X Equestris
Maester
"A man chooses, a slave obeys."
No one can ever truly force you to do something, unless they actively take control of your mind or body, at which point you are just as much a victim.
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How much are you willing to forgive to the hero?
- Thread starter fantastic
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"A man chooses, a slave obeys."
No one can ever truly force you to do something, unless they actively take control of your mind or body, at which point you are just as much a victim.
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- #22
Very well. I am not trying to change your opinion. I am just wondering what hero can do before you start hating him.
Laurence
Inkling
What if the Dr. Evil says 'If you do not rape this woman, I will rape her twice.'?
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- #24
This is an excellent example that things are not always black and white. By not raping, you may keep your moral code and push the blame onto antagonist. But it doesn't change the fact woman will be raped twice, making her even more of a victim. Would not doing anything truly be the right thing?
valiant12
Sage
He would find a way not to rape the victim, or he will lose my sympathy. I'm also strongly against torture if the victim is innocent or likeable. Also if your character is a rapist and like to torture people for fun im against him killing people, preferably somebody should kill him before the end of the book.
Tom
Istar
What you're trying to do is raise my blood pressure to dangerously high levels.
Philster401
Maester
Or Luther will murder his family or massacre citizens.
X Equestris
Maester
Why should I believe anything that comes out of this evil fellow's mouth? Nothing is stopping him from raping her, anyway.
Think of the ferry scene in The Dark Knight. Same sort of thing applies to this situation.
valiant12
Sage
if he want to rape her he will rape her regardless of the choice the protagonist make
Philster401
Maester
But you could go on and on all day asking what ifs or about if. It wont matter so I'd just suggest not doing/writing it
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- #31
I'm sorry if I upset you. But when you try to come up with ideas and debate about it, it can sometimes offend other people.
Laurence
Inkling
Of course a situation where the protagonist found a way out would be the most refreshing result; refreshing isn't always the best read though. To be honest, it'd be such an emotionally climactic moment that it could well be the pinnacle of woe/elation in your novel, in which case, the protagonist could get out of it and end the story on a happy note or commit the act and die shortly after, ending the novel.
Either way is good if it's the climax of the story! I can't imagine how the situation would make a comfortable read otherwise.
Laurence
Inkling
Sorry for the double post but this is beside the point. The original question was *if* it was justified. There's always a way to justify anything because there's always a worse alternative to everything bar destroying the universe/sending everyone to 'hell'. So let's assume that the evil man has taken a truth serum before offering the protagonist the ultimatum.
EDIT: But yeah, Philster is right, fantastic, as you can see from the response on this thread (and these are sick and twisted fantasy writers with harder stomachs than most of your readers), it's not worth the trouble.
Russ
Istar
You see this is the entire point that fantastic is missing as he modifies his facts to see where the "rape" line must be drawn.
He thinks that what a reader will or will not accept in a hero is a intellectual/utilitarian argument or exercise. It is not and that is where the fallacy of his search is rooted.
There are some things, rape amongst them, that are such powerful taboos, that produce such a horrific visceral, gut reaction that you cannot intellectualize them away. Our reaction to rape is not based on mathematics, it is not a quantitative analysis like an investment, it is a qualitative judgment about human nature and the essence of right and wrong. It is a heart feeling or a gut reaction.
The potential reader is not Spock, the potential reader is a human.
Too many people believe (thankfully) that rape is such a heinous, craven, destructive act, that it cannot be justified or calculated away.
I count myself in that crowd.
The solution, if the plot demands it, is a brilliant emotional reason for the rape to take place, not to calculate consequences.
"Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees."
Tom
Istar
I'm open to being offended in debates, but not when it's about rape. That's an intensely inflammatory and painful subject, and most people don't like it when you throw it around casually and talk about possible ways to justify it. I believe I'm reasonable in my being upset by your ideas.
I have to ask: In all these situations, would you say the same about torture or murder as you do for rape?
I understand that rape is tangibly different in many ways. It can't be an accident or self-defense. But I don't think these extreme, rather forced circumstances hinge on that.
We're purely hypothetical here. But if there was a woman who was about to conceive a demon, and the guy's choices were: Rape her so that his seed is already implanted and the demon can't be conceived, or kill her for the same effect, or let the rampaging demon be conceived and born, would one be better than the other?
((edit))
I had this page open a bit and can see this got a little more personal. I was only asking this as a thought experiment, and I didn't mean to offend anyone.
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X Equestris
Maester
There are many ways in which one could get around being forced to tell the truth (ex. "I said I wouldn't do it, I didn't say anything about my minions doing it."), but that's beside the point. The villain makes their choice. They are responsible for their own actions, whatever those may be.
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- #38
That is true. They are responsible for their own actions. No matter what he does, you can always: "He did it. It was not my fault."
It is not about you being obliged to help.
The question is, when faced with such situation would you really feel better if you just decided to blame someone else when you potentially could have changed something?
Tom
Istar
@Devor
Murder and torture are like rape--can't be justified. But for me, rape is the threshold, since in my mind it's by far the most brutal, most cruelly intimate act of the three. Murder and torture can be committed in cold blood or in the heat of anger, but there's something about rape that makes it neither of these. It's...insidious.
A rapist not only takes away a person's consent by violating their body, they take pleasure in taking it away. Rape is so easily tied to murder in that way, because it's essentially the same thing--taking something away from someone. Think of Ted Bundy or the Green River Killer. Both of those men took pleasure in both raping and murdering, because both acts delivered the same kind of emotional payoff.
If the hero had the choice between raping or killing, however, I'd choose killing. It may be the ultimate method of taking away a person's control, but to me it seems far less cruel than rape. Rape leaves you alive, and you have to deal with the fear and anger, and of knowing that another person willingly violated your rights as a human being. In some cases, death is kinder than life.
Murder and torture are like rape--can't be justified. But for me, rape is the threshold, since in my mind it's by far the most brutal, most cruelly intimate act of the three. Murder and torture can be committed in cold blood or in the heat of anger, but there's something about rape that makes it neither of these. It's...insidious.
A rapist not only takes away a person's consent by violating their body, they take pleasure in taking it away. Rape is so easily tied to murder in that way, because it's essentially the same thing--taking something away from someone. Think of Ted Bundy or the Green River Killer. Both of those men took pleasure in both raping and murdering, because both acts delivered the same kind of emotional payoff.
If the hero had the choice between raping or killing, however, I'd choose killing. It may be the ultimate method of taking away a person's control, but to me it seems far less cruel than rape. Rape leaves you alive, and you have to deal with the fear and anger, and of knowing that another person willingly violated your rights as a human being. In some cases, death is kinder than life.
X Equestris
Maester
It's not about blame. The villain in this set up the situation, and carried it out. That's two choices they had to make. Two chances to turn back. You have no proof, absolutely none, that they will keep their word. Why compromise yourself in such a way, for an outcome that is unlikely at best, and outright not going to happen at worst?
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