Do you gravitate toward particular body types?

[Finchbearer]

I get offended when a book / book series / TV series becomes really popular but portrays women in a derogatory or stereotypical way. Why specifically do I get offended at that? Because I feel misrepresented, and because it perpetuates harmful stereotypes. I think this is much of why others might become offended but I can’t speak for others.

There are ads for example from the 1950’s that tell women directly and explicitly that they are worthless to society if they don’t pretty themselves up - we mostly agree that’s offensive. There are some things that are still offensive, and to disregard that completely puts you in the position of ignorance.

In fantasy writing there have been many instances where I hope that a male author won’t make me stop reading because of a poor representation of females in the plot, but I still find myself saying no, fuck this, there’s 1000 other better representations than this. And that’s what we as writers are up against in terms of catering for readers.

 

[Jackarandajam]

People hand wave it and say 'everyone can be attractive' yet get offended as shit when you try to describe a 'supermodel' type character. Doesn't matter how well you write the character (or the male character getting 'distracted' by them) or how they're used in the narrative. You say or do the slightest thing that might imply sexualization and they eat you alive, regardless of if you intended sexualization or not.

Some people get offended when males in books objectify females in books pretty much across the board, unless the male in the book is painted as an extreme villain.
Those people want you to write propoganda and will never be happy, don't try to please them. Men sometimes objectify women. Just because it isn't best practice doesn't mean your characters can't be capable of it.

The actual bad writing comes into play when the author is sort of breaking the fourth wall to make sure the reader "gets it," constantly using sexual cliche adverbs to describe the character, sexualizing every scene the character is in, making half the things said to the character by other characters sexualized but she takes it really well because she's so used to it... etc.
This kind of writing comes off as an author-vicarious fantasy. Admittedly, some people like that kinda stuff. I think it's a huge trend in anime right now. I, personally, don't. I think it reads like a teenage fever dream.

A thin-waisted woman with huge assets is the hardest type of character to write because it's so hard to not come off as the second type of writing. I know I as a reader immediately get suspicious that if the writer was male they wrote the character with one hand, and if the writer was female It's an attempt to manipulate my reader-maleness with a cheap trick.

The best I can say is try to be careful to distance yourself as the writer from making your personal opinion about the character clear. Make any descriptions come from other characters, or herself.

A species of rabbit people in my story have good 'leg game' but that's more due to how the actual animal looks in real life, and how that would translate to a race of rabbit humans.

Haha, I mean It sounds like you're trying to write a sexy-centric fantasy without offending people who don't like sexy-centric fantasy. "How can I sexualize characters without offending people who don't like sexualized characters" is kind of a question that answers itself. You can't. Just write the damn thing.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I can agree that there are broad definitions for ‘body types’, such as ectomorph, mesomorph and endomorph, and variations in between those broad terms, but in terms of the question asked, when we are writing, or thinking about our characters, are we really ever describing two people who have all the same physical attributes in our own stories unless we are describing doppelgängers, twins, athletes or otherwise? I would say not.

I also like the idea of allowing the reader to build their own mental image of what the characters look like.

OP, you can create whatever descriptions you want for your characters, but I’d say the most effective way to do this is to have it be the opinion of another character. If you describe your character in the third omniscient it often comes across as self-gratification, but have another character describe someone is powerful, yes even if they are sexist, or rude, or full of lust or whatever - that’s what people are like in real life, have fun with that aspect of allowing the reader to get inside your characters heads.

I think that's where I fail at it most of the time, these types of character descriptions tend to come from the narrator (and not the POV character) despite that not being the intention.

A scene that had cropped up in my mind with one of these rabbit people.
She's challenging a main character to a dual, and being all flaunty/flirty of how strong she is. (Bragging about how many duals she's won etc)
Dude is puzzled why this particular female is distracting, since she's not his 'type' and a wild rabbit (the animal) walks by. He picks it up, and looks between her and the rabbit.

"Ohhhh, you're a rabbit lady, everything makes sense now"
Her reaction is "You just made that connection now?? Wait, what makes...oh, huh, yeah that, huh...that does make sense..."
Then there's an awkward silence between the two before the fight actually starts.

(The joke referencing that rabbits procreate a lot, so it makes sense that the rabbit species of humans is made to enforce that, even if they're warrior race they still need to grow and repopulate their species.)

Some people get offended when males in books objectify females in books pretty much across the board, unless the male in the book is painted as an extreme villain.
Those people want you to write propoganda and will never be happy, don't try to please them. Men sometimes objectify women. Just because it isn't best practice doesn't mean your characters can't be capable of it.

The actual bad writing comes into play when the author is sort of breaking the fourth wall to make sure the reader "gets it," constantly using sexual cliche adverbs to describe the character, sexualizing every scene the character is in, making half the things said to the character by other characters sexualized but she takes it really well because she's so used to it... etc.
This kind of writing comes off as an author-vicarious fantasy. Admittedly, some people like that kinda stuff. I think it's a huge trend in anime right now. I, personally, don't. I think it reads like a teenage fever dream.

A thin-waisted woman with huge assets is the hardest type of character to write because it's so hard to not come off as the second type of writing. I know I as a reader immediately get suspicious that if the writer was male they wrote the character with one hand, and if the writer was female It's an attempt to manipulate my reader-maleness with a cheap trick.

The best I can say is try to be careful to distance yourself as the writer from making your personal opinion about the character clear. Make any descriptions come from other characters, or herself.

Ye I absolutely need to get better at that, and not making my characters have same/similar opinions of other characters as me.

Haha, I mean It sounds like you're trying to write a sexy-centric fantasy without offending people who don't like sexy-centric fantasy. "How can I sexualize characters without offending people who don't like sexualized characters" is kind of a question that answers itself. You can't. Just write the damn thing.

I wouldn't call it 'sexy' (I mean it's not like the characters are walking around in the kind of stuff you'd see in Kill Bill) but it's 100% eccentric, that's a bit of the nature of writing something anime inspired. A lot of stuff in anime is quite off the rails, even if we remove all the 'sexy' stuff. Kinda falls flat on it's face when you try to appeal to people who don't understand anime.

 

[Renè Williams]

The actual bad writing comes into play when the author is sort of breaking the fourth wall to make sure the reader "gets it," constantly using sexual cliche adverbs to describe the character, sexualizing every scene the character is in, making half the things said to the character by other characters sexualized but she takes it really well because she's so used to it... etc.
This kind of writing comes off as an author-vicarious fantasy. Admittedly, some people like that kinda stuff. I think it's a huge trend in anime right now. I, personally, don't. I think it reads like a teenage fever dream.

Maybe you can help be a judge down the road of whether I'm doing a good job subverting this a bit, I've been trying to be really careful with my false femme fatale who plays the part to get what she wants but could kick most peoples asses, it's just easier to take advantage of men and healthier for her body as well (She doesn't sleep with them, ever, or she says so anyway, story hasn't really nailed down if she's being honest or not). I avoid describing anything around her waist or chest to leave it up to reader, have a POV character enamored by her, her acting like she knows men think shes pretty, and she has a thin three prong scar near her temple.

 

[Renè Williams]

A scene that had cropped up in my mind with one of these rabbit people.
She's challenging a main character to a dual, and being all flaunty/flirty of how strong she is. (Bragging about how many duals she's won etc)
Dude is puzzled why this particular female is distracting, since she's not his 'type' and a wild rabbit (the animal) walks by. He picks it up, and looks between her and the rabbit.

"Ohhhh, you're a rabbit lady, everything makes sense now"
Her reaction is "You just made that connection now?? Wait, what makes...oh, huh, yeah that, huh...that does make sense..."
Then there's an awkward silence between the two before the fight actually starts.

(The joke referencing that rabbits procreate a lot, so it makes sense that the rabbit species of humans is made to enforce that, even if they're warrior race they still need to grow and repopulate their species.)

I'm not sure I understand. If he's not her type, how could he be distracted by her? Rabbits don't procreate because rabbits think other rabbits are really pretty, they do it because their hearts beat so much faster then other mammals. Rats and stuff fall into this category too, rabbits are just cutesy to alot of people, so we don't say breeding like rats in a cage. lol. I think you can make it work with the whole, well, Human's like cute fluffy animals so they'd be enamored with a species with those qualities, maybe, but i wouldn't just say it's happening because rabbits breed so fast because they're pretty. Or am I overthinking this now?

 

[Jackarandajam]

Maybe you can help be a judge down the road of whether I'm doing a good job subverting this a bit, I've been trying to be really careful with my false femme fatale who plays the part to get what she wants but could kick most peoples asses, it's just easier to take advantage of men and healthier for her body as well (She doesn't sleep with them, ever, or she says so anyway, story hasn't really nailed down if she's being honest or not). I avoid describing anything around her waist or chest to leave it up to reader, have a POV character enamored by her, her acting like she knows men think shes pretty, and she has a thin three prong scar near her temple.

To give credit where credit is due, that's based on a piece of advice Finchbearer gave me a while back on something I posted for critique.

 

[Queshire]

I think that's where I fail at it most of the time, these types of character descriptions tend to come from the narrator (and not the POV character) despite that not being the intention.

A scene that had cropped up in my mind with one of these rabbit people.
She's challenging a main character to a dual, and being all flaunty/flirty of how strong she is. (Bragging about how many duals she's won etc)
Dude is puzzled why this particular female is distracting, since she's not his 'type' and a wild rabbit (the animal) walks by. He picks it up, and looks between her and the rabbit.

"Ohhhh, you're a rabbit lady, everything makes sense now"
Her reaction is "You just made that connection now?? Wait, what makes...oh, huh, yeah that, huh...that does make sense..."
Then there's an awkward silence between the two before the fight actually starts.

(The joke referencing that rabbits procreate a lot, so it makes sense that the rabbit species of humans is made to enforce that, even if they're warrior race they still need to grow and repopulate their species.)

Hmm.... I dunno. In my experience most anime inspired characters tend to be either inherently pervy (such as Sanji or Master Roshi) or basically immune to the sexy unless it's meant to fluster them. I couldn't really imagine an Ichigo, Naruto or Luffy style character doing that.

I wouldn't call it 'sexy' (I mean it's not like the characters are walking around in the kind of stuff you'd see in Kill Bill) but it's 100% eccentric, that's a bit of the nature of writing something anime inspired. A lot of stuff in anime is quite off the rails, even if we remove all the 'sexy' stuff. Kinda falls flat on it's face when you try to appeal to people who don't understand anime.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you're writing you won't have every time the character shows up on screen to show off how eccentric the characters look. You'll have to figure out how to do more with less.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I'm not sure I understand. If he's not her type, how could he be distracted by her? Rabbits don't procreate because rabbits think other rabbits are really pretty, they do it because their hearts beat so much faster then other mammals. Rats and stuff fall into this category too, rabbits are just cutesy to alot of people, so we don't say breeding like rats in a cage. lol. I think you can make it work with the whole, well, Human's like cute fluffy animals so they'd be enamored with a species with those qualities, maybe, but i wouldn't just say it's happening because rabbits breed so fast because they're pretty. Or am I overthinking this now?

I mean it's more a play on the phrase 'breeding like rabbits' (The PG version of F* like tigers) he's distracted by her in the sense that she's disrupting his train of thought (and being loud/boisterous in general) but not in the 'hormones activate' sense, if that makes any sense. Everyone knows why rabbits breed the way they do. But a common joke regarding people who want lots of kids is to call them rabbits.

Hmm.... I dunno. In my experience most anime inspired characters tend to be either inherently pervy (such as Sanji or Master Roshi) or basically immune to the sexy unless it's meant to fluster them. I couldn't really imagine an Ichigo, Naruto or Luffy style character doing that.

You haven't watched that many anime if your only examples are Sanjji and Master Roshi (There's plenty of way more lecherous anime chars) who hail from two of the most mainstream anime.

The guy I'm writing for this scene is 'dense' like Luffy but he's actually got some amount of IQ, he's the type to just let his gears turn until he figures shit out. (Unlike luffy who rushes in without a plan like 90% of the time)

One thing to keep in mind is that when you're writing you won't have every time the character shows up on screen to show off how eccentric the characters look. You'll have to figure out how to do more with less.

Hmm, so do more with less

 

[Queshire]

You haven't watched that many anime if your only examples are Sanjji and Master Roshi (There's plenty of way more lecherous anime chars) who hail from two of the most mainstream anime.

The guy I'm writing for this scene is 'dense' like Luffy but he's actually got some amount of IQ, he's the type to just let his gears turn until he figures shit out. (Unlike luffy who rushes in without a plan like 90% of the time)

Why would I need to list out more examples when two make my point?

 

[Jackarandajam]

I don't know anything about anime, but I'm confused about how this word "eccentric" is being used.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Is that genre slang for fetishization? Like, "eccentric" cute voluptuous catgirl teenagers with pocketfuls of throwing knives?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Why would I need to list out more examples when two make my point?

Depends on the point you're making, and if the character is a villain or protagonist.
And honestly Jiraya is worse than Roshi and Sanji put together. The key takeaway from these types of characters is that 90% of the time, their 'behavior' isn't encouraged or even tolerated a lot of the time, that's where the so called humor of it comes from. idiots getting their comeuppance can be quite funny. I understand not liking the character in question but some of these guys (Sanji in particular) can be awesome in spite of their flaws. Which are sometimes even made fun of in universe. Ash and Misty frequently roast brock in pokemon for example. Even though his advances are tame compared to Sanji and Roshi.

 

[Renè Williams]

I mean it's more a play on the phrase 'breeding like rabbits' (The PG version of F* like tigers) he's distracted by her in the sense that she's disrupting his train of thought (and being loud/boisterous in general) but not in the 'hormones activate' sense, if that makes any sense. Everyone knows why rabbits breed the way they do. But a common joke regarding people who want lots of kids is to call them rabbits.

Playing the critic; So then why does the guy realizing she's part rabbit make it make sense to him that he's distracted by her in the way woman he likes distract him, except he doesn't find her to be his type?

 

[Renè Williams]

I don't know anything about anime, but I'm confused about how this word "eccentric" is being used.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Is that genre slang for fetishization? Like, "eccentric" cute voluptuous catgirl teenagers with pocketfuls of throwing knives?

Correct. Eccentricity denotes wealth. Without wealth, it just makes someone sporadic and nonsensical.

On that topic, breeding like rabbits means having many kids, f&%@ like tigers means with passion and power, not often. These sayings mean different things entirely, one isn't PG of the other except by nature of not cursing because there isn't a curse for the word childbirth in the english language unless you include sh&%%ing out kids.

 

[Queshire]

Depends on the point you're making, and if the character is a villain or protagonist.
And honestly Jiraya is worse than Roshi and Sanji put together. The key takeaway from these types of characters is that 90% of the time, their 'behavior' isn't encouraged or even tolerated a lot of the time, that's where the so called humor of it comes from. idiots getting their comeuppance can be quite funny. I understand not liking the character in question but some of these guys (Sanji in particular) can be awesome in spite of their flaws. Which are sometimes even made fun of in universe. Ash and Misty frequently roast brock in pokemon for example. Even though his advances are tame compared to Sanji and Roshi.

Ah, sorry. I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't like them. It's just that with anime style characters that kind of reaction is generally more useful for letting the audience know something about the character doing the reacting rather than the letting the audience know something about the character they're reacting to. In this case perhaps it'd tell the audience that the main character has a thing for bunny girls that he only now realized.

 

[Queshire]

I don't know anything about anime, but I'm confused about how this word "eccentric" is being used.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Is that genre slang for fetishization? Like, "eccentric" cute voluptuous catgirl teenagers with pocketfuls of throwing knives?

If ya know then ya know. =0

Anime includes such character designs as...

Spoiler

EDIT: Posting the images didn't work. The other two examples include this square nosed guy;

Kaku

For the member of the Kyoshiro Family, see Kaku (Wano). Kaku is a masked agent of CP0. He was previously an assassin of CP9, operating undercover in order to obtain the Pluton blueprints from Iceburg. While undercover, he acted as one of the five foremen of Galley-La Company's Dock One...

onepiece.fandom.com

And this guy;

Kamina

Kamina is one of the main characters of the anime series Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. He along with Simon come from Jeeha Village and is the founder and original leader of Team Gurren (later Team Dai-Gurren). He motivates Simon with his speeches and determination to try to make a hero out of him...

hero.fandom.com

 

[pmmg]

I get offended when a book / book series / TV series becomes really popular but portrays women in a derogatory or stereotypical way. Why specifically do I get offended at that? Because I feel misrepresented, and because it perpetuates harmful stereotypes. I think this is much of why others might become offended but I can’t speak for others.

There are many things that offend me, and I could list them out, but so what that they do? No one is going to stop writing their project because of my sensibilities, and I would never expect them too. In spite of it all, it is better that we allow for the free expression than to try and bottle it up to some approved set of values. My role in it is just what I chose to participate with or not.

But to play this game of, I must curtail my writing on some topic, or in some portrayal, because it will be offensive to some (or even most), is to the give others the power over your expression. Once you've done that, you've a long trip through hell. There is nothing wrong with writing something that objectifies women (as is the topic that inspired this), or anything else. Many people do objectify women, many women seek to be objectified. If its true to the story, write it true. So what is the story you are trying to tell?

I get from the OP, that he is already trying to find ways to jump through hoops to avoid 'negative' descriptions. Why is that valuable? What would be wrong if the chubby character was displayed as fat? Heavy people have a lot of obstacles...from clothes that dont fit, to getting winded going up and down stairs, to fitting into airplane seats (Yours may not be that heavy). My sense is, in the effort to avoid what others might say, you are writing a story that is avoiding the true. Will that really resonate with your audience? Is that what you really want to capture?

Jumping through hoops is a torturous and exhausting task, and the audience will see through it anyway. Best just to write what you think is how it is.

I don't try to do it on purpose, but I seem to gravitate toward a particular body type, both for men and women.
When I try to write a 'chubby' character I avoid depicting them as 'overweight' or negative. (even when that's the point, I try to avoid negative descriptors)
When I try to write a 'fit' character I tend to go for 'athletic' but not like, muscle head. Unless it specifically fits that character. I don't think I've written anyone excessively 'buff' or 'masculine' for either gender.

I of course try to make their appearance fit the character, but I have a hard time honing in on anything other than like a 'basic' description. (you know, 'athletic' 'lanky' etc)

And now that I am reading his last line again.... I will add....

You can write so and so was chubby. Or you can show it by saying he got winded running up the stairs. If he's going to have the quality. Make it matter.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Correct. Eccentricity denotes wealth. Without wealth, it just makes someone sporadic and nonsensical.

Eccentricity in anime denotes wealth?
Cause thats not what the word means elsewhere.

It's a very common trope, sure, the "eccentric millionaire," but the term eccentric describes anyone who is largely well respected but displays some inexplicable or bizarre behaviors. Has nothing to do with money.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Ah, sorry. I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't like them. It's just that with anime style characters that kind of reaction is generally more useful for letting the audience know something about the character doing the reacting rather than the letting the audience know something about the character they're reacting to. In this case perhaps it'd tell the audience that the main character has a thing for bunny girls that he only now realized.

He's not the main character (but he is a 'main party member' if we think in RPG game terms) He's almost a thousand years old (you know, as elves do) but he's pretty much been busy with his blacksmithing business, so not much time for inter personal stuff. (the girl that goes with him would have to be just as dedicated if not more ) One of the few things this character reacts to in people is confidence and she's got it in spades. Though I get what you're saying.
Could be that he's had enough time to ponder these things where something finally clicked. Given he's a dragon (kinda complicated but it's not the traditional dragon nor like the skyrim lizard people) he figured he'd never realize those emotions.

 

[Renè Williams]

Eccentricity in anime denotes wealth?
Cause thats not what the word means elsewhere.

It's a very common trope, sure, the "eccentric millionaire," but the term eccentric describes anyone who is largely well respected but displays some inexplicable or bizarre behaviors. Has nothing to do with money.

I guess what I mean is the defining characteristic i see that separates 'crazy people' from 'eccentrics' is eccentrics can actually afford to do what they do, and so while not rich, are not your average person (as you said, they tend to be well known or well respected). I could have worded it better because your definition is surely better but to prop up my point; We don't call the corner jesus preacher wearing a rainbow toga an eccentric, but we do call the young rich son of a celebrity who shows up to a place in batman costumes one. Or even the say, Tony Stark vs someone like the Joker, we'd call the first eccentric, and the later crazy (although, i guess sometimes the Joker is also rich, so that foils my whole idea in some works)

Certainly, my own life circumstances make me see wealth differently then alot of people, so that is probably effecting my view of these types of characters (Not necessarily real people, as I don't care much for them outside of my wonderful job and fellow artists)

You certainly are correct i let the trope define my definition there, but also, there is a line we draw along the meridian of 'can they afford to act this crazy and not go bankrupt?' or at least, i feel like alot of people do. Unorthodox is a synonym but we generally don't use the term on the same people.

I say all this to say, i still don't understand how the bunny girl is eccentric any more then any of her other defining personality features describe the same behaviors.

Also, the guy is a dragon/elf. I'm officially joining the just write the damn thing crowd.

 

[Jackarandajam]

I guess what I mean is the defining characteristic i see that separates 'crazy people' from 'eccentrics' is eccentrics can actually afford to do what they do, and so while not rich, are not your average person (as you said, they tend to be well known or well respected). I could have worded it better because your definition is surely better but to prop up my point; We don't call the corner jesus preacher wearing a rainbow toga an eccentric, but we do call the young rich son of a celebrity who shows up to a place in batman costumes one. Or even the say, Tony Stark vs someone like the Joker, we'd call the first eccentric, and the later crazy (although, i guess sometimes the Joker is also rich, so that foils my whole idea in some works)

Certainly, my own life circumstances make me see wealth differently then alot of people, so that is probably effecting my view of these types of characters (Not necessarily real people, as I don't care much for them outside of my wonderful job and fellow artists)

You certainly are correct i let the trope define my definition there, but also, there is a line we draw along the meridian of 'can they afford to act this crazy and not go bankrupt?' or at least, i feel like alot of people do. Unorthodox is a synonym but we generally don't use the term on the same people.

I say all this to say, i still don't understand how the bunny girl is eccentric any more then any of her other defining personality features describe the same behaviors.

Also, the guy is a dragon/elf. I'm officially joining the just write the damn thing crowd.

Yeah, I think typically eccentric characters are in some position of authority, whether they're wealthy or a professor or some type of expert.
Storywise, I'd say that's to explain why people put up with them, or why their eccentricities are well known or carefully ignored.
And yeah, it's a behavioral thing. If I had a third eye in the middle of my forehead, that wouldn't be an eccentricity.
If I PAINTED an eye on the middle of my forehead every morning for some obscure personal reason, that would be an eccentricity.