What are your religious views?

[Black Dragon]

Brian,

I think that you hit the nail on the head: the problem is power. Power has the potential to corrupt almost anyone. Because religion can be manipulated to control people, there is real potential for power hungry individuals to abuse trust.

The corrupting influence of power is always worth exploring in a fantasy setting. Tolkien was the master of this. Gandalf, a truly virtuous soul, knew that the power offered by the Precious could turn even himself into a force for evil.

 

[myrddin173]

It is important to remember the old addage "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

 

[Helbrecht]

Which is why it does not work. If people were capable of doing this then Communism would work... unfortunately people are imperfect and therefore we will never have a "perfect form of government".

I'm from about as far-left a background as you can get (my mum's a trade union representative) and I used to think this myself, but I've found that to argue that, essentially, "we're not good enough for communism" is ludicrous. Communism is a wonderful ideology in theory and theoretically offers a solution to most of society's problems, but it doesn't go much further than theory. If anything, I would instead contend that communism isn't good enough for us.

Anyway, we're digressing a little, aren't we? I suppose it was inevitable that any prolonged discussion of religion - something warned against in our rules, I believe - would eventually lead to a discussion of that other taboo topic, politics. Anyway, back on topic:

*deep breath*

I think both pure religious faith and pure secular reason are powerful motivating factors. But I also think history proves that one isn't really better than the other - instead, it's a matter of how motivated the person is and exactly who it is being motivated. People who help people and people who kill people for whatever reason, religious or secular, are probably just looking for a reason to do so anyway.

I do the odd shift at a local charity shop and the people there, working unpaid for the benefit of others, are roughly evenly split between religious types and secular humanists - not that it's easy to tell them apart. For all the religiously-motivated humanitarian groups, we still have organisations like Atheists Giving Aid performing a valuable service in disaster-stricken areas. But so many crusades and jihads have been waged throughout history that atrocities committed for entirely secular reasons - and by this I mean something that runs directly in opposition to religion, which seems to be what we're talking about - seem few and far between by comparison.

To be fair, atrocities motivated by a desire for secularism have only really occurred in the past 220 years or so, starting with during the French Revolution, but I think the damage done in secular atrocities is still easily on par with that of religious atrocities. However, this just brings me to my main point - whatever things are being done, while they may be portrayed as having an entirely religious/anti-religious cause, tend to be means towards an ultimately irreligious political end.

The failed Dechristianisation of France during the Revolution mainly wasn't people deciding that they just didn't like religion. Well, it kind of was, but nevermind that! The reason they didn't like the Church was because of the political influence it held over the people, and that was what they were trying to eliminate.. Likewise, the early Crusades were as much about offering assistance to the struggling Byzantine Empire and conquering territory for the powers of Europe as they were about reclaiming the Holy Land from the beastly infidel. Even modern religious extremists tend to be working towards secular ends, so far as I can see. I would wager that many modern Islamic fundamentalist militants care more immediately about fighting perceived Western dominance than they do about doing Allah's will.

I don't think religious people motivated to act by religious reasons are often doing it for the cause of religion. Obviously missionaries etc. would be exempt from this little notion of mine but I think it still applies widely. Aid workers for Christian charities aren't doing it to curry favour with the Big Man, they're doing it because they want to help people. Just like all the atheist humanitarians at the same disaster site do. Do their beliefs really come into the equation?

TL;DR I think religion and atheism are as good and as bad as each other in most of the same ways. Also they're used as reasons to do things more often than they actually are the reason. What a person commits in an ideology's name is indicative of the general moral character of the person, not that of the ideology.

Okay, that post turned out to be much longer than it was intended. If anyone wants to pick my argument apart, they're more than welcome to.

EDIT: Sorry for not addressing your points, Brian, Black Dragon and myrddin; I didn't see that you'd posted while I was writing this. Took me long enough as well. xD

 

[Fnord]

Just a plain ol' atheist.

 

[myrddin173]

If Stalin were a dedicated Orthodox Christian, for instance, I don't think he wouldn't have been a dictator.

I just found out this curious little fact. Turns out Stalin trained to be come a priest for five years before turning to Marxism.

Joseph Stalin trained to be a priest for five years. - OMG Facts - Your Mind. Blown.

 

[Fnord]

I don't think Communism/Marxism is even a good idea in theory.

Religious devotion to statist central planners ends up with the same effect.

 

[Joe the Gnarled]

You know... I was thinking about this thread last night and I just have to say something. I am so proud of all us (myself included) boys and girls. I have seen something like this get way (under exaggeration) out of hand on other open online forums. Bravo to Mythic Scribes!

Ok, continue discussion.

 

[sashamerideth]

You know... I was thinking about this thread last night and I just have to say something. I am so proud of all us (myself included) boys and girls. I have seen something like this get way (under exaggeration) out of hand on other open online forums. Bravo to Mythic Scribes!

Ok, continue discussion.

Why do I feel the urge to say something intolerant and highly inflammatory?

 

[Joe the Gnarled]

Why do I feel the urge to say something intolerant and highly inflammatory?

Don't do it Sasha!

 

[Dante Sawyer]

You know... I was thinking about this thread last night and I just have to say something. I am so proud of all us (myself included) boys and girls. I have seen something like this get way (under exaggeration) out of hand on other open online forums. Bravo to Mythic Scribes!

Ok, continue discussion.

I agree man. I'm very happy this thread that I posted didn't turn out to just be a bunch of people yelling at one another over various religous viewpoints.
Thanks to everyone here at Mythic!

 

[Jenna St. Hilaire]

It's been fun to read through this and see what you all think and believe. I'm Catholic.

I'd never before heard that most fantasy authors are atheists or agnostic, but that's fascinating if true, especially as I'd have guessed the opposite. Most of my acquaintance has been with the religious: Tolkien (Catholic), Lewis and Jordan (Anglican), Sanderson (LDS--as is SF author Orson Scott Card and YA fantasy author Shannon Hale), L'Engle (Anglican)... even Rowling attends the Church of Scotland. (Pardon me for repeating a few people here.) Who are some good atheist or agnostic authors?

Though I do consider myself very religious, I've wrestled a lot with agnostic questions, and have found reading and writing fantasy to be a great way to explore those ideas. It also helps me believe, though naturally that's not everyone's experience.

Ditto the props to everyone for not turning this into a flame war! I continue to be impressed by this community.

 

[Ophiucha]

@Jenna,

Let's see. Philip Pullman is basically the atheist C.S. Lewis. Poul Anderson (Three Hearts and Three Lions) is generally cited as agnostic. Arthur C. Clarke was an atheist. China Mieville is an atheist. George R.R. Martin generally calls himself an atheist. Terry Pratchett is, or was, an atheist. Not sure if he still is, but when he wrote most of his books he was, which is most relevant to the conversation. H.P. Lovecraft is generally regarded as an atheist, as well. And science fiction, our brother in arms, has more than it's fair share of atheist writers: Douglas Adams, Kurt Vonnegut, H.G. Wells, hell even Ayn Rand was an atheist.

 

[TWErvin2]

Below is a link to a pretty extensive list based on interviews and what authors have written/said about themselves with respect to their faith.

It does contradict Ophiucha's list in at least one place.

Science Fiction/Fantasy Authors of Various Faiths

 

[Ophiucha]

It does contradict Ophiucha's list in at least one place.

Science Fiction/Fantasy Authors of Various Faiths

Not really, all of the ones that it says otherwise on goes further into detail. Their page on Douglas Adams specifies that he was raised Anglican, but became an atheist. On H.P. Lovecraft, "As an adult writer he identified himself as an atheist." And on Ayn Rand, she's listed as an objectivist, which is by absolutely no stretch of the imagination a religion, but rather a political philosophy that is generally tied with atheism. On that note, I imagine Terry Goodkind is an atheist, both because he is an Objectivist and because his books seem a bit anti-religion.

 

[TWErvin2]

Not really, all of the ones that it says otherwise on goes further into detail. Their page on Douglas Adams specifies that he was raised Anglican, but became an atheist.

Works for me.

It appears the site was created in 1999 and hasn't been updated in the last 6 or so years. So especially if someone listed has openly turned away from faith, it may be inaccurate, just has if someone who was not listed changed their mind in favor of faith.

 

[Jenna St. Hilaire]

Thanks, TWErvin2 and Ophiucha! I should've remembered China Mieville; his Un Lun Dun was an excellent book and I'd certainly like to read some of his adult fiction eventually. Lovecraft is another one I should have thought of. And of course I've read both Pratchett and Adams without knowing what they believed. Vonnegut is on my shame-on-me-for-never-having-read-yet list.

The author/belief list was utterly fascinating. A lot of the names I'd simply never matched to a belief system (or unbelief system!) It always intrigues me to see how an author's outlook on life informs their fiction, whether or not I agree with the principles.

Thanks again!

On an unrelated topic, I'll try to stop putting smileys at the end of three-quarters of all my paragraphs....

 

[Argentum]

Oh dear. Well, this is a wonderful thread and I love the conversation and lack of arguments. But does this then makes me the first Christian on Mythic? I don't throw bibles around in people's faces. And while I'm very willing to try to explain what I think/believe and translate it from Christian-speak to english (if anyone is curious), I'm not about to push it on anyone.

I read in a few posts that it seemed the majority of writers tended to be atheists or agnostic. I think that certain types of people with religious beliefs, like Christians for example, won't be well known because their books tend to be openly religious and are sold on separate markets, Christian bookstores and things. But what I think is fascinating is when a person has a set of beliefs and they only add to the story and enrich it and don't slap you in the face, so a greater audience can enjoy it whether or not they share the same beliefs. C.S. Lewis for example had very strong beliefs, but it only seemed to make Narnia that much more so and a great audience could enjoy them. And Tolkien too, had great beliefs but they did not slap you in the face, they made his story powerful and he ended up with a great epic of Good vs. Evil. I love how the belief (whatever they may be) can enrich the story.

But there are stories with beliefs and preaching stuffed into page after page of monologue (*cough Anne Rice cough*) and I think that's one of the worst ways to let your beliefs influence your writing.

 

[sashamerideth]

Oh dear. Well, this is a wonderful thread and I love the conversation and lack of arguments. But does this then makes me the first Christian on Mythic? I don't throw bibles around in people's faces. And while I'm very willing to try to explain what I think/believe and translate it from Christian-speak to english (if anyone is curious), I'm not about to push it on anyone.

I read in a few posts that it seemed the majority of writers tended to be atheists or agnostic. I think that certain types of people with religious beliefs, like Christians for example, won't be well known because their books tend to be openly religious and are sold on separate markets, Christian bookstores and things. But what I think is fascinating is when a person has a set of beliefs and they only add to the story and enrich it and don't slap you in the face, so a greater audience can enjoy it whether or not they share the same beliefs. C.S. Lewis for example had very strong beliefs, but it only seemed to make Narnia that much more so and a great audience could enjoy them. And Tolkien too, had great beliefs but they did not slap you in the face, they made his story powerful and he ended up with a great epic of Good vs. Evil. I love how the belief (whatever they may be) can enrich the story.

But there are stories with beliefs and preaching stuffed into page after page of monologue (*cough Anne Rice cough*) and I think that's one of the worst ways to let your beliefs influence your writing.

I remember a Mormon on here, a couple Catholics, so I don't think you are the first Christian to chime in.

 

[Argentum]

Oh, I guess I meant someone of my particular beliefs, in some ways related to Mormons beliefs perhaps, and definitely related to Catholicism, but different as well.

 

[Chilari]

Wow am I ever late to the party. For the record, I'm atheist now but I wasn't always. My mum is Christian and goes to church every week, and my dad is agnostic but goes to church at Christmas and Easter. When I was younger I had a lot of Christian friends so I started to go to their church, a Baptist church, rather than the one mum goes to (multiplying my Sunday travel distance by ten to do so - mum's church is three houses away). I got baptised while there, when I was seventeen. But then I started having doubts. Sometimes I felt like a fraud. I tried asking God why I couldn't always feel his presence. I asked him to show me a sign, and I looked for a reply but never saw one. I read up about evolution and other things Baptists don't believe in.

By the time I started university when I was 19 (I took a year out to earn money), I was practically agnostic. Then what I learned in my first year at university pretty much put paid to any doubts. I studied ancient history and archaeology, so while in the ancient history lectures I was learning about Mithraism and other ancient religions and seeing for myself the similarities between what I had believed about Jesus and these religions which in many cases originated a century or more before Christianity; in archaeology I was learning about the origins of homo sapiens, the long evolution from proto-primates, the Neanderthals who died out millennia before Baptists said the world was even created. And all of that seemed to make so much more sense than what I'd read in the Bible.

So now I am an atheist. I don't believe in any gods, though if evangelists stop me in the street when I'm shopping I tell them I'm Discordian because then they go "oh, okay" half the time because they don't know what that is or what I (apparently) believe, whereas when I say I'm an atheist they begin their spiel about being saved or, in one case, tell me I'm going to burn in hell. I believe that, since this is all we've got, we've got to make the most of it. I believe that morality comes from biology - we as a species will not continue to propogate if we kill and alienate people, and this has been enshrined in society and subsequently adopted into religion and law. I believe religion began as a way for individuals to control large groups, and that in the modern world its place is similar, but different. Now, with democracy and a global economy, etc, religion is no longer needed in that context. Now it is used by individuals to organise their thoughts and justify their opinions on things. It can give people hope and direction, but it can also be used to make people believe certain ideas or ideals and justify wrongdoing. It can bring people together as a community, and forge strong bonds between people, or it can divide. I see religion not as a negative force or as a positive force, but as something which reflects the desires, hopes and opinions of those who subscribe to it and use it to achieve their goals. There are people who use it for evil, and there are people who use it for good.