[Caged Maiden]

HA! Thinker, no, I came here today to share what weighed on my mind, and to be honest, I haven't really been in the writing mood for weeks, so I've sort of been absent. I'll have a look at it. Not that I edited a thing in that story...HA!

So here's the deal with new projects... When we tell people to get some distance, we do so for a few reasons, one bing that we believe they'll be so in love with their work that they'll be unable or unwilling to change things, which isn't me at all, and if anything, I have the exact opposite problem--anytime anyone suggests something, I feel like I should do that instead of my original ideas, because don't all my ideas suck anyways? Yes, sometimes, they're terrible, but sometimes I change things because I just trust other people more than I do myself. The second reason we tell people to take some space from their past work is to give them a clean slate, so they aren't working with old research, bound by rules set down at some previous point, or otherwise stuck in the past and therefore looking backward rather than forward. Now, I'm not trying to look backwards, but I concede there is a certain amount of "still need this event to happen" that can become difficult.

So let's say I start a completely new project. I have about 5 good ideas right now, that I've wanted to write for a while, and some of them have outlines or exploratory first chapters written. But the problem is, I still feel the need to do this thing I've been doing. I don't know how to turn it off anymore. I'll kill myself over writing the most basic and useless outline, hitting on three really big things to happen, but leaving the minutia unsaid, those things that are most important to a story, and then I'll pants a few chapters at a time, each time, reading what came before, so I'm overly-familiar with the material until I feel numb reading it.

That's the problem. I can't feel anything about my writing anymore. All I have left is the ability to objectively identify what things are. As in, I can call stuff what it is, I can intentionally make changes, like swap out a paragraph of erroneous snippety description for a pertinent character lens-style deeper take on the scene, still in a paragraph, but I can't identify if that's what the story needs, or whether it even has the right feeling.

Let me illustrate it on my opening, please, because I've never heard of anyone else having this problem as bad as I have it.

The faint green glow surrounding Daveed, the man across the table from Raisa, was an anomaly she couldn’t explain, a peculiarity often attributed to eccentric wise women–just a nice way of saying witch. While Raisa didn’t consider the brief and unannounced appearances of the oddity a skill, any more than drunkenness was a skill learned by imbibing, it had its merits. Past experience taught her that a person’s aura flickered like a candle near a window when they were deceitful, and Daveed’s had flickered twice in the last breath he sucked between sneering lips. He checked but didn’t raise. Not yet, but he would.

Raisa picked up her cards as play passed from quiet, smug Daveed to his polar opposite, the unreserved socialite of Brazelton’s criminal underbelly, Andrew Strange.

Through a curtain of cigar smoke, an ironwork chandelier’s light filtered down, imbuing the ballroom with a warm ambience that made the gambling tables below seem intimate despite the constant din of party attendees. From her vantage point on the gallery, Raisa perched above a sea of stale bodies, debating how she wanted to play the pair of knaves under her left palm.

Despite strong hole cards and being up coins overall, she battled a lingering dour mood. Lion overruled her when she wanted to order centerpieces to dress the hall in fragrant autumn blooms, claiming the hired security for the evening cost him too much to spend any more on frills. But he’d spent twice as much for booze as they’d settled on, and a dozen boxes of infused cigars managed to make their way into the party and onto the bill. For their annual Longnight celebration, she decided, she’d insist he pay out for the flowers, if for no other reason than to keep their home from being mistaken for a seedy tavern.

With regard to the pair of knaves, slow-playing might entice Daveed to commit to a bluff, and like the greedy merchant who braves the stormy spring sea, he’d sink himself. Antes were already in the pot and no one had raised, so when it came her turn to bet or check, she rapped the raspberry-red felt and parted with a coy smile. “I won’t argue with seeing a cheap flop.”

Dark eye powder and a dusting of crushed mica enhanced her insidious expression. Cosmetics, being the art of the elite chemist, gifted youth to the old and beauty to the plain, but Raisa used her collection of rare and special tints to create an ambiguous mask upon her rather unremarkable face. What better place to demonstrate her aptitude for fakery? It was a high-stakes game with no limit, and though Raisa worked hard to earn her reputation as a shrewd player, she’d brought her coins and jewelry to take a stab at the desperate deals men make at the end of the night. Strange had something she wanted and judging by the sweat sheen on his brow, he was close to his limit. Primed to hear a reasonable offer. All she needed was an opportunity.

As far as intentions go, every single item in here was put in to do a specific job. I've read this opening few paragraphs like 50 times literally, and I like it just as it is, but no one's going to agree this is an engaging opening. One person will say to cut the sentence with the word "witch" because it's erroneous. Another would say I should make it clearer she's able to see auras and that's unusual, because a reader will want to know that up front. I'm sure some folks will want more description of the room (this is all I give, believe it or not, until much later in the chapter). I just find it so hard to cover all bases, that it makes me feel crazy. I feel like I simply can't find the best place to start a story...ANY story. Or the right words to open with. Or the right little jabs to take at the reader to get him to react. But the thing is, if I've done my best, hit all the points I wanted to make, and did everything I could to make sure that every sentence is tight and relevant, and everything said has a bearing on the story and character...what more can I do? Is it my voice? Is it just that I made the wrong choice of where to open? What would a professional editor say? that I've begun too early or late? Or that I've developed a habit for bland language by over-editing? Is that fixable? OMG it just feels so daunting. I've been trying so hard for the past three years to up my game until I'm publish-worthy, and I just feel like I've gotten nowhere, followed the rainbow around the world, and started back where I was, but now tired and wet to boot!

I'd gladly start a new project, but I just need to know what I'm supposed to do differently this time. What's the goal, to write a simpler story? To just limit the amount of times I read the material? To outline really well? I will happily do anything to break this cycle, but I need to clearly understand the goals in order to fight my natural inclination that i've developed over several years of conditioning myself to edit without mercy.

 

[Chessie]

If you're facing a lack of passion for your writing, then why not try pantsing something? Sometimes I believe that the reason we get so caught up in outlining to the details is because we're afraid of going into the story blind to some degree. We're not sure how to trust our creative voice or are even sure what it is. We get so caught up in what we should be writing or how we should be saying it because someone told us to do it that way. We begin to lose faith in ourselves and in our work. I hit a wall of boredom and disappointment over my writing when I outlined--so I stopped. It works for some, and not for others. If you've tried it one way, why not try it another? Struggling is part of the process, my friend. There's no way out of it. You're experiencing growing pains that will ultimately lead you to a place of growth in your craft.

Another quick thing since you mentioned not being able to write...have you tried word sprints? Set the timer for 5 minutes and try to write as fast as you can. Don't worry about editing or which words sound better, etc. Sprints are really useful in helping writers shut down critical voice when writing and improves word count. If you maybe do 2 sprints a day for a week and no other writing, it'll add up. Something is beter than nothing.

And as far as your goals are for a new story, how about just writing from start to finish? Enjoy what you're writing? Don't let anyone else look at it. Connect with your love for the craft because if that's missing then why do this anyway?

 

[ThinkerX]

Caged, you might want to see how other peoples openings fared on this site:

Flogging the Quill

This is his recommended first page checklist - though there are exceptions:

A First-page Checklist

•It begins engaging the reader with the character
•Something is happening. On a first page, this does NOT include a character musing about whatever.
•The character desires something.
•The character does something.
•There’s enough of a setting to orient the reader as to where things are happening.
•It happens in the NOW of the story.
•Backstory? What backstory? We’re in the NOW of the story.
•Set-up? What set-up? We’re in the NOW of the story.
•What happens raises a story question.

Caveat: a strong first-person voice with the right content can raise powerful story questions and create page turns without doing all of the above. A recent submission worked wonderfully well and didn't deal with five of the things in the checklist.

I've had two of my openings judged on that site. The first fared fairly well, the second flopped badly enough to warrant a rewrite.

Anymore, this is how I approach not just the books opening, but most individual chapters.

The MC needs to have a goal - which can change.
The MC needs to be faced with a obstacle.
A confrontation, evasion, or discovery is needed.
A mini-resolution is needed.
Said resolution should also hint at a future or new problem.

 

[Velka]

One person will say to cut ....

Another would say I should ....

I'm sure some folks will want ....

What would a professional editor say?

I'd gladly start a new project, but I just need to know what I'm supposed to do differently this time... but I need to clearly understand the goals in order to fight my natural inclination that i've developed over several years of conditioning myself to edit without mercy.

What do you need to do differently?

Get all these damn voices out of your head. Write until you can read your work and edit it with your own thoughts, opinions, and ideas instead of seeing it through the empty eye sockets of all these imagined ghosts of crits past, present, and future. No wonder you feel like you're spinning in circles and can't find your voice, your mind is cluttered with all of these negative ones.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Yeah, Velka, I hear you. I know there are a bunch of fear voices in my head, and it isn't that I don't see it, but the problem is, I'm striving to be "professional" and so my aim is to write "like professionals" not like myself. So yeah, on the one hand, I can write like myself all day long. I can churn out a dozen novels and a hundred shorts (because I have, though it took twelve years), but I can't understand what I'm missing. Why does my work not look and feel like a published authors'? Is it as good? What makes it good enough? At what point do you know you're doing fine? If betas still have major gripes about a story, how can I overcome differing opinions from betas when they all sound valid to me? How can I tell what to change and what to keep?

So that's the crux of my problem. I SO hear you, and I know what I'm doing to myself, but on the other hand, I've just "written like me" for a decade, and I've moved past that point of only being bent on self-gratification in a way, and want to now pursue those habits that will push me more into a professional arena, but the HOW TO of it escapes me, tough I've spent a considerable amount of energy on the quest for perfection. Basically, I've done two major overhauls to a book, one time cutting, and the next pass strengthening and stylizing, and after two years of editing that work, it's just as awful today as when I started. I'm just not sure what's going wrong here. And I WISH so much I could figure it out, because I can't waste any more time on this. I need to fish or cut bait.

Thanks for reminding me the internal voices are fears voiced by invisible critics. Yeah, I can turn that off for a time and just write, but then I always eventually come back to the point of knowing something isn't perfect, and the voices chime in again!

 

[Caged Maiden]

OMG YES!!! I DO need to just write something for me. But the thing is, I have--and I have several stories I'd put into that category. False Lights, The Diablarist, A Winter to Remember, A Meal in the Maelstrom, those are all stories I wouldn't change even if everyone hated them. Because I love them, and they are what they are--my interpretations of prompts and fitted within the requirements of a challenge. The problem is, if standing back and looking at them, are any good enough to be published? Or even represent me or my style on Amazon or in an anthology?

At first, Chesterama, I felt like I HAVE done word sprints, Nano several times a year, brainstorm sessions for new stories, all kinds of exploratory writing (or maybe talking to myself...if that doesn't sound too crazy to admit), and I'm a born panther, which was why I gave so much effort to learning how to outline. I panted a dozen novels and I liked them, but they got too tricky for me, getting off track and over-complicated in some ways.

So anyways (because now I'm not sure whose question I'm answering anymore because I'm so scatterbrained by thinking about this mess), my current project was to rewrite a story I wrote in 2008. It's a full rewrite, with me just keeping the plot and characters and a few scenes, and the majority being created new. I felt this was a good project because if anything, I want to simplify the plot, not complicate it, and it'll give me a book I've had distance from, but am already passionate about. Sometimes it's harder for me to come up with a completely new idea if I'm working on technique, because I tend to be like a force of chaos. One day I'm jotting down character names and deciding what the setting is based on, and the next, I'm three chapters into a story I never planned. It just goes fast and sometimes horribly wrong, and so writing something new isn't a great way for me to flex my planning and professional muscles. That's the main reason I selected an old novel in need of a rewrite. I loved what I had, but he major problem was that the movie playing in my head as I read the book was thoroughly enjoyable, but the movie playing in the reader's head while he read the book was disjointed and jumpy, and felt more like a Public Service Announcement-style documentary from like the 50s. It grated in a way I couldn't feel because it was my story and I knew what I meant. To the reader, it came off as melodramatic, and then confusing, and then meandering, and wash and repeat. So it needs a rewrite, and I know now my skills are so much stronger. But...

that brings me to the current situation, where I was writing, going along well enough, and actually really liking what I was doing...and then it happened! I came to a part where I fell a little off track. Do I put this in and increase tension? I dunno, does it increase tension? Maybe it just stalls? Maybe it's just erroneous and will feel that way. It barely affects the MC, except to show her reaction to the thing and how that affects her person in a larger way. Hm...let me think about this for a couple days. And then I spent three days playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, and not writing anything.

Any advice? My fear is that I feel I should cut it, but then if I send it to a beta and they read the chapter with the section in, they'll say to cut it, but if they read the chapter with the section already cut, they'll say there's not enough tension. It's a perpetual catch-22 and I'm just so confused. I want to know the answers, but I can't clearly discern which is better. So it isn't that I'm not writing for me, because I'm fine with the story either way. But is that then the problem? Must we work to write until there's a clear indicator a story has topped out on its potential? How in the world can we figure out that point? HA!

 

[Chessie]

You need to stop cutting. Just stop it. Only edit typos and continuity errors in the first pass of your work. Allow the creative voice inside of you write those books. When they're done, then let readers see them.

There's always going to be that place in a story where we all get stuck, outline or no outline. It's part of the creative process. I don't know any writers that don't have bad days. Hell, I'm running on a wickedly close deadline right now and writing is the last thing I want to do! But that's part of creating: the good days, the shitty days, the days when words flow and the days when all of it sounds like a 3rd grader wrote that prose. The life of a writer is far from effing glamorous. But it's so, so worth it to create. Just keep at it. Write daily. I mean it. Even if you're writing 300 words a day you're still in the process.

 

[Caged Maiden]

@ ThinkerX Okay...so here's the deal with the checklist. I FEEL like I hit those. So now that I feel I've done that, is it "good"? HA! This is the question that is killing me.

-Begins with character: Raisa sees auras at the card table and it's weird, but helps her cheat.
-Something is happening: a card game, so something, but not "action"
-The character desires something: I don't name it yet, but I show she has a desire--to make a deal with Strange
-The character does something: The only thing she does is decide how to play her cards. She's trying to win, after all.
-There’s enough of a setting to orient the reader as to where things are happening: This is my thing to do sparingly.
-It happens in the NOW of the story: yep, this is the inciting incident of the whole book, a card game that goes wrong.
-Backstory? What backstory? We’re in the NOW of the story: I threw in a couple little hints about backstory in the setting details, just to help the reader orient better in Raisa's head. I want a reader to know that they're in the home she shares with a crime boss, and he's her benefactor, and that she's getting tired of the arrangement and being a secondary consideration.
-Set-up? What set-up? We’re in the NOW of the story: Don't think I have any set-up,but some follows in a little bit, when she postures with Strange to actually seal their deal.
-What happens raises a story question: I never know if I accomplish this one, but I hope the reader (after this first page) will wonder what Raisa wants from Strange, wonder how she's going to fare in the card game, and lastly, consider whether seeing auras is normal or not.


Okay, so again, it's not like I'm just throwing words out there and not caring whether they're any good. I try to hit all the major points. I can pass the checklist, but does that mean it's any good? Because I feel like what continually happens is that I've checked off the list, but then everyone still hates whatever I've got. I do so much better with shorts than I do with novels. I'm not sure why that is, but it's sort of jarring how well people receive some of my shorts, and then sigh when it comes to giving feedback on a novel. Like...how can I write great short stories but then botch every novel so gloriously? HA!

Yeah, I appreciate all these writer aids, and am really a fan of Immerse or Die, but I just find that the "guidelines" are so easy to hit, when in reality execution is everything. And I have some major concerns that my execution is irreparably damaged by my self-loathing and anxiety. I used to just write a ton, but lately, I get sort of panicky even thinking about writing. It's like a shock collar for me now. I don't like the feel of having it on because I know it'll make me feel bad at some point in the near future.

I don't want anyone to feel like I'm discounting any suggestion, because I'm absolutely not, I'm just struggling to figure out what I haven't tried, looking in vain for any sort of solution to a persistent problem that probably isn't typical? Who knows. Anyways. Thank you guys all for your support. I know I've written these kinds of posts before, and all I can say is that it means a lot to me that you're on this journey with me. Some of you I know personally, and some of you I don't, but it really helps me to hear your coping strategies. I feel so alone in this thing sometimes, like I'm just failing all alone and no one cares, but I bet we've all felt that way now and again. Thanks, scribes!

 

[Caged Maiden]

Yeah, I wrote daily for five years, and a few times a week for the ten before that. I have writing down. But the thing is, I don't feel like what I'm writing is as good as it needs to be. I haven't gotten many great responses form folks, and those all came from short stories. So, I can write, I can churn out words and finish first drafts. I can even do a thorough editing pass and finish second drafts. But the problem with those are that I always seem to miss big plot things, so when I send those out to critters, I get questions back that advise me to change huge sections, either because the material wasn't interesting enough, or because I overlooked some item of consistency/ development, plausibility, and with it left alone, the whole story loses credibility.

And that's where I've been stuck for a number of years. I'm honestly tired of writing every day to not make progress, so that's why I've taken some extended breaks from writing. Not because i don't like it, but because the work I'm doing is not seeming to actually improve anything. How can you tell your work is good?

 

[ThinkerX]

For what little it might be worth, my take on your piece:

The faint green glow surrounding Daveed, the man across the table from Raisa, was an anomaly she couldn’t explain, a peculiarity often attributed to eccentric wise women—just a nice way of saying witch. While Raisa didn’t consider the brief and unannounced appearances of the oddity a skill, any more than drunkenness was a skill learned by imbibing, it had its merits. Past experience taught her that a person’s aura flickered like a candle near a window when they were deceitful, and Daveed’s had flickered twice in the last breath he sucked between sneering lips. He checked but didn’t raise. Not yet, but he would.

Raisa picked up her cards as play passed from quiet, smug Daveed to his polar opposite, the unreserved socialite of Brazelton’s criminal underbelly, Andrew Strange.

Through a curtain of cigar smoke, an ironwork chandelier’s light filtered down, imbuing the ballroom with a warm ambience that made the gambling tables below seem intimate despite the constant din of party attendees. From her vantage point on the gallery, Raisa perched above a sea of stale bodies, debating how she wanted to play the pair of knaves under her left palm.

Despite strong hole cards and being up coins overall, she battled a lingering dour mood. Lion overruled her when she wanted to order centerpieces to dress the hall in fragrant autumn blooms, claiming the hired security for the evening cost him too much to spend any more on frills. But he’d spent twice as much for booze as they’d settled on, and a dozen boxes of infused cigars managed to make their way into the party and onto the bill. For their annual Longnight celebration, she decided, she’d insist he pay out for the flowers, if for no other reason than to keep their home from being mistaken for a seedy tavern.

With regard to the pair of knaves, slow-playing might entice Daveed to commit to a bluff, and like the greedy merchant who braves the stormy spring sea, he’d sink himself. Antes were already in the pot and no one had raised, so when it came her turn to bet or check, she rapped the raspberry-red felt and parted with a coy smile. “I won’t argue with seeing a cheap flop.”

Dark eye powder and a dusting of crushed mica enhanced her insidious expression. Cosmetics, being the art of the elite chemist, gifted youth to the old and beauty to the plain, but Raisa used her collection of rare and special tints to create an ambiguous mask upon her rather unremarkable face. What better place to demonstrate her aptitude for fakery? It was a high-stakes game with no limit, and though Raisa worked hard to earn her reputation as a shrewd player, she’d brought her coins and jewelry to take a stab at the desperate deals men make at the end of the night. Strange had something she wanted and judging by the sweat sheen on his brow, he was close to his limit. Primed to hear a reasonable offer. All she needed was an opportunity.

First, you started in the wrong place. You said this card game sets the whole tale in motion. So THAT is your opening line:

'Raisa flicked a card onto the table.'

Next, something about this 'Daveed' captures her attention. You mentioned a green aura. How does that make Raisa feel? Does she suspect cheating? Is she concerned about loosing her stake? Does she start sweating beneath the makeup? You could probably address all this in three or four sentences instead of paragraphs. Point to drive home: Something weird has Raisa concerned.

Then the next hand. This is where you include a bit of the ambience, and very short descriptions of Daveed and the other players. Again, just a few sentences, not paragraphs.

You could probably trim this piece by close to half and make it better in the process.

 

[skip.knox]

Caged Maiden, my heart goes out to you. If it's any consolation, you surely do know how to write, because you made me feel your pain in a serious way.

I don't have any recommendations. I have a notion, though. Find an editor. Just one. Just because you shouldn't listen to all those other voices (and I agree that you ought not), doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to *anyone*. Or only to yourself, which you've already said you have tried. It will be expensive. Doubly so because the odds of choosing the right editor the first time are low (I've hired two and neither were worth the electrons they were imprinted on). But my notion is that if you can find a truly professional editor, then that one voice can guide you to improvement. Not to every improvement, mind you, but at least enough to where you feel you have your feet under you again. Just one external, objective voice.

Beyond that I'm not going to go. I wish I could say something that would somehow magically (!) make you feel better, but I can't. Just know that there are other writers out here who are in the same fix, or were in it, or will be in it. We give you a group hug.

Oh, and outlining? It's worse than having that kid brother who won't leave you alone but who only embarrasses you. And I have the *exact* same feeling of objective emptiness. Great outlines; never use them; and when I try, I only go sideways anyway. But neither can I abandon them. What I'm working on now is this: instead of the outline being about *what* happens, I am trying to note *why* it happens. More specifically, the "what" part is the first outline draft. Because I need to get the sequence down. After than, though, I'm working on writing what my characters want (including the antagonists), why they want it, how they feel if they don't get it, and so on. It's probably going to be as useless as the rest, but it gives me the illusion of progress.

*more awkward hugs*

 

[Caged Maiden]

Thanks, ThinkerX, I really appreciate that you want to help. Like I said, this is sort of what's causing my problem. You know, I actually didn't open the story here at all, and am only adding this chapter to the rewrite because the book has two inciting incidents, one being the original one, where the MC gets accused of being able to open a magical door, and is kidnapped. And the other one was before the book opened, when she met a bard who beat her in a card game, and later, he's the one who rescues her from her kidnapper.

I just want to add that while I hear you, and I'm not trying to argue anything, I feel like my opening as it stands highlights all the right things (for me and my intentions). The card game is less important than the ability to see auras. Some of this confusion between writer goals and execution questions comes from my ability to explain a scene's goals, I understand, and I have found it's impossible to be clear. Anyways, so she does end up sweating, but first she's displeased with the house and her benefactor (to me, that's important. And anyways, even if I showed her really nervous right in the first paragraph, arguably, no reader would care because they don't know her or connect with her. Just because I showed her sweating and anxious in the first paragraph doesn't mean anyone would care more about that than why she's upset with her benefactor for vetoing her on the flowers...which I actually like). So right after this hand, where she chooses not to call Daveed's bluff, but instead folds and cuts a deal with a friend, negotiating for something she really wants, something that might even set her free from her crime boss. So that's how I'm trying to enter a little danger into this scene. The actual inciting incident of the scene is at the end, where the bard beats her badly and she leaves the table, broke and shamed, and feeling threatened. Now, again, I know my explanations are horrible and i'm about the worst summarizer in the world, but the thing I always wonder is...can I get a proper opinion from people who don't read beyond the opening? Because I'm feeling very much like I get crits on openings over and over, and everyone hates every rendition I can provide (okay, that's an exaggeration, I'd call it more like 70% don't like and 30% do like, but in those 40%, some are readers and not writers). I hope this illustrates my confusion. Honestly, as embarrassing as it is to put myself out there to you all, and expose what an idiot I feel like, I hope this can help someone else, too.

So anyways, the thing is, let's say I rewrote it following your suggestions...what happens when I get three more opinions that say That's the wrong way to open? You have to understand...I've heard over and over that "this doesn't work", or "maybe start later", or a hundred other versions of those. The simple problem is that whatever I do, it isn't "right". No one loves it. See, I loved the opening of The Lies of Locke Lamora, but it really broke some of the sage writing advice. It was omniscient, info-dumpy, and after one short scene, did a flashback. None of that sounds like a good idea. But to me, it hooked me from the beginning. So...with my own story, how can I possibly find the right way to open it, if no one ever likes any of the options? I'm all for hearing constructive criticism, but I'm having one of two problems: either I'm such a weak writer I just can't figure out how to actually execute something well, or I'm missing the larger picture of learning where and when to open.

What I feel like is this:

One critter read this manuscript back in 2011. He suggested I cut the whole first chapter because it's sort of backstory, but it deals with an immediate situation and starts the quest rolling. However, it wasn't told from the MC's POV. So I agreed, it should be cut, but I never found a great solution to solve my bigger problem--the MC will never know any of the things in that chapter, and therefore I worried the story was disconnected. I edited the opening chapter and pushed that though to a few more critters, who all read the opening few chapters and indicated the first chapter was still problematic, because it wasn't the MC's POV. Okay, I knew I had a problem.

Then, I strengthened the first 6 chapters, honing in on the story I wanted to tell, though I left the first chapter pretty much intact. The editing went well, in that I improved on some action and created some more depth, but I also increased words and slowed pacing, so maybe not beneficial in the long run?

Next, I added a couple split scenes, things happening in other parts of the world. Rather than "tell" about the events (as the first chapter had), I "showed" the events happening and then trimmed the conversation that incites the journey. I liked it. Other people had mixed opinions. It went through about 4 more betas.

Last summer, I threw out the old structure of the first chapter, (and basically just threw my hands in the air and threw a hail mary) and mimicked The Lies of Locke Lamora's opening, where the two men meet, they talk, and then interspersed within that one conversation, each of the split scenes takes place. So the whole first chapter was a conversation in person in the present, but interspersed between parts of the conversation, pertinent past split scenes were shown. I gave it to one person and he really thought it was a huge improvement. SO at least I felt I was making progress, because i can't cut the info out entirely, but I can change how I present it.

I recently sent it to another critter, who felt that opening with the conversation (of which my MC isn't a part) detracted from the story, and I agreed. So I followed the advice to rewind in time and show the card game that started the animosity that in the future will lead to a tense relationship between the woman who is kidnapped and the man who she hates, but gets to know after he rescues her.


So, that's where I am. I've rewritten, changed my goals, and generally listened to all the advice folks have given me, and i have to say, I just want to get it "right" but there seems to be no actual finish line here. When I posted the section above, I wanted to show what I mean when I say to me it works great, it's exactly how I like to read stuff, but I can't seem to get anyone else to jump on board and see why I made the choices I did. It's weird how I can spend so much time and thought on something that I stand back and try to look objectively at, and how far off base I feel I'm hitting.

I just don't know which voice to listen to, and the hardest thing to combat, is this feeling that I'm making the right choices, but when other writers read, they're looking for something else. Maybe some feel they'd do it different. Maybe some feel my execution is questionable so they don't trust me to drive the car. Maybe some just hate the style of my writing (detail vs. pacing). I mean, I'm definitely not trying to make excuses, but for all the thought I've given this, I still don't know what's causing the disconnect. I feel like some critters in the past have really just wanted some sort of list to occur in the beginning of the novel--perhaps thinly disguised as dialogue or something--that would basically tell them all the pertinent information up front, so they could instantly decide whether they liked the story and had positive comments, or didn't like the story and would leave negative comments. It felt rushed and insincere at times. (all years ago) That isn't what a reader wants, sometimes. They might want a story that starts in exposition, or be open to POV changes early on to tell a more complete story. I'm not advocating making bad choices, I'm just saying it can be hard to hear writerly opinions sometimes because they can be more a reflection of what the other writer wants, not a measure of whether a reader feels drawn to your character and situation, and is willing to work out the subtle symbolism or whatever...

I'm certainly very interested in continuing to talk about novel opening strategies, because I'm just failing at every turn lately, and it's hard to even want to write right now. But the thing is, I'm not going to get through this if I just keep doing what I've been doing. I'm exhausted from all the caring I've done, and I'm starting to only feel good when I don't think about writing.

It's hard to determine which voice to listen to, because I've long said I need a mentor something fierce in this business. I think I'm looking for a reader who will trust me to drive the car, and chime in when they like or dislike something, not immediately start highlighting everything that doesn't impress on first glance (give a story a chance, rather than expecting it to feel familiar). I mean...that's the standard I was trying to live up to, and at this point, I think I just have to admit to myself i'm not that guy. I'm not that natural talent. I'll never be him. And I'm okay with that. Because I'm this guy. And I have some good stuff to share too, but I need to figure out how to communicate it effectively. How do some stories make it so effortless-looking, and I'm driving myself into an early grave over it?

So anyways, thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. I know a lot of folks here are more private than I am, but I've just seriously been on this ride too long to give up now. So I suppose I show my crazy out in public a little, hoping a conversation will not only help me get over the hurdle, but might also help someone else.

You're the best!