What was hard to write?

[Jackarandajam]

Scenes where I think I haven't done the proper research are hard to write. It don't matter if I've done sufficient research or not. If its a subject I feel like I don't know enough I get hung up on details, if I've misunderstood something and so on and on.

No tall ships and no horses in my book so far.
Tall ships isn't so bad because I feel like readers are either more sympathetic or don't know any more about it than I do.
Horses though... seems like it's one of those subjects that people can immediately tell whether you have any actual experience or just looked it up on Wikipedia.
"Honey, I just took a job at a ranch in Montana, I'll see you in six months. It's for the book."

 

[pmmg]

I do my best with ships and horses, but the story is not really about them, so...just a close approximation.

I traded critiques with a woman once, whose whole story was full of reverence for horses, almost like they were life long friends of the people, and a lot of detail in how to handle, treat and ride them.

In my story, the MC at one point blurts out, "I will ride this horse to death if I have too.", and I was like....uhhhh...this not gonna go well

But she was another who did not keep her end of it. Cest le Vie.

 

[Incanus]

For me it's setting description. I have difficulties imagining places in vivid detail. In my head, rooms are a blur.

If the feedback I usually receive is to be believed, then apparently I'm fairly good at this.

But what I all-too-often end up with is: a poor story that's well-written (or at least has good description). It's the poor story stuff I'm trying to figure out these days.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

If the feedback I usually receive is to be believed, then apparently I'm fairly good at this.

But what I all-too-often end up with is: a poor story that's well-written (or at least has good description). It's the poor story stuff I'm trying to figure out these days.

When you say, 'poor story,' is that you talking or is that the impression your readers give you? The story thing can be fairly easily fixed. What's your conflict? How about that guy leaning against the tavern wall? That horse? Conflict = Story, and the more, and more complicated, your conflict, the more likely you are to get the reader singing, "What's this? What's this? There's conflict everywhere. What's this? What's this? Suddenly I care!" Positive or negative, tiny things or showstoppers, conflict is what drives your story forward and grabs the reader to drag them along behind.

 

[The Dark One]

I've always been complimented on how well I write women but I've never written a female 1st person POV.

The opportunity has just come up to do so and I'm already feeling very self conscious about it - after a page and a half.

 

[Finchbearer]

Haruki Murakami has long been criticised of his portrayal of women in his fiction, but the one POV he did in his book 1Q84 with his character Aomame, was done very well IMO. She’s one of the most memorable female characters I’ve read.

 

[Prince of Spires]

When you say, 'poor story,' is that you talking or is that the impression your readers give you? The story thing can be fairly easily fixed.

The deeper I get into writing, the more I think story is actually the hardest thing to master.

Yes, it all comes down to conflict, and conflict isn't that hard to do. In a scene character A wants one thing and character B wants the opposite. Instant conflict. However, placing that conflict in the grander scheme of a story and have it be logical and make sense and not be obvious is very hard.

Sentence level stuff, and chapter level stuff is a lot easier. Yes, these are the first and most obvious signs of a beginning writer. But if someone shares a piece of their writing, I can point at it and say "use fewer adverbs", "this section is in pasive voice", "use more senses" and all that sort of thing. It's relatively easy to spot, and thus to work on. Even just reading a good novel shows you how it's done.

A whole scene is a bit harder, but still relatively easy to fix. You can look at a scene, figure out why it isn't working and work on that. You need more conflict. or the stakes weren't obvious, or you rushed through some parts. A 1000-4000 word scene is still relatively easy to keep in your head and work on. Move one piece at the beginning, and you can see what impact it has on the end, and that sort of stuff.

Story on the other hand is far harder. Because it depends on those individual scenes, but also on those sentences, but also on the bigger picture. A perfectly fine scene with lovely sentences can be completely meaningless for a story as a whole. For a story to not only work, but to be memorable, all the moving parts have to work together. You need that scene in the beginning where you make a promisse to your reader about what story we're getting. You need to scatter all the clues, make sure the character growth is logical and not too fast or slow, the reader needs to follow the internal and external conflict, and so on.

 

[Jackarandajam]

The deeper I get into writing, the more I think story is actually the hardest thing to master.

Yes, it all comes down to conflict, and conflict isn't that hard to do. In a scene character A wants one thing and character B wants the opposite. Instant conflict. However, placing that conflict in the grander scheme of a story and have it be logical and make sense and not be obvious is very hard.

Sentence level stuff, and chapter level stuff is a lot easier. Yes, these are the first and most obvious signs of a beginning writer. But if someone shares a piece of their writing, I can point at it and say "use fewer adverbs", "this section is in pasive voice", "use more senses" and all that sort of thing. It's relatively easy to spot, and thus to work on. Even just reading a good novel shows you how it's done.

A whole scene is a bit harder, but still relatively easy to fix. You can look at a scene, figure out why it isn't working and work on that. You need more conflict. or the stakes weren't obvious, or you rushed through some parts. A 1000-4000 word scene is still relatively easy to keep in your head and work on. Move one piece at the beginning, and you can see what impact it has on the end, and that sort of stuff.

Story on the other hand is far harder. Because it depends on those individual scenes, but also on those sentences, but also on the bigger picture. A perfectly fine scene with lovely sentences can be completely meaningless for a story as a whole. For a story to not only work, but to be memorable, all the moving parts have to work together. You need that scene in the beginning where you make a promisse to your reader about what story we're getting. You need to scatter all the clues, make sure the character growth is logical and not too fast or slow, the reader needs to follow the internal and external conflict, and so on.

100%. Thats what drives me crazy about people who talk crap on the three act structure to new writers. If they're just discovery writing for the hell of it, sure, but if someone is lost in the woods it's better to give them a map written in crayon then a blindfold.

But what I all-too-often end up with is: a poor story that's well-written (or at least has good description). It's the poor story stuff I'm trying to figure out these days.

I hesitate to throw books at your head, but for what it's worth I've been reading The Anatomy of Story by John Truby. I'm just a few chapters into it, and while I'm not claiming to now be merrily pounding away at a masterpiece, it has been paradigm-shifting and I feel way better about my story than I used to.

 

[pmmg]

Well...I dont know that they are talking 'crap'.

I do think there is a type of hierarchy to story writing and ability. If a manuscript is full of errors and grammatical mistakes, those kind of need to be reined in before we can move on to higher level things like character and plot, and then even those before things like voice and theme.

Being a good writer is one skill set. Being a good reviewer is another. Not everyone has both. Some have neither. I do think it is important to take what my experience and 'learnin' has taught me and use it to best direct those I am reviewing. I don't often talk in terms of 3 act story structure, but I would if I felt it was what was most needed.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

The deeper I get into writing, the more I think story is actually the hardest thing to master.

Yes, it all comes down to conflict, and conflict isn't that hard to do. In a scene character A wants one thing and character B wants the opposite. Instant conflict. However, placing that conflict in the grander scheme of a story and have it be logical and make sense and not be obvious is very hard.

Sentence level stuff, and chapter level stuff is a lot easier. Yes, these are the first and most obvious signs of a beginning writer. But if someone shares a piece of their writing, I can point at it and say "use fewer adverbs", "this section is in pasive voice", "use more senses" and all that sort of thing. It's relatively easy to spot, and thus to work on. Even just reading a good novel shows you how it's done.

A whole scene is a bit harder, but still relatively easy to fix. You can look at a scene, figure out why it isn't working and work on that. You need more conflict. or the stakes weren't obvious, or you rushed through some parts. A 1000-4000 word scene is still relatively easy to keep in your head and work on. Move one piece at the beginning, and you can see what impact it has on the end, and that sort of stuff.

Story on the other hand is far harder. Because it depends on those individual scenes, but also on those sentences, but also on the bigger picture. A perfectly fine scene with lovely sentences can be completely meaningless for a story as a whole. For a story to not only work, but to be memorable, all the moving parts have to work together. You need that scene in the beginning where you make a promisse to your reader about what story we're getting. You need to scatter all the clues, make sure the character growth is logical and not too fast or slow, the reader needs to follow the internal and external conflict, and so on.

All this is absolutely true. I'll tell anyone that I'm not a fan of the wasted line, and I'm not, but it's not something I do intentionally. It's just foreshadowing gone wild, but I like to call it signposting, because you can signpost or you can put up a billboard, but either way you're going to want to wink at the reader here and there.

How does this work when I don't do it intentionally? I don't have the foggiest idea, but it's really cool when it happens and just by knowing this meme is out in the wild I know I'm not the only weirdo out there.

My advice: Just write. Don't worry about signposting for now. Tell your story and the first few times just tell it to you. You're going to find that as you cruise along ideas will start popping up like daisies in the snow. Gather them up. You'll need them, later. You're also going to notice that as your drafts get longer you'll have ideas for where bits of foreshadowing need to be slipped in... only to find it's already there, because the brain on writing chemicals is extremely cool.

And then one day it all comes together. And "it" is telling you that you're writing the wrong bloody book and you start back over.

 

[Incanus]

When you say, 'poor story,' is that you talking or is that the impression your readers give you? The story thing can be fairly easily fixed. What's your conflict? How about that guy leaning against the tavern wall? That horse? Conflict = Story, and the more, and more complicated, your conflict, the more likely you are to get the reader singing, "What's this? What's this? There's conflict everywhere. What's this? What's this? Suddenly I care!" Positive or negative, tiny things or showstoppers, conflict is what drives your story forward and grabs the reader to drag them along behind.

First of all, I love the Nightmare Before Christmas reference--one of my favorites!

Poor story--it's both me and some reactions, in some instances. I do have some 'good' short stories, and some less good.

My first novel is unfixable the way I see it. It would take too much space to spell out just why. But since my current project is more or less catching fire, I'm going with that. I work painfully slow, so there is that to consider as well. It'll likely take me a couple of years at least to have an early draft ready to show, and then more time after that to touch it all up.

It's not conflict that's troubling me so much. It's usually character things. My characters are all as rational as I am (go figure). I've had more than one reader say 'people don't think like that', which struck me as funny: you just read an account of a character thinking like that as described by a writer--which means someone somewhere does think like that.

I'm getting better at these things, a little. My characters have been showing a little individuality in my current WIP. I can't tell if it's working or not though--I'll have to wait a few years to find out.

 

[pmmg]

My characters have been showing a little individuality in my current WIP. I can't tell if it's working or not though--I'll have to wait a few years to find out.

Its working, I can tell

 

[Finchbearer]

For me it’s what is hard / difficult. And the answer is everything. I think my writing is slowly improving, and it does take actually writing for me to see and feel where I can improve. But at some point I want to say, ‘I’m ready to publish’. Whether that be self-publishing or traditional, having work out there does appeal to me.

 

[pmmg]

But at some point I want to say, ‘I’m ready to publish’. Whether that be self-publishing or traditional, having work out there does appeal to me.

This is a hard thing to know. I think it eventually comes to...screw it, I'm going to publish

But...even when you are happy with the manuscript, you have other stuff to do. Formatting, Cover, Front and Back matter, ISBN, copyright... Its not as quick as one might think.

 

[pmmg]

Upon some reflection, I think what is actually hardest for me is just shifting into writing brain. Its takes a working type of energy to create entirely new content, so I have to be in working brain (specially on a Friday, when I don't want too). The other stuff, like editing, is a different type of energy. Its easier to move in an out of.

Shifting energy, and finding the time/space to do it. A routine that allows for it makes it easier. (Probably why I don't like weekends).

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'm autistic, so I really need pattern and structure to my work day or else nothing gets done. It's the physical acts I move through, really not unlike Tai Chi, that start the first ripples of entering that trance. Yeah, I think I self-hypnotize. It's weird. lol So, moving around the kitchen making coffee, talking to my wife and plotter about the chapter I'll be drafting that day, and then the act of pulling my chair up to the desk and clicking play on my writing music for the day. The OST to Pacific Rim is a go-to for me, as are the dedicated playlists I make for each book. The music is part of the trance. It keeps me focused on the emotions being projected across my mind and drowns out the background noise both from the house and from my own head.

 

[Incanus]

Its working, I can tell

I'd like to think that's true, but I'm too riddled with doubt----

My old complaint went - 'my character's all stand around talking about the plot, and don't really show their personalities'

Now that they have been starting to show some personality, I'm questioning the technique that is allowing it to happen.

Sigh--I may have to just accept that I may be nearly impossible to please.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'd like to think that's true, but I'm too riddled with doubt----

My old complaint went - 'my character's all stand around talking about the plot, and don't really show their personalities'

Now that they have been starting to show some personality, I'm questioning the technique that is allowing it to happen.

Sigh--I may have to just accept that I may be nearly impossible to please.

I've had them turn around and look at me while giving me a little rare insight into why they just smacked the snot out of an angel. Our most reliable, competent, compassionate, brilliant, and talented in so many ways, our older FMC, one day looked up at me and said, "I know this complicates things, but I've been using stimulants, fairly dangerously, for some time. Sorry." Trauma surgeon.

They'll talk to you. They'll talk to you at 4am and they won't shut up. Good luck and you've got this!

 

[pmmg]

I'd like to think that's true, but I'm too riddled with doubt----

My old complaint went - 'my character's all stand around talking about the plot, and don't really show their personalities'

Now that they have been starting to show some personality, I'm questioning the technique that is allowing it to happen.

Sigh--I may have to just accept that I may be nearly impossible to please.

My rule for this is write it ugly and fix later.

 

[Incanus]

My rule for this is write it ugly and fix later.

It's not so much a rule as it is just plain reality. There is simply no way to create something complete, balanced, engaging, and well-written all in one go. Certainly not for secondary-world fantasy.

So ugly I can do. I've got piles of it.

But if I'm using a technique that will need to be fixed later, it would be nice to know now, before I use it another hundred times.

(Now I'm contemplating starting a thread about this technique, such as it is.)