Do you gravitate toward particular body types?

[Jackarandajam]

Reading back it's still way too tropey for me. The evil eunuch would be a funny choice, but not a very good serious one.
Honestly it would be easier and less tropey to make her a barbarian and straight up topless, and him a sophisticated city boy utterly flabbergasted and comically unable to concentrate at all on swordplay.

 

[Finchbearer]

Here's how I would do a scene where a boobalicious swordswoman meets a yolked male Mc in battle and the male Mc is distracted by her physically:

Previous POV from the woman:
She's at a party on a mission in which she is using her sexuality to get close to the target. She doesn't eat certain foods at the banquet. She's carefully selected her clothing. Her behaviour is fully directed to entice. Her internal dialogue is clearly in conflict with her behavior; she's a professional killer. Maybe she's extremely vain based on a long line of successful missions, also teetering on the edge of aging out of the blossom of youth, seeing less of the blatant interest of the younger men at the party and more intimidation and that concerns her.
Maybe her target is actually a really decent guy, but wrong place wrong time at some point in his career. She takes him out but hates it, thinking about disappearing. Her personal convictions are growing as she gets older and sees more of how the world works, getting in the way of her previously cold, clear purpose.
Her contact gives her another mission, she suspects the agency is done with her and trying to get her killed, but she accepts. She needs one more missions worth of money to disappear.
(Tropey as heck, but could be pulled off.)

Previous POV from the man:
He's also vain (interesting dynamic there).
Other than that, fairly typical big guy, good sense of humor, highly trained and very professional, a lot of battles under his belt.
(More backstory obv, maybe his father was a politician and he was raised to be hyperfixated on the importance of physical appearance.) Charasmatic candor is important; (the possibility of talking instead of fighting needs to be made a logical manifestation of his personality).

The battle:

The woman is out of her comfort zone; this is more battle than manipulation. Shes in a huge hurry between locations but does the best with the clothes she's got, cutting up dresses to make leg wraps, etc. She has to get to the location unnoticed so rigs a skirt to cover what is essentially a ninja outfit with a top that exposes the amount of cleavage society expects from a woman walking around town. Maybe she considers the possibility that she might get something out of the exchange by leaning a little farther into presentation since there won't be very many words exchanged.
She's very worried. She thinks she's probably going to die.
She goes in, confronts her target. They battle; her target is a eunuch and an extremely skilled swordsman. Toying with her. She's gonna die.
Meathead busts in, there's a brief exchange and he kills the eunuch.
Meathead turns to her. She's enraged at her failure and ready to cut her way out. She forgets how she's dressed until she notices a smile playing at the corners of his mouth and his eyes flitting up and down.
He says he has to turn her in, even they seemed like they had the same goal.
She attacks, he defends and eventually throws her off.
He's really serious for a sec and then laughs a little, eyes darting down and up again.
"It's just. This is not what I was expecting. Please excuse me. Again?" Brandishing the sword.

She realized that this guy wants to talk and relaxes a little. This is more up her alley.

---END ATTEMPT---

Best I can do off the cuff. I think I could make this version work without it coming off dumb.
Priorities would be:
1. making her sexualization make logical sense, and
2. making his willingness to be distracted make sense.

If you’re using a eunuch because sexuality is taken out of the context then I can see the logic, however what if she walks in and it’s not clear who this person is? Does the eunuch get marked out by a particular uniform or signifying clothing to tell others that they are in fact a castrated male person, or is it more unclear and the truth is revealed later on?

You’re following the woman in this small section of text and yet when the white knight shows up, you start telling the story from his perspective. To take away the male gaze from this particular example you need to tell the story from the woman’s perpspective IMO to make it stronger.

So, she wished to use her sexuality as a weapon essentially, and she’s just been ‘saved’ by a man, to give her continued agency, you need to see things from her POV. How can she surmise from being in the company of this male character that she can in fact manipulate him? She can tell that he is vulnerable because he is underestimating her, because she is a woman, and because he is so arrogant to think that she will find him attractive too.

How can she tell? She’s a master at reading body language. She can tell by the way he looks at her that he’s attracted on a surface level, and that is enough for her to play into that, because it’s about life or death.

You could of course flip it to where he is also manipulating her. A double cross.

 

[Jackarandajam]

If you’re using a eunuch because sexuality is taken out of the context then I can see the logic, however what if she walks in and it’s not clear who this person is? Does the eunuch get marked out by a particular uniform or signifying clothing to tell others that they are in fact a castrated male person, or is it more unclear and the truth is revealed later on?

You’re following the woman in this small section of text and yet when the white knight shows up, you start telling the story from his perspective. To take away the male gaze from this particular example you need to tell the story from the woman’s perpspective IMO to make it stronger.

So, she wished to use her sexuality as a weapon essentially, and she’s just been ‘saved’ by a man, to give her continued agency, you need to see things from her POV. How can she surmise from being in the company of this male character that she can in fact manipulate him? She can tell that he is vulnerable because he is underestimating her, because she is a woman, and because he is so arrogant to think that she will find him attractive too.

How can she tell? She’s a master at reading body language. She can tell by the way he looks at her that he’s attracted on a surface level, and that is enough for her to play into that, because it’s about life or death.

You could of course flip it to where he is also manipulating her. A double cross.

My illustration was a throw-away synopsis to illustrate the importance of backstory.

If pee-pee stomping is really high on the priority list just flip the whole script, make the man a male escort/assassin and the woman a hulking, battle hardened warrior, I couldn't care less.

Maybe the eunuch is wearing spandex.

 

[Finchbearer]

That’s how I read it, where you begin with the POV of the female character but then we can taken out of the POV and taken directly to the male gaze. Pee pee stomping ?

 

[Renè Williams]

That’s how I read it, where you begin with the POV of the female character but then we can taken out of the POV and taken directly to the male gaze. Pee pee stomping ?

Even though i understand exactly what he meant, i still couldn't not envision someone stomping in someones urine as they urinate on the ground and I am not sure how i feel about that

 

[Jackarandajam]

Even though i understand exactly what he meant, i still couldn't not envision someone stomping in someones urine as they urinate on the ground and I am not sure how i feel about that

That's pee, not peepee. Words are important

 

[Renè Williams]

That's pee, not peepee. Words are important

Tomato, potato

 

[Jackarandajam]

If you’re using a eunuch because sexuality is taken out of the context then I can see the logic, however what if she walks in and it’s not clear who this person is? Does the eunuch get marked out by a particular uniform or signifying clothing to tell others that they are in fact a castrated male person, or is it more unclear and the truth is revealed later on?

You’re following the woman in this small section of text and yet when the white knight shows up, you start telling the story from his perspective. To take away the male gaze from this particular example you need to tell the story from the woman’s perpspective IMO to make it stronger.

So, she wished to use her sexuality as a weapon essentially, and she’s just been ‘saved’ by a man, to give her continued agency, you need to see things from her POV. How can she surmise from being in the company of this male character that she can in fact manipulate him? She can tell that he is vulnerable because he is underestimating her, because she is a woman, and because he is so arrogant to think that she will find him attractive too.

How can she tell? She’s a master at reading body language. She can tell by the way he looks at her that he’s attracted on a surface level, and that is enough for her to play into that, because it’s about life or death.

You could of course flip it to where he is also manipulating her. A double cross.

Also, I just read it back and I never left her POV. It's the female gaze all the way through. She watches his eyes and his mouth, and he says something to her. Not sure how that's the infamous male gaze.

I just didn't include all the details that I obviously set up with her back story. Yeah, she's analyzing him, that's why she relaxes.

The White knight thing goes back to the trope subversion thing, and would create the exact kind of plot contortionism I hate.
You'd end up with a Mary Sue who flaunts her body because she's a liberated independent woman (because she has no need to manipulate because shes so good at everything), who's better at swords then everybody and also a super effective assassin and, and, and....

Him "saving" her would, in the case above, set her up perfectly to manipulate him, it would be a huge stroke of luck for her.

She's a cold, competent assassin that was out of her lane on this mission. We've seen her do her thing in the story already and she's really good at it.
He's a tough, seasoned swordsman who was exactly in his lane on this mission, which is why his POV wouldn't need a setup scenario.

The whole drill was to try to reverse engineer the scenario outlined in another part of this thread, not make up a new story, hence the bold header.

 

[pmmg]

OMG. For me this illustrates everything that is wrong with so many stories written by men.

Well, I am sorry for that. I fear that some forms of entertainment that may remain elusive to you.

But you are right, All I notice is her sword....

The Op'er has said:

I would still like to know how I could possibly describe a character as 'hot would smash' type of female character (curvy in the right places) without offending people.

My answer is still, write it true to the perception of the POV character, and stop worrying about what offends people.

They posted later that they did not have the POV characters reaction available.

I think that's where I fail at it most of the time, these types of character descriptions tend to come from the narrator (and not the POV character) despite that not being the intention.

I am not sure what they mean by that. But if more examples are needed, I am sure we can provide.

Better...how about he posts the example this is all about and we can speak to that directly.

 

[Queshire]

Well, I am sorry for that. I fear that some forms of entertainment that may remain elusive to you.

But you are right, All I notice is her sword....

The Op'er has said:


My answer is still, write it true to the perception of the POV character, and stop worrying about what offends people.

They posted later that they did not have the POV characters reaction available.


I am not sure what they mean by that. But if more examples are needed, I am sure we can provide.

Better...how about he posts the example this is all about and we can speak to that directly.

Image is broken.

 

[Renè Williams]

Image is broken.

It's working for me.

 

[Renè Williams]

But you are right, All I notice is her sword....

Funny, I noticed she's left herself completely vulnerable to attack across the midsection for OTK, hahaha

But, in all seriousness, this picture does describe part of the problem; Form over function. This stance would not be held by a warrior, it makes no sense and objectifies her body for the viewer, which is fine in this medium, but in a novel would come off as awkward, at best. Not to mention her scarf and neck-collar are instant no's for any real serious warrior using a short-range melee weapon who wants to survive more then a pleb attacking them...

Which goes to show; Medium makes a HUGE difference

 

[Queshire]

Worked when I opened it in a new tab, but considering the ads that appeared on said new tab I would not recommend doing so when you're at work.

 

[Renè Williams]

Worked when I opened it in a new tab, but considering the ads that appeared on said new tab I would not recommend doing so when you're at work.

Oh No! I didn't have to do that, it just shows up in the forum, hmmmm...ads you say? Where's my wallet....

 

[Queshire]

So there's really only two important bits of information that the audience gets from the picture PMMG linked. The first is that she uses a sword. The second is that she's wearing a clothing based off of a school uniform, however whether that information is important varies on context. It'd tell us a lot more about the character if she was, say, part of a secret revolutionary organization looking to overthrow the king vs if she was a student at a school that taught supernatural fighters. The rest? Well, cute anime girls are common enough that it's not worth commenting on.

You have a lot less room to work with when you're writing about a character in fiction. Most of a character's actual appearance is going to rely on the audience's imagination. When you describe a certain trait you're signaling that either you or the person whose POV the story is following views it as important.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Well, I am sorry for that. I fear that some forms of entertainment that may remain elusive to you.

But you are right, All I notice is her sword....

The Op'er has said:


My answer is still, write it true to the perception of the POV character, and stop worrying about what offends people.

They posted later that they did not have the POV characters reaction available.


I am not sure what they mean by that. But if more examples are needed, I am sure we can provide.

Better...how about he posts the example this is all about and we can speak to that directly.

I don't have the full scene written yet (I started writing it yesterday) but I do have the outline.
-the POV character is the blacksmith (He's also a swordsman but he focuses more on his blacksmithing) who has very little emotional output.
-he observes the female character (noting that she seems slightly stout compared to the rest of her species), takes note of the fact that her body is in good form other than that one noticeable part. He also suspects that this may be some hidden strategy of hers.
-she's over there grand standing to a crowd about her feats of strength and getting annoyed that he keeps questioning if she actually did those things.
-both characters wind up sizing each-other up for different reasons.
-classic anime fight nonsense proving that a lot of her feats of strength weren't just embellishments of simpler tales. Though confident, she's thrown off by the fact that he can even keep up with her, let alone survive more than one solid blow.
-Banter between the two progresses from them wanting to break each-other's necks to being kind of turned on by the other one. (Throughout the fight)
-Both characters come to the conclusion that they actually like each-other, but realize they need to give the crowd a good finish to the 'show' and continue the fight anyway.
-later scene of the blacksmith consoling her. She's genuinely confused as to why he is the way he is, he tells her that if he knew he wouldn't be lost in his own thoughts all the time. Further comments that she's one of the few people able to drag him out of his own thoughts, even if he was still confused about the exact stimulants.

 

[pmmg]

Well. please write it up and post if you feel it needs some looking at.

I am not sure where the anime vibe appeared in this thread, is it supposed to have an anime feel?

 

[Queshire]

Well. please write it up and post if you feel it needs some looking at.

I am not sure where the anime vibe appeared in this thread, is it supposed to have an anime feel?

Right here:

that's a bit of the nature of writing something anime inspired. A lot of stuff in anime is quite off the rails, even if we remove all the 'sexy' stuff. Kinda falls flat on it's face when you try to appeal to people who don't understand anime.

 

[Finchbearer]

Also, I just read it back and I never left her POV. It's the female gaze all the way through. She watches his eyes and his mouth, and he says something to her. Not sure how that's the infamous male gaze.

I just didn't include all the details that I obviously set up with her back story. Yeah, she's analyzing him, that's why she relaxes.

The White knight thing goes back to the trope subversion thing, and would create the exact kind of plot contortionism I hate.
You'd end up with a Mary Sue who flaunts her body because she's a liberated independent woman (because she has no need to manipulate because shes so good at everything), who's better at swords then everybody and also a super effective assassin and, and, and....

Him "saving" her would, in the case above, set her up perfectly to manipulate him, it would be a huge stroke of luck for her.

She's a cold, competent assassin that was out of her lane on this mission. We've seen her do her thing in the story already and she's really good at it.
He's a tough, seasoned swordsman who was exactly in his lane on this mission, which is why his POV wouldn't need a setup scenario.

The whole drill was to try to reverse engineer the scenario outlined in another part of this thread, not make up a new story, hence the bold header.

You said you wrote it off the cuff, so in fairness to you I was critiquing something not fully formed, and you did go on to say you weren’t happy enough with it. However there are moments within the original outline where you do in fact change the perspective to that of the males, and you do go back and forth a bit with it, which is where I offered up the opinion that I thought it would become more of what you wanted it to become if you kept strictly to the POV of the female character.

Here is where you chop and change POV;

Meathead busts in, there's a brief exchange and he kills the eunuch. < this becomes a passive / omniscient or a change of perspective to the male character. If it were still in the female POV it might read something more like; she watches as a man enters the room, observing him skilfully kill the eunuch.
Meathead turns to her. < passive / male POV. She's enraged at her failure and ready to cut her way out. She forgets how she's dressed until she notices a smile playing at the corners of his mouth and his eyes flitting up and down. < whilst this is from the female characters perspective, it’s clearly more a representation of how the male is observing her, because if you flip this again to the male POV, it would actually make more sense. ‘He watches her clearly enraged at her failure, and, forgetting how she is dressed, he takes the opportunity to take a long look at her body.’
He says he has to turn her in, < male POV. even they seemed like they had the same goal.
She attacks, he defends and eventually throws her off. < male POV.
He's really serious for a sec and then laughs a little, eyes darting down and up again.
"It's just. This is not what I was expecting. Please excuse me. Again?" Brandishing the sword. < male POV

She realized that this guy wants to talk and relaxes a little. This is more up her alley.

I know you said that it’s too tropey, and that’s fair enough, you’d approach this differently, but as far as subversion goes, it’s done the complete opposite and has reinforced the common stereotype that women can only use their sexuality to get by in life and even in the face of not one but two male characters, (including one who doesn’t even have balls) the female character is still helpless and needs to be saved akin to a damsel in distress.

 

[Jackarandajam]

but as far as subversion goes, it’s done the complete opposite and has reinforced the common stereotype that women can only use their sexuality to get by in life and even in the face of not one but two male characters, (including one who doesn’t even have balls) the female character is still helpless and needs to be saved akin to a damsel in distress.

Here's how I would do a scene where a boobalicious swordswoman meets a yolked male Mc in battle and the male Mc is distracted by her physically:

Your answer to the prompt would be, presumably, "I wouldn't." That's fine.

"Damsel -not- in distress," in 2024, is as common a trope as the one it subverts.
Some people will never tire of one, some the other.
I respect that you would avoid ever having a male save a female in your own writing.

This is only one (hypothetical) scene in an entire (hypothetical) book, which may contain many other strong, independent female characters that don't need no man.

Not only did I prioritize presenting her as a very competent character, I even justified her danger by suggesting the people she works for are purposefully trying to put her in a situation outside of her wheelhouse in which she would die.

I think I officially change my (EDIT: hypothetical) outline. No more eunuch! Poof! Gone! Now it's a female were-gorilla. I don't wanna hear another word about the eunuch, he's been officially redacted.

Although I will note that your comment

(including one who doesn’t even have balls)

Is very telling.
Doesn't EVEN have balls.
Not everyone has the same storytelling priorities as you do.

1. No character in a good story should be perfectly competent, that's bad storytelling, even (is everyone sitting down?) If she's a woman.

2. If a woman is dressed provocatively, make sure she's doing it on purpose and for a plot-reason. If the character isn't purposefully sexualizing herself, please don't have a man overtly and openly sexualizing her unless he isn't a good guy. That's when the "male gaze" actually does get really annoying.

3. If your MC is a boy, he can save a girl. That's okay. Just don't over use it.