Is it unfair to dislike characters because they are "strong" female characters?

[AElisabet]

I'm not trying to imply it is. I'm saying that when a writer invests in the "strong female character" archetype, their goal tends to be propaganda. Not art.

Yes, this is often the case. Clarification noted.

So we can agree

 

[AElisabet]

Man, I've been wanting to either read or write about an older mother protagonist for the longest time. I really should get on that.
It's strange that for as important as mothers tend to be in every human society, there are very few works of fiction that focuses on them. Mothers are almost always supporting characters.

I'm on it! I'm on it!

I'm working on an epic fantasy with a heroine who is also a mother (or at least becomes one halfway through the story and it is central). Her own mother is also a major protagonist (and not dead! Totally alive and central to the plot well into grandmotherhood.)

It goes without saying, but all genders - all people - deserve to have their complexity recognized, and not just to serve a "message" but because it just makes for better, more interesting fiction. I don't like stereotypical male characters either. I don't like anti-men propaganda in fiction (I'm married to one - he's pretty cool). A story with complex female characters deserves equally complex male characters.

 

[Peat]

Man, I've been wanting to either read or write about an older mother protagonist for the longest time. I really should get on that.
It's strange that for as important as mothers tend to be in every human society, there are very few works of fiction that focuses on them. Mothers are almost always dead.

Edited for cheap joke.

I thought of this when reviewing Pawn of Prophecy the other day. Polgara is arguably the real protagonist of the Belgariad the same way Samwise is arguably the real protagonist of Lord of the Rings. She's certainly second in billing after Garion.

And I just couldn't think of any other maternal figures who receive such prominence in fantasy other than maybe Isana in the Codex Alera. Even then, there are complications to their maternal status. (Trying to dance around spoilers here).

Flippin' crazy man. One of the most revered and richest roles in human society and as far as Fantasy is concerned, it might as well be so much chopped tripe. Usually fairly literally.

 

[Nimue]

Paladin of Souls by Lois McMaster-Bujold is a great book, and the main character Ista is not only a mother but over 40. I really wish there were more characters out there like her, the wealth of her experiences and the uniqueness of her viewpoint and motives alike. Queen Dowager and former saint is a fantastic role for a main character! Bujold does a great job of choosing unusual MCs, in the common run of things, and writing them completely believably--old former-slave councilors, main characters that are disabled to one degree or another...

Agreed, though, that it's not exactly classic fantasy, and I can't think of another example that isn't one character of many in a political fantasy like Kay or Martin's books.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This ties into the cultural popularity of the "strong female" archetype. Motherhood is not respected and valued as much as it should be in modern society, probably because it's a "traditional" role and much effort has been spent trying to break away from traditional ideas of what the role of women should be. So, we admire the "strong, independent woman who hates feminine things and does everything a man can do" and devalue women in the role of wife and mother. Unintentionally (usually) but, our society is mirrored by the books we write.

Why isn't a female character who is just a mom and doesn't fight bad guys or ride horses or shoot arrows considered a "strong female character?" Molly Weasley from the Harry Potter series is one of my favorite mom characters and strong female characters in fantasy fiction. My mom is probably the strongest person I know, but in a book she wouldn't be called a "strong female character."

I wouldn't either. I don't fight bad guys with weapons. I sit around and write books.

 

[WooHooMan]

Agreed, though, that it's not exactly classic fantasy, and I can't think of another example that isn't one character of many in a political fantasy like Kay or Martin's books.

There's a Japanese comic called Mother Sarah which has a character who is both a mother of three and a very, very tough lady. Shame that she is the only example I can think of when I think heroic mothers.

Also, Mrs. Brisby/Frisby from Secret of NIHM. Five star protagonist, right there!

It goes without saying, but all genders - all people - deserve to have their complexity recognized, and not just to serve a "message" but because it just makes for better, more interesting fiction.

In my experience, you aren't likely to get complex people when your chief concern is "I need to make a statement about the role of demographic X in today's society".
When your goal is try tell a story about people and emotions and human nature, that's when you get complex characters.

I think the term "strong female character" is kind of telling. Something about it says "what the character is matters more than who the character is or what she does". Am I the only one who gets that vibe?

I'm on it! I'm on it!

I'm working on an epic fantasy with a heroine who is also a mother (or at least becomes one halfway through the story and it is central). Her own mother is also a major protagonist (and not dead! Totally alive and central to the plot well into grandmotherhood.)

Hurry up and write this! I want to read it.

 

[Devor]

Given that I'm trying to do Trope Reboots now, this might sound a little hypocritical of me. But for me, these kinds of phrases and labels and definitions are just an abstract starting point in a design phase. I don't usually look at a character and think, "This is a strong female character," let alone the corollary, "I have an opinion about that."

You can switch "strong female character" with "Chosen One" or "Dark Lord" or anything else you'd like. If I have an opinion on it, it's only during that design/creation phase, and it drops by the time I'm considering an actual fully developed story because the story and even the character are so much more than that one characteristic.

So during the design phase, considering what I or somebody else might be thinking when they decide to go with the strong female character . . . . I think it depends. It's not a trope that I'm drawn to. It usually gets its power from the contradiction of what you "expect" from a woman and what you expect from a warrior. Even if the point is to try and disprove expectations, it seems a little too focused on that real world social point for me.

But again, I don't read about Brienne of Tarth and think "Author duude's trying to get all up in my face and tell me something about women" or "do I think it's realistic for a woman to really get this strong? Let me think about that." By the point we're talking about Brienne of Tarth, that abstract trope has been buried in immersive details so that I barely think about it, and probably wouldn't at all if it wasn't for conversations like this one.


Note: To be super-clear, I mean female characters who are defined by their physical strength.

 

[FifthView]

Mothering takes a lot of time and effort, especially in a medieval type of setting. Slipping in the occasional dungeon crawl might often be out of the question. Cersei at least has the benefit of an army of servants.

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[Heliotrope]

Man FifthView, you and I are always on the same page.

I was going to mention Cercie last night.

I think that this entire conversation is geared towards the "Brienne of Tarth" type character? OR the Arya Stark type character? To be totally honest I have actually never seen the trope presented in a way I didn't like (The Paperbag Princess? I loved that). So if someone could direct me to novel where this trope is actually done badly, not just hypothetically done badly, I would love to see it.

On the other side, for me, Strong Female Character is a woman who has some gumption and gets stuff done. My favorites are Cercie, as mentioned above, also Morgaine from Mists of Avalon, or Scarlett O'Hara from Gone With The Wind. I also loved the French Princess in Braveheart and Lucilla in Gladiator (also a mother). All these characters, to me, were presented as "Strong Female Characters."

I loved them all.

 

[Russ]

And who can forget Moorcock's Empress Gloriana...?

 

[FifthView]

@Helio:

I'd written a longer comment last night, then deleted it, similar to yours. Please point out to me the bad examples, because the books I read don't have them. Also, I'm quite fine with the female "helper" supporting character, the nurturing friend, sister, mother type of character the MC returns to for solace, comfort, aid. Does that make me evil? Even most of those supporting characters have strong personalities–a rock for purchase in the middle of a storm at sea.

I've recently been watching Supergirl S1 on Netflix, and I admit to feeling a little perturbed at the way she can become hyperemotional, filled with self-doubt, and can vacillate between plans of action because of those things. But then I remember Arrow on the CW network, and to a lesser extent The Flash, and think, meh, it's more that YA CW-ish sort of kneejerk scriptwriting and directing than any sort of negative "strong female character" trope. Even male superheroes are portrayed in those ways.

And besides, Cat Grant on Supergirl is a phenomenal strong female character:

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, I'm not sure I get this hate either lol.

One of my favorite tropes is the bad ass latina girl character (typically played by Michelle Rodriguez).

I guess maybe the "strong female character" can be lumped into the "mary sue", but I've actually never seen this done in a novel. TV or Movies maybe? Like Cat Woman with Halle Berry? But like you mentioned, I think that is more the cheap writing and directing than the actual characterization itself? And like you said, even male characters can be presented that way?

I think, for me, the issue is more one of feminism. The fact that there seems to be no "female character" than anyone likes. We don't like them strong, but we don't like them weak either. I have seen certain literary magazines have "no mothers" in their submission packages because they are tired of "women being driven only by protecting their children", but I have also seen "no bad ass mary sue characters" as well.

So where is the balance? Why are there restrictions on female characters, but not on male characters?

But this could quickly run into a feminist debate.... so I will stop here.

My husband and I were discussing this last night when I deleted my long post, and he told me this lovely lady was his childhood crush:

 

[Nimue]

Mmhmm. I could get into a very long post here about the different angles this "strong female character" hate comes from and why I'm kind of leery of it but also not always enthusiastic about the trope itself... But maybe the strongest ground I have to stand on is my own experience and examples that I've actually read. When I was younger (10-15ish) I had a real penchant for what my mom sometimes called "women with swords" stories, the best and most memorable of which were The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley, Sabriel by Garth Nix, and the Protector of the Small series by Tamora Pierce. All had physically strong and indeed sword-wielding female characters, who were also all complex, human, drivers of their own stories. I tended to stick to writing "women with swords" stories at that point too, and while I've gradually come around to a broader view of the roles a heroine might have, I can't hate on those books for embracing the swords and combat and ass-kicking. It's a starting place, and a very appealing one for young girls, against other messages that might be flying their way.

It's entirely possible that there are loads of shallow, derivative, "strong" female characters in say, television writing, or action move writing, or pulp fiction, or male-oriented adventure fantasy fiction. But...I don't read or watch any of that, and to be honest weak characterization might be endemic anyway. As Fifth brought up, and the OP as well, the question might be whether the dislike is disproportionate.

 

[Peat]

There's a difference - to me at least - between strong and "strong".

Strong can be... anything I guess. That seems a weak way of putting it but strong people can be anything. Feminism is about letting women be anything they want to be. Strength comes in all shapes and sizes.

"Strong" is only "strong" if it can kick ass. Its 'Okay, listen up, audiences says they love watching women kick ass, so make sure its in the movie'. Its that 2D checklist character that only exists to look gorgeous, punch things, and deliver a few snarky lines if lucky. And, err, guilty as charged, I love characters like that. But I dislike how often that's the only good game in town for female characters - 'You can be sexy and punch things, or sexy and kiss the hero after getting your tits out'. And I dislike how "strong" is often only "strong" as long as it doesn't overshadow the male hero. I dislike how you sometimes you can't compare 'strong' with strong with weak in the same piece of media because woah now, lets not get overboard with the amount of women. In fairness - I doubt many people actively set out to do that. Just happens. Dislike that too tbh but hey, hate the game, love the player. Nobody asked to be brought up in a very biased society and when we do recognise it and try to balance it, people often do often bring out the most awful thin stereotypes. Like the "strong" female character.

I guess this link deserves to be reposted again - I hate Strong Female Characters

I have to say, it seems more of a Hollywood thing than a fantasy thing. Although I think some of Gemmell's female characters show signs of it. And it totally is a feminism thing. Art seems all in a dither about how to portray women and ends up making a few too many statements and a few too little characters.

 

[AElisabet]

When I think of Strong Female Characters I dislike, I think of characters like in Graceling (ugh) and even Arya Stark (who along with Jon Snow is one of - IMHO - the more boring characters in Game of Thrones). I read a little Tamora Pierce and couldn't really connect with Alanna either. So there are a few examples.

I'm a mother of daughters, I'm not cool with the subtle message of so many of the books they will eventually pick up and read to be "boy stuff is cool and exciting, girl stuff is lame."

My little girls love their princess dresses. And they love playing ninja and dragon rider (I'm the dragon). And they love swords. Especially with princess dresses.

I remember being a little girl, and we got dirty and played in the woods and climbed trees AND liked to play dress up and with dolls and wear our mother's makeup. I really hate that so much YA and fantasy fiction puts a dichotomy between these things in the name of "Strong Female Characters" when for real life girls that dichotomy just isn't there - and putting it there sends an awful message to young female readers.

Because the message isn't "you can be whatever you want". The message is "girly stuff is stupid - female characters are only interesting if they do stereotypical boy and men stuff, and don't fall in any sort of committed love."

EW. NO.

In my experience most girls and women IRL don't think or live like this. They don't aspire to this. They are way more complex in their dreams and interests. Why are there so many fantasies that think this is "feminist" or somehow speaks broadly to the experience of women?

And it drives a lot of female readers away from fantasy, starting young, which I think is very sad. I think of so many friends of mine who used to love fantasy, are totally open to secondary worlds, magic, were Harry Potter fangirls, obsess over GOT (the show, not the books so much) but as adults read mostly "book club" fiction, lots of AS Byatt, and Outlander because they feel that - unless you dig deep - there is nothing in genre fantasy that is relevant to their experience.

The week before I left my old job, my coworkers and I (all who are GOT obsessed, and all who are women under 36 + one gay man) went out to happy hour. We got drunk and started assigning a character to everyone in our office. The plotter who was the "Littlefinger", the secret keeper who was "Varys", etc.

When they got to me, that said "AND YOU ARE SANSA! Because everyone thinks you are are so nice until…whoaaa… you let the dogs out!" "Yeah, you are badass, like Sansa." "Whenever we need to get someone to shut sh*t down with a smile, its like 'call A------!' Because you are our Sansa.'" "What are we going to do without our Sansa!"

To a group of 30 something women, Sansa was a badass.

Is that how Sansa usually gets labeled in fantasy Fandom? Is she considered a Strong Female Character?

FWIW, none of these women read fantasy books. And I don't think it is because they have something against secondary worlds or are literary snobs.

There are a lot of women who do read fantasy. There are women who do like Action Girls. Not denying that. And there are good fantasy books out there with real, complex female characters (as hard as they can be to find at the bookstore). There are good, complex, well written female characters who are "action women".

But there is also a disconnect between the fantasy genre and a lot of female readers. And the pervasiveness of the Strong Female Character - the sexy assassin in leather, the warrior chick, the Girl who Hates Marriage, etc. and the contempt for "girly" things is part of that disconnect.

******

And to the "mothering is time consuming" comment above - mothering in ANY culture is time consuming. Doesn't mean mothers just spend all their time gazing at their babies. Feeding, diapering, disciplining, that stuff all becomes second nature. It doesn't consume much time at all. I spent a teeny portion of my day wiping bums and feeding chirpy little mouths.

The most time consuming thing about motherhood is finding things to get out of the house and do with the kids all day. Take the ring to Mordor you say? Well let me pack some juice boxes and we are on it. Sounds more interesting than going to the same playground or museum for the 10000th time.

There is no "but it's medieval" excuse for excluding women from having a variety of roles in fantasy. It's either a failure of will, or of imagination, or just a lack of fantasy writers who respect or know first hand what mothers, wives, and other Non-Action chicks do all day.

Sorry, but this topic is one that just really sets my teeth on edge. I feel passionate about because I am woman, I love being a woman, and I love and am passionate about fantasy and want to see it be the big, diverse genre it can be. There is so much potential in fantasy that is not being fully realized because of ideas about the limits of female characters.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

So I like strong female characters. The problem I have is when people try to pass off a character as "strong" when they mistake strength for pure ass holery. There are a few characters I can think of, usually on TV, where the character is supposed to be strong but in reality they are weak and their strength is just being a jerk.

As an example of a strong character I like the pirate captain in the second Gentlemen Bastard book Red Seas Under Red Skies. She is a BAMF, but she is also fairly well rounded and is neither overly emotional nor ever becomes a D.I.D.

A bad strong character is Sky White in the later seasons of breaking bad. All of a sudden this DARE mom tries to help in the criminal empire, it was just blech for me. She is cutting and mean and has no strength on her own. I liked her better when she was straight up opposed to Walter's criminal empire.

 

[FifthView]

And to the "mothering is time consuming" comment above - mothering in ANY culture is time consuming. Doesn't mean mothers just spend all their time gazing at their babies. Feeding, diapering, disciplining, that stuff all becomes second nature. It doesn't consume much time at all. I spent a teeny portion of my day wiping bums and feeding chirpy little mouths.

The most time consuming thing about motherhood is finding things to get out of the house and do with the kids all day. Take the ring to Mordor you say? Well let me pack some juice boxes and we are on it. Sounds more interesting than going to the same playground or museum for the 10000th time.

There is no "but it's medieval" excuse for excluding women from having a variety of roles in fantasy. It's either a failure of will, or of imagination, or just a lack of fantasy writers who respect or know first hand what mothers, wives, and other Non-Action chicks do all day.

Yeah, and I wrote Mothering takes a lot of time and effort, especially in a medieval type of setting.

So "mothering in ANY culture is time consuming" as you say. But it's the especially part I think you don't understand.

If it's time consuming in ANY culture, and so is time consuming in OUR culture, take our culture and then remove all the modern appliances and other technologies we use. Take away the supply chains for food and the gas/oil/electricity that power those technologies. Forget paying the electric bill or propane bill, and keep that wood fire going instead. Forget having the convenience of a public school system to act as daycare or babysitter for most of the day. Forget hospitals, doctors, and effective medicines that reduce healing time. The list goes on.

Of course one could imagine a lot of convenience stores or supermarkets with a steady supply of fruit boxes for the long trip to Mordor, or some fantasy equivalent. It's fantasy. I could imagine a younger Weasley family going on just such an adventure, with Ron and the other children in tow as Arthur and Molly set off on such a quest. Why not?

But it's not an excuse so much as a reality for those who like to write in a more down-to-earth or realistic vein.

 

[Nimue]

Aelisabet, I can see where you're coming from. The answer is undoubtedly that we need more variety--of complex, compelling female characters of every stripe but particularly underrepresented ones. Honestly makes for more interesting stories and perspectives. I think over the years, my bookshelf has expanded from a lot of those tomboy and/or fighting stories to women who are not only warriors but witches, seers, camp-followers, musicians, wives and mothers, queens, peacemakers, scholars, cinnamon-roll bakers... And for every one of those I wish there were more. (My library of beloveds is a small one. As an aside, I've never liked GOT enough to read it, and I also didn't like the Alanna series as a kid, not because of the swashbuckling but because of the...too much of everything, and the writing quality. You can definitely tell it was Pierce's first series.) I don't have much of an issue with that criticism of the trope.

I've more of a bone to pick with professed non- or anti-feminist folks who criticize the strong female character or the Mary Sue without giving the same excorciation to unrealistic action-jocks or male wish-fulfillment characters. Often from the same corners, Cersei is decried as a bitch, and Sansa as a boring pushover. It's the general hating-on central female characters that can sometimes seep into a discussion like this, and certainly has before on this forum.

 

[AElisabet]

Yeah, and I wrote Mothering takes a lot of time and effort, especially in a medieval type of setting.

So "mothering in ANY culture is time consuming" as you say. But it's the especially part I think you don't understand.

If it's time consuming in ANY culture, and so is time consuming in OUR culture, take our culture and then remove all the modern appliances and other technologies we use. Take away the supply chains for food and the gas/oil/electricity that power those technologies. Forget paying the electric bill or propane bill, and keep that wood fire going instead. Forget having the convenience of a public school system to act as daycare or babysitter for most of the day. Forget hospitals, doctors, and effective medicines that reduce healing time. The list goes on.

Of course one could imagine a lot of convenience stores or supermarkets with a steady supply of fruit boxes for the long trip to Mordor, or some fantasy equivalent. It's fantasy. I could imagine a younger Weasley family going on just such an adventure, with Ron and the other children in tow as Arthur and Molly set off on such a quest. Why not?

But it's not an excuse so much as a reality for those who like to write in a more down-to-earth or realistic vein.

No, I heard the "especially." And I was being fasicious about the juice boxes.

Mothering, to put it more simply, is, in any culture, something women do while they do a lot of other things. It's not all consuming, sucking up every second of a woman's day. Women mother while accomplishing a lot of things at the same time. Women bring their kids along while they do things. Women have always been capable of doing this. They mother while working in fields, they do it while gathering berries. They do it while fleeing war. They do it while fighting war. They did it immigrating to other countries and pioneering to new lands. In the real world and in history.

But yet it is considered not "down to earth" or "realistic" to write fantasy that includes mothers who go on make believe adventures? I would say it is every bit as realistic - and more common - than many of the Strong Female Characters who fit the violent stereotype.

To not be able to imagine something like that is a failure of imagination.

 

[AElisabet]

I've more of a bone to pick with professed non- or anti-feminist folks who criticize the strong female character or the Mary Sue without giving the same excorciation to unrealistic action-jocks or male wish-fulfillment characters. Often from the same corners, Cersei is decried as a bitch, and Sansa as a boring pushover. It's the general hating-on central female characters that can sometimes seep into a discussion like this, and certainly has before on this forum.

Yes. So many times, yes.