How far can you go with taboo situations in published fiction? (

[pmmg]

I've only had to pitch two books across the room in my life: The Bible and Uncle Tom's Cabin. But that was a personal choice, and that's okay. To quote one of my absolutely favorite rock operas, "We all have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"

You know....that line from Pilot is his searching for a way to justify his killing of an innocent man. Which, Ironically, he tries everything he can not to do, because he cannot find his truth is different. It's because he gives into the crowds demand, that he allows the mob to overcome his truth. In the end, he condemns him, calling him an innocent puppet. Just sayin....

I don't think that quote means what you think it means--at least, not as Pilot meant it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

You know....that line from Pilot is his searching for a way to justify his killing of an innocent man. Which, Ironically, he tries everything he can not to do, because he cannot find his truth is different. It's because he gives into the crowds demand, that he allows the mob to overcome his truth. In the end, he condemns him, calling him an innocent puppet. Just sayin....

I don't think that quote means what you think it means--at least, not as Pilot meant it.

I think the whole musical means so many things. It's why I love it.

 

[Rexenm]

I think any of those topics are realistic, if watered down. You wouldn’t want a whole slew of it in one go, maybe seperate instances. I think it is impossible to conceptualise a full recollection of details, if they aren’t watered down. Also, you might want to avoid pigeonholing it. There is separation of church and state, you might not even want to include the law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, or so they say, matter cannot be destroyed, etc.

There is something that bothers me about reading books that are boring. So many times I will read through a new book, and just return to something old, before putting it down again. I imagine I pigeonholed myself in early childhood, and am no longer comforted by something I cannot understand, explain.

It is as if I want to reach out across the void and shake a casual handshake that is like childhood, or nursery rimes, completely giving over to totalitarianism or zen, without any clue about either. Maybe one day I’ll write that crime drama that has no relation to truth, only fantasy, but these days I cannot digest a good book without looking with a critical eye, so I will just censor out the details and montage.

Also you gotta watch out for those fish that swim up your pee hole.

 

[BearBear]

Then do it.

Ok

 

[BearBear]

You wouldn’t want a whole slew of it in one go, maybe seperate instances.

Yeah huh I would, open the firehose

 

[Finchbearer]

I think you are spinning us some yarns BearBear, but, feel free to show us the finished work once all is said and done.

 

[JBCrowson]

I suppose that most of you are too young to remember something called 'The National Legion of Decency', a American Catholic organization devoted to banning films and books they considered objectionable or dangerous. It proved, as I recall, similar in effect to banning liquor. Or forbidding one particular kind of apple, which was, as you recall, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Personally I think that the (largely unintentional) effect of the worst depravity you can imagine, should be set alongside the heights to which humanity is capable of rising. As a writer you ignore either at your peril.

There was an episode of Father Ted where Ted was ordered to protest about a film outside the cinema, which resulted in it being the most watched film for years on Craggy Island.

 

[BearBear]

I think you are spinning us some yarns BearBear, but, feel free to show us the finished work once all is said and done.

Ooooh no you don't, it's mine, my preesssssiiousss. Seriously though I'm 40k in.

 

[Renè Williams]

I suppose that most of you are too young to remember something called 'The National Legion of Decency', a American Catholic organization devoted to banning films and books they considered objectionable or dangerous. It proved, as I recall, similar in effect to banning liquor. Or forbidding one particular kind of apple, which was, as you recall, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Personally I think that the (largely unintentional) effect of the worst depravity you can imagine, should be set alongside the heights to which humanity is capable of rising. As a writer you ignore either at your peril.

Or the HAYS Code in filmmaking. Also, I find it odd there's still people who think being disliked for your verbal opinion is a violation of your freedom of speech, as though I as a person have no right to say Nah, I don't like it, but they can say whatever they want, as implied in a response far above. As noted, Freedom of Speech is Freedom from Government Oppression of Speech, not protection from the freedom of the public to condone something or someone. Sad Face

On a side note, responding more to OP here, I think there's a line between Too Much and Too Far. Too Much is a personal taste. Too Far would be glorifying say, rape or child abuse or any of these other things, without pointing out that such glorification is heinous and wrong within the story, since the majority of society would agree these things are wrong.

 

[Renè Williams]

The books I had to put down because they were too disturbing were Lolita and American Psycho - and I don’t conceivably think you could top those.

I haven't read it, but the reviews for Blood Meridian might disagree lol

 

[BearBear]

glorification is heinous and wrong within the story

Hmm, glorification of cp, absolutely. Glorification of vigilante justice, not so much. Good or no?

I don't see myself writing a lolita or like a hero that has slaves, but then a part of me says, "why not?" Then again I also have to actually want to do it and I don't.

I'm writing something with the safeties intentionally off but that doesn't mean I have to throw stuff in just because I'm not excluding it officially.

I do want to write something so hideous that you want to throw up or cry or both at the same time, and that takes emotion that isn't touched in this culture of overused horror/violence tropes and memes blah blah.

 

[Renè Williams]

Hmm, glorification of cp, absolutely. Glorification of vigilante justice, not so much. Good or no?

I don't see myself writing a lolita or like a hero that has slaves, but then a part of me says, "why not?" Then again I also have to actually want to do it and I don't.

I'm writing something with the safeties intentionally off but that doesn't mean I have to throw stuff in just because I'm not excluding it officially.

I do want to write something so hideous that you want to throw up or cry or both at the same time, and that takes emotion that isn't touched in this culture of overused horror/violence tropes and memes blah blah.

In the real world, most vigilante justice either doesn't work, causes more harm then good, or perpetuates the cycle of violence or criminality. Is it good to be a Vigilante if it means you end up in jail, unable to raise your kids? Is it OK to commit an act of vigilantism with little proof, or if it stops actual justice from being wrought? As an example, most cases of real world vigilante justice that aren't murder do not go well for the vigilante and let the criminal off free due to the vigilantes actions. But that doesn't mean you couldn't write it differently, or maybe your world has no real justice, and therefor you can totally go in on being a vigilante because you've removed why it's bad IRL.

In shorter words, there's ALOT of nuance on such a topic as this.

Like i was trying to get at, I think there's plenty of ways to write about most horrid things (including most if not all of what you mentioned) without leaving the reader feeling like your saying something your not, if that makes sense. I would also point out that, to me at least, there's a way to make a story or character or world glorify something while you, as the author, let the reader know what's happening is actually atrocious. In writing, you get ALOT more leeway then say, the movie industry, but you have to helm the responsibility ship with that leeway.

It isn't just about what you write, but how you write it.

Another important step in thought I would take with most of things you asked about in OP; How would someone feel whose been through this if they read my story? You don't have to walk on eggshells, but i feel like you do have to understand the ramifications of whatever you put out into the world.

One thing that comes to mind is the adult industry, honestly. Theres alot of product you could find on the internet depicting faked scenes of things we would agree are horribly wrong; Are they wrong to exist? Not to people who watch them. Because (most of them) they know they are fake and they are not presented to the public at large and in fact, even for the internet, can be hard to accidentally come across. But there is a point to be made about them that they convince men and women to do things that are unsafe, dangerous and deadly to extremely sad results at times. So is that ok? No, it's not, and this is a huge point of contention with the adult industry.

I say this to make an example of who you market to and how makes a huge difference. If you market the book as something else, and people pick it up and find this, i can't imagine much of anyone would 'enjoy' that. Yet, there's a market for everything. So maybe asking, Would I walk on the same side of street as someone who actually is made happy, not just entertained or enthralled, finds actual pleasure by reading my work? Because it will happen, no matter how 'bad', throwup inducing or tearjerking what you write is.

 

[BearBear]

How would someone feel whose been through this if they read my story?

Angry, sickened, depressed, horrified, triggered, in shock, nauseous, trapped in a rabbit hole.

You don't have to walk on eggshells, but i feel like you do have to understand the ramifications of whatever you put out into the world.

Oh I am well aware of the ramifications. All supervillians have to start somewhere.

But seriously, people overlook things like the foster care sex trade and torture while arguing about nonsense on worthless black holes like Facebook and Twitter.bot

I want to peal back their eyelids and tie them down Clockwork Orange style to witness what's right under their noses. And it ain't pretty.

The eggshells you mentioned are a good analogy for the thin shell of civility in this rotten and fetid world of depravity. I couldn't hope to duplicate what we have in this world, I would lose my mind, but I can tickle the surface and let loose the ants in your brain (the reader).

 

[Renè Williams]

I'm gonna have to check out of the thread at this point because, in my personal opinion, if you want people who have been through horrible things to feel triggered or trapped by your writing, then we've already gone very very far off the rails, as well as the self reference to being some sort of supervillain. You're basically just saying you want to do harm; Either that, or you didn't get your point across in a way I can personally understand.

 

[BearBear]

I'm gonna have to check out of the thread at this point because, in my personal opinion, if you want people who have been through horrible things to feel triggered or trapped by your writing, then we've already gone very very far off the rails, as well as the self reference to being some sort of supervillain. You're basically just saying you want to do harm; Either that, or you didn't get your point across in a way I can personally understand.

I want people to wake up, that's all. It's pure activism at its heart. Honestly, this book will likely just be for me. I need to wake up too after all.

I understand your point of view and as I expected and explained in other statements on this site, this book will make half the readers hate me and the other half hate me more. It's going to be intense.

I've written a dozen fantasy novels with rainbows and lollipops, then I didn't touch them for 4 years because they all seem the same and there's no skin in the game for me, no risks. For me to move forward, it's time to grow up or give up. As long as I'm having fun, I'm not giving up.

This post was to see if I need to be worried that the FBI will come knocking on my door at 3am. Love you guys! *wink*

 

[pmmg]

Also, I find it odd there's still people who think being disliked for your verbal opinion is a violation of your freedom of speech, as though I as a person have no right to say Nah, I don't like it, but they can say whatever they want, as implied in a response far above.

I am not sure where that has happened, but okay. You are always free not to like it.

 

[Azul-din]

This has been a very interesting thread. I seem to hear Darth Vader booming 'You do not know the power of the Dark Side.'
and Kahlil Gibran in antiphon saying something like: What shall I say of evil doers, save that they too stand in the light but with their backs turned, seeing only their own shadow'

I did a story once about a very staid Professor in pre-war Germany visiting his home town in Bavaria, meeting a water Nixie who had known him as a child. She appears to him as a very young girl, almost a prepubescent child, and gradually seduces him and drags him into her watery world. Years later after the war, tired and embittered, he returns to his ancestral home and encounters the Nixie again, in her natural form, and standing alongside her is what is unmistakably his child.

There's nothing you can't write about,

 

[Finchbearer]

I think all BearBear has wanted for this thread has been to stir the emotions, to stir the pot or to put it more bluntly to stir s***.

 

[BearBear]

I think all BearBear has wanted for this thread has been to stir the emotions, to stir the pot or to put it more bluntly to stir s***.

Aww come on Finch, am I here just to stir shit? Dang. The thread was helpful to me, sorry if it felt that way to you.

My book is definitely trying to stir shit though, so I can't blame you for conflating the two. Especially since a book is an extension of her author. Yeah it's controversial, yeah the wrong reader won't like it, but it's not going to be caudling or pleasant. I want to stretch my creativity in that direction to the limit and see if I can break. Is that's stirring shit just for that exercise?

I might come across as inhumane or an evildoer but I'm not a big believer in a true separation of good and evil. I'm not writing child porn, I'm not promoting hate speech, but if that stuff exists in my book in a negative light then it's because that shit exists in a and shouldn't be forgotten lest we repeat it. Just to be clear, I'm not writing anything that promotes anything "evil", unless you think vigilantism is evil for example then yeah.

I remember back in 2012 a religious group called My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic evil and promoting witchcraft. So I have some really solid ground to refute naysayers, because dang, if some religious organization wants to censor MLP then they're the evil ones. Sheesh.

 

[BearBear]

To all: if this thread is too controversial or offensive, report it, lock it, delete it, that's okay with me, I got what I wanted and thanks for the responses from everyone.