cliches and stereotypes

[cupiscent]

Depends on the point of the mentor. The mentor doesn't have to be able to coach you in everything about life necessarily. So if our Hero has been learning how to farm, but Miss Ninja over here has been trained from infancy to kill people with her bare hands, even if they are the same age - or she's younger - she can be his mentor in the art of killing people.

My next point would be: if the mentor character isn't around long enough, or important enough to warrant deep character development... why is that character there are all? Make it a book. Or better: make it important.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

Look at tvtropes- they're great about this. Its really all about how you pull it off.

 

[Tom]

Personally, I would find a young mentor suspicious. Unless there was some REALLY good reason for the young person to be wiser than their years (for instance, if they possessed the memories of all their ancestors, like the Dune twins) then a young mentor just wouldn't be believable to me. It's a simple fact of life that most people accumulate knowledge and wisdom only through time and experience. Thus most young people aren't fit to be mentors.

I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.

 

[Mythopoet]

My next point would be: if the mentor character isn't around long enough, or important enough to warrant deep character development... why is that character there are all? Make it a book. Or better: make it important.

Sometimes a mentor is only as important as what they pass on to the mentee. Many kinds of characters are only as important as the interaction they have with the main character/s. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's no point spending a lot of time developing a character like that. It just depends on what kind of story you're telling.

 

[Mythopoet]

I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.

So he has 26 years of experience. That's the important part. And of course "30" is pretty old by the standards of many, many fantasy stories. (Says the 32 year old who still loves watching anime about 15 year olds kicking butt.)

 

[DeathtoTrite]

I have some reason to doubt that. My fencing coach is in his early thirties, but he has a vast knowledge of fencing techniques and experience in all three sport fencing disciplines. Of course, he started fencing at the age of four, so that point may be moot.

But he doesn't really fit the mentor stereotype- a wise teacher who imparts wisdom to the MC. Technical skill and knowledge aren't really the main point of the wise old mentor archetype.

 

[Svrtnsse]

(I think) I'm with Mythopoet.

Being a mentor means having knowledge to pass on to the mentored. Knowledge is acquired over time and the older the mentor is the longer they will have had to acquire the required knowledge.
Like in the case of the fencing coach, the mentor may not necessarily have to be older than the student, but they still have significantly more years of experience in their chosen field. So even in that case the mentor is "older" in their field of expertise.

 

[Tom]

Haha...thirty is by no means "old".

That brings me to another cliche I don't like--besides the ubiquitous Old Mentor, anyone "good" in fantasy has to be young and beautiful. It's the "bad" people who are old and ugly. Way to judge on appearances. And speaking of that, there's the blond=good, dark-haired=bad cliche. Too many people are biased in the favor of my own hair color! There need to be more evil blonds! (Hey, I'll be the first to join their ranks.)

 

[Mythopoet]

That brings me to another cliche I don't like--besides the ubiquitous Old Mentor, anyone "good" in fantasy has to be young and beautiful. It's the "bad" people who are old and ugly. Way to judge on appearances. And speaking of that, there's the blond=good, dark-haired=bad cliche. Too many people are biased in the favor of my own hair color! There need to be more evil blonds! (Hey, I'll be the first to join their ranks.)

How odd. Is this really a stereotype of fantasy literature? Most fantasy books I have read and enjoyed left most of the characters' physical traits up to the minds of the reader, usually only giving a few key details. It seems to me like this would be more of a problem with visual media, if anything.

 

[Mythopoet]

Here's the thing:

cliches and stereotypes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder (or mind of the reader). What one person considers "cliche" will be exactly what another person likes best. For this reason, I always like to say there is no such thing as a true "cliche" or "stereotype" in literature. What is tired and worn out for one reader will be new and fresh for another reader. What one reader hates will be what another reader loves. And besides, there are always new readers being born and growing up and encountering all the things that others find "cliche" for the very first time.

You simply can't avoid all the things that every reader finds to be cliche. There would be nothing left to write. Everything you can possibly write is going to be hated by some readers. Your job as a writer is not to worry about that. You just focus on writing stories and connecting to the group of readers who will like them.

 

[Svrtnsse]

How odd. Is this really a stereotype of fantasy literature? Most fantasy books I have read and enjoyed left most of the characters' physical traits up to the minds of the reader, usually only giving a few key details. It seems to me like this would be more of a problem with visual media, if anything.

I think there's such a thing as perceived stereotypes. Things that we as "part of the scene" have come to take for granted and which we consider commonplace and stereotypical even though it perhaps actually isn't.

It's not uncommon that there's talk of Tolkien rip-offs and how there's so many works that are just derivatives of his creation, but when it comes down to it, there aren't as many as it first seemed (I'm sure there are many, just not as many). I think there was a thread here on that very topic not long ago, and the works that were mentioned there weren't all that many.

 

[Mythopoet]

I definitely agree with that, Svrt. I think most of these cliches and stereotypes and derivative works are in readers' minds alone. Most of the time calling something cliche really only means that you don't personally like it.

 

[Tom]

I've been pondering this subject lately, and I think a lot of the cliches and stereotypes we readers complain about are actually falling out of favor. In the last few years, I think we've seen the next generation of fantasy writers emerge and fresh ideas come into play. Case in point: when I was in middle school, almost all fantasy fiction written for that age group seemed to be Tolkien wannabe tripe. Now, however, I look at the brand-new middle-grade and YA fantasy books coming out and say, "Aw man, I want me some of that originality!"

 

[Guy]

Here's the thing:

cliches and stereotypes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder (or mind of the reader). What one person considers "cliche" will be exactly what another person likes best. For this reason, I always like to say there is no such thing as a true "cliche" or "stereotype" in literature. What is tired and worn out for one reader will be new and fresh for another reader. What one reader hates will be what another reader loves. And besides, there are always new readers being born and growing up and encountering all the things that others find "cliche" for the very first time.

You simply can't avoid all the things that every reader finds to be cliche. There would be nothing left to write. Everything you can possibly write is going to be hated by some readers. Your job as a writer is not to worry about that. You just focus on writing stories and connecting to the group of readers who will like them.

Reminds me of the time I saw a critic complaining the movie Snow White was using tired and worn cliches. My first thought was that, yeah, to a middle aged guy the story was cliched and predictable, but to the target audience of small children it was fresh and new and exciting.

 

[Helen]

Personally, I would find a young mentor suspicious.

It's not uncommon.

e.g. Tom's younger sister in (500) Days of Summer

 

[Mythopoet]

It's not uncommon.

e.g. Tom's younger sister in (500) Days of Summer

I've never seen that. But being over 30 and knowing that even though I have always been quite a smart person, I am much, much wiser now than when I was young, young mentors scream "bullshit" to me. The minute some teen or young adult tries acting like they have the wisdom of life experience I just scoff and can't take it seriously. That's just my opinion though.

 

[glutton]

What about a sheltered 20 (or 25, or 30) year old being mentored and taught how to handle real hardship by a 15 (or 20, or 25) year old who's been a soldier since the day they could pick up a gun/spear?

Also I mean sheltered relatively, older mentee could be a soldier but gets transported into a much more savage dimension full of monsters and younger mentor is someone has survived there on their own for years...

 

[Helen]

I've never seen that. But being over 30 and knowing that even though I have always been quite a smart person, I am much, much wiser now than when I was young, young mentors scream "bullshit" to me. The minute some teen or young adult tries acting like they have the wisdom of life experience I just scoff and can't take it seriously. That's just my opinion though.

Depends on the exact function.

If you want to learn the Force, then sure it helps to have a Jedi master who's been doing it for 900 years.

But if you want to teach a moral lesson, then that's age-independent. In The Imitation Game, Keira Knightley's character is a young lady who is on the right moral side.

I'm saying that the mask isn't as important as the function.

 

[Rufanacious]

But if you want to teach a moral lesson, then that's age-independent. In The Imitation Game, Keira Knightley's character is a young lady who is on the right moral side.

I'm saying that the mask isn't as important as the function.

But surely we're straying from the definition of 'mentor', then. I mean, a young child in a story could be the one who teaches the hero an important moral lesson, or even turns their whole outlook around and so on... but I wouldn't classify that role as a 'mentor' at all.

@glutton - Although I can totally imagine a disoriented, naive 20-something character encountering a hardened, savvy, warrior type teen - when thrown into the teen's monster-filled world - who then teaches them (probably, bluntly and with much violence and swearing) how to handle the danger and stay alive. (!!!) (Sounds kinda awesome!)

 

[glutton]

@glutton - Although I can totally imagine a disoriented, naive 20-something character encountering a hardened, savvy, warrior type teen - when thrown into the teen's monster-filled world - who then teaches them (probably, bluntly and with much violence and swearing) how to handle the danger and stay alive. (!!!) (Sounds kinda awesome!)

It's a pretty common trope in my stories for the male lead to be a trained warrior or decent MMA fighter (urban fantasy) and meet a younger or same age female lead who's one of the baddest fighters on the planet - although they don't always serve as mentors, they usually at least teach the guy to fight better. XD