What was hard to write?

[pmmg]

I'm gonna add a new rule. 4) Don't beat yourself up.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'm gonna add a new rule. 4) Don't beat yourself up.

 

[RawkusSpectre]

So...In our long writing careers, I am sure we have all had to address many difficulties along the way. I wonder what some of you would consider the things that you found the hardest to get right on paper. What was particularly hard about it? How did you handle it? And do you think it succeeded? If for whatever reason, you wanted to tackle it again today, could you improve it?

(Feel free to use a loose definition of hard.)

I still struggle with fluid engaging dialogue as a fledgling.

 

[Incanus]

I'm gonna add a new rule. 4) Don't beat yourself up.

I'm of two minds when it comes to a rule (guideline) such as this.

If you never beat yourself up over writing issues, it's likely you will not improve.

If all you ever do is beat yourself up, you will likely lose inspiration and enthusiasm.

I beat myself up as a way of being realistic and as a way of focusing on what needs to be improved. I think I have a healthy mix going.

 

[Jackarandajam]

I'm of two minds when it comes to a rule (guideline) such as this.

If you never beat yourself up over writing issues, it's likely you will not improve.

If all you ever do is beat yourself up, you will likely lose inspiration and enthusiasm.

I beat myself up as a way of being realistic and as a way of focusing on what needs to be improved. I think I have a healthy mix going.

Yeah, beating yourself up is only worthwhile if you stand to gain something from losing the fight.

 

[Incanus]

Yeah, beating yourself up is only worthwhile if you stand to gain something from losing the fight.

While this is certainly clever, it may be overextending the metaphor.

It's not an all-out fight to determine a winner/loser. It's a smack across the cheek as a reminder that you've not written something as good as it might be. It's a (rough) call to do better next time.

 

[Jackarandajam]

While this is certainly clever, it may be overextending the metaphor.

It's not an all-out fight to determine a winner/loser. It's a smack across the cheek as a reminder that you've not written something as good as it might be. It's a (rough) call to do better next time.

There are a lot of terms used to describe negative self-appraisal, "beating yourself up" usually describes a more prolonged, aggravated, in depth approach than a smack on the cheek.

I agree both are certainly useful for different reasons as long as the result is improvement and one is able to dismiss the episode in a timely and appropriate manner, with no lingering effects of self-deprication.

So I agree with you on both counts, I'm just not sure they mean the same thing.

 

[Incanus]

There are a lot of terms used to describe negative self-appraisal, "beating yourself up" usually describes a more prolonged, aggravated, in depth approach than a smack on the cheek.

I agree both are certainly useful for different reasons as long as the result is improvement and one is able to dismiss the episode in a timely and appropriate manner, with no lingering effects of self-deprication.

So I agree with you on both counts, I'm just not sure they mean the same thing.

Yes, that is a good distinction that I failed to acknowledge. I should beat myself up over it!

There are, or have been, issues I beat myself up over, but mostly I just try to figure out where I need to improve.

It's gotten bad at times though. A couple of years ago, I wasn't working on anything because I lacked confidence in my story ideas. But I'm flying high again--for now.

 

[skip.knox]

It's a curiosity that there is so much advice on offer for the first-time writer, yet almost none for the authors who are on their, say, third book. Does something magical happen at Book Two?

I rather think not, seeing as how I'm on my sixth book and I still flounder like .... well, a flounder. Flop flop gasp.

Where are the articles on How Finally To Make a Useful Outline? Or, Better Dialog for Those Who Already Do It OK. Or, Fifth Book But First Flashback.

It isn't that we more experienced writers have stopped listening. It's just that all the pundits have suddenly run out of wisdom. Hmm. Curious.

 

[Finchbearer]

I’d love to know about peoples experiences writing series. Fantasy specifically. Or SF, but more fantasy.

 

[pmmg]

Yeah...you can sift through my words and see if some other wisdom can be applied to it instead.

It's not so much a rule as it is just plain reality. There is simply no way to create something complete, balanced, engaging, and well-written all in one go. Certainly not for secondary-world fantasy.

So ugly I can do. I've got piles of it.

^ All of this is projecting beating oneself up. I cant, its impossible. All I can do is ugly....



We are our own worst judge of what is good and what is not. You've beat yourself up enough. That's why you need us. We'll do it for you, so you dont have to

Maybe there is much that can be improved, but that is it true for everyone. Look for bad, and you find bad. Look for good...


You are projecting not believing in yourself. I am betting your stuff is better than you think it is.

But if I'm using a technique that will need to be fixed later, it would be nice to know now, before I use it another hundred times.

What technique? What technique is going to change your voice, or that thing inside that says, this is good and this is not? I love yakking on the site, so I would love another system to grind through the gears, but is this really the problem?

 

[pmmg]

It's a curiosity that there is so much advice on offer for the first-time writer, yet almost none for the authors who are on their, say, third book. Does something magical happen at Book Two?

I rather think not, seeing as how I'm on my sixth book and I still flounder like .... well, a flounder. Flop flop gasp.

Where are the articles on How Finally To Make a Useful Outline? Or, Better Dialog for Those Who Already Do It OK. Or, Fifth Book But First Flashback.

It isn't that we more experienced writers have stopped listening. It's just that all the pundits have suddenly run out of wisdom. Hmm. Curious.

I think this has a lot to do with the amount of energy spent to learn what percent of our interest.


In writing the first, we are gaining the 80% knowledge base. But after that, we are chasing the remaining 20%, and so the energy spent is higher, the nuggets found are fewer.

So what happens at book 2, is either we discover its not for us, or the part we are still after is very hard to find.


I would suggest, that when I was a beginning writer, I was interested in the basics. Do the sentences flow? Does the story engage? Is my character right?

But I am past that now. Now I am interested in production and marketing. For a beginner writer, there is not much value in that.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Where are the articles on How Finally To Make a Useful Outline? Or, Better Dialog for Those Who Already Do It OK. Or, Fifth Book But First Flashback.

On this subject I think it's helpful to point out two very different types of "books on writing."
One is the "how to write a novel" type that is generally just made up of either very old truisms, is a "groundbreaking" opinion circus, or packed mostly with artfully vague motivational pep talk. All of this stuff can be helpful in its own way, but they tend to come off as a list of techniques that just have to be memorized. Writing isn't math.

Then there are some written by real, household name authors, that often start with the plea "if you can manage to not write, don't. It sucks. But if you can't help it, here's the best i've got."
These are where the most of the good stuff is.

 

[pmmg]

I’d love to know about peoples experiences writing series. Fantasy specifically. Or SF, but more fantasy.

Well...I always think in terms of series's (I sometimes feel it is a curse). Even my stand-alones make me think of ways they can be expanded.

For my current series, I had always known it would be a series. When it all started to jell, I could see it in five parts (with some place to stuff some of the expanded world in as well if I wanted). So, I can clearly see what each book will contain and how they should end, and I pretty much know it is five.

I thought at one point, it might be that each book would be one part of a five act story structure, but I found that not to be true. I no longer look to story structure to help put the parts together. I might say it is a long hero's journey, but it does not match up very well to that either, so I feel its a little like a unicorn.

In all the stages of my story, things are getting worse. Since its a tale following the MC, I'd say the stages are something like....nativity, questioning, falling, finding bottom, and overcoming. That seems like the beats.

I had/have many questions about how all this works, book to book to book, but the feedback so far has been good. And I believe. I think the tale is worth my time. I hope others will agree.

Some issues I have that vex me are discovering things as I go, and then thinking, oh....that should be in book 1.

Some examples of this include: Initially, I did not have a name for the sun and moon, and when I did, well....they would be the same in book 1. Later, I came to invent a metal, that would have appeared from the start. Currency has changed names a few times. The Big history...which I finally wrote out in a time line to cement, changed a bit. Another was a character trying to hold true to a promise they made, but I had not actually had that appear in book 1, so I went back and added it.

Once the tale is published, going back and correcting becomes harder. Here in book 4, I am revealing the backstory of one of the Book 1 characters. I did not know till this book that his father would be a character that mattered. So far, I think it can stand that he's not mentioned in book 1, but I may come to a place where it might be neat to include.

One of the great benefits of writing a series is you get to flesh out the people and the places, and live with them for a long time. I feel very comfortable with my characters. They seem almost alive in some pocket world of my brain. It is a lifelong place I get to visit and enjoy.

 

[Incanus]

Yeah...you can sift through my words and see if some other wisdom can be applied to it instead.




^ All of this is projecting beating oneself up. I cant, its impossible. All I can do is ugly....



We are our own worst judge of what is good and what is not. You've beat yourself up enough. That's why you need us. We'll do it for you, so you dont have to

Maybe there is much that can be improved, but that is it true for everyone. Look for bad, and you find bad. Look for good...


You are projecting not believing in yourself. I am betting your stuff is better than you think it is.




What technique? What technique is going to change your voice, or that thing inside that says, this is good and this is not? I love yakking on the site, so I would love another system to grind through the gears, but is this really the problem?

So I’m either expressing more negativity than I intend, or it’s being misread (or a little of both).

I’m extremely pleased with how my WIP is going these days. It keeps surprising me in pleasant ways. Instead of disintegrating and collapsing under its own weight as so many of my failed novels did, this one is catching fire, and is getting better all the time.

My reference to having piles of ugly is realistic. I have about 8-10 failed starts of novels, all in early draft form. That’s ugly stuff. My current approach is making a deliberately incomplete zero or half draft. It is unreadable in this form, therefore: ugly. Perhaps some writers are generating really glowing first drafts—I’m not one of them.

That’s an important distinction: the project is in great shape, the current draft of that project is clunky, incomplete, and does not represent the story I ultimately mean to tell. The issues it has are all fixable, unlike my old projects.

Also, for what it’s worth, I’m more or less shooting for the moon here. I’m not writing a short low drama with two people arguing in an apartment (nothing wrong with that), but a sprawling original epic fantasy with lots of moving parts and logistical issues that even most fantasy novels haven’t tackled before (to my knowledge). It’s taken me decades to reach this point, and I’m quite happy to have a project that seems to be working at long last.

(The technique I mentioned: I may have to pass on that for now. I’m not sure it makes sense to start a thread about it. I’ll figure it out… eventually.)

 

[Prince of Spires]

It's a curiosity that there is so much advice on offer for the first-time writer, yet almost none for the authors who are on their, say, third book. Does something magical happen at Book Two?

I would say that yes, something magical does happen at book 2, which make generic advice harder to give. The magic is that at this point, you have finished 2 books. It's easy to forget in a world where prolific writers publish a book a month or more, but getting 2 full novels written is pretty magical. Most people never make it past the "I would like to write a book one day" stage.

When you've finished 2 or more books, you should have at least a rough idea of how you managed to do so. Even if that idea is "I kept throwing words at the wall to see which stuck." You will have some basic process that works for you, even if you don't recognize it fully. And that makes it harder to help you.

Every writer is different. When someone is just starting out, the advice is almost always the same. Butt in chair, hands on keyboard. Try to discovery write it if you don't want to outline. If you get stuck outline a bit and see if that helps you. Or, if you want to try outlining, create a basic outline, and see how far that gets you. I've written variations of this multiple times here on the site.

When you already have a process, then we need to actually dig into your process and start refining that. How can we make what has worked for you in the past work better? That means we need to dig deeper into your way of working and we deviate from the generic advice. And that is much harder to do, because every writer is different.

Same with line level advice. Your dialogue may not be the issue, but it's your scene descriptions that need work. Or all your characters sound the same, but your prose is lovely. Or any of the hundred other issues that could come up. We now need to find a way to improve those specifics without completely changing your Voice (which would be developing after 2 books). Again, that requires a lot more specific advice than just "show don't tell", "kill adverbs", and "don't write in passive voice".

I’d love to know about peoples experiences writing series. Fantasy specifically. Or SF, but more fantasy.

I've written an unplanned trilogy. When I finished the first novel, I found that there was more to tell. The journey wasn't over yet. So I wrote that. I think it shows in the sense that while there is more story to tell, there aren't any clear hooks that draw a reader into the next story. I'm currently working on a new series, and that's more planned. I have a rough idea of where I want the series to go, and which characters I need for that. So I can drop in some hints about later events.

I think with series as with individual books, there are 2 approaches. You can either plan out the whole story arc, or you can make it up as you go along (or something in the middle). Other than that, I think the important thing is that especially for the first book, you want both a complete story, where the main plot is wrapped up, and a clear path forward, where the reader will want to know how the tale continues.

 

[skip.knox]

Prince of Spires, I agree. Combined with earlier comments on this thread, I'd say that most *useful* writerly advice concerns basic work habits, the fundamentals of grammar and composition (neither of which is much taught in school these days, at any level), and some pointers to basic resources. There are so much advice in part because advice-givers are legion, and in part because advice can be re-phrased and re-packaged almost endlessly. In this, writing advice is much akin to advice on time management or dieting or organizing your junk drawer.

But I do think there's room for later advice, even though it becomes less universal. How to write a series--and different kinds of series. How to switch genres. Dealing with burnout. Retcon tactics. Managing your research (the junk drawer, redux).

 

[Ban]

The scenes I have struggled with most were not the most difficult, but the earliest. I started writing in English when I was fifteen, after being inspired by a location in Skyrim. At the time, I wanted to write a story about a group of bandits occupying a bridge fortress, which fans of the game should recognize as Valtheim towers. Coming up with the idea was the easy part, with the words themselves forming the struggle. While my grasp of the English language was technically sufficient, I struggled to convey my vision in a manner that read well. Nevertheless, I preferred the feel of English and persevered. Of course the difficulty was compounded by the general troubles that come with being a novice writer, namely lacking the requisite experience of having written extensively before. That bandit story grew into an expansive world which eventually became too large and unwieldy for my past self to contain. Thus, many worlds and many stories were written in its stead and the bandit bridge tale never saw the page in a completed form.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Prince of Spires, I agree. Combined with earlier comments on this thread, I'd say that most *useful* writerly advice concerns basic work habits, the fundamentals of grammar and composition (neither of which is much taught in school these days, at any level), and some pointers to basic resources. There are so much advice in part because advice-givers are legion, and in part because advice can be re-phrased and re-packaged almost endlessly. In this, writing advice is much akin to advice on time management or dieting or organizing your junk drawer.

But I do think there's room for later advice, even though it becomes less universal. How to write a series--and different kinds of series. How to switch genres. Dealing with burnout. Retcon tactics. Managing your research (the junk drawer, redux).

There really isn't much out there for those of us drowning in words. I've encountered a couple, like this one. The author makes a great case for a story structure to rival, and even compliment, the Hero's Journey. https://www.amazon.com/Heroines-Journey-Writers-Readers-Culture-ebook/dp/B08D5ZSNRB/ And of course we have Campbell, because even 20 years away from the Ivory Tower I can't escape. It's in e-book, finally! https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Faces-Collected-Joseph-Campbell-ebook/dp/B08MWW2VDL/

Also we have straight-up resource books tailor-made for a writer's needs. This is my go-to before I get any party started. Brilliant resource. https://www.amazon.com/Violence-Writers-Second-Rory-Miller-ebook/dp/B00CWGH46I/ Also, this. https://www.amazon.com/Writers-Guide-Weapons-Practical-Reference/dp/1599638150/ Getting a wee bit long in the tooth, but still good and enough to launch a more targeted search for things I didn't have the vocabulary to search for alone.

And once we get through the blizzard of books discussing structure and character and craft, it's still just us and the words. And I will read and read, especially the stuff that covers the basics, because it helps me to be reminded of the fundamentals even while I'm churning out sentences long enough to make the reader pass out. But that's just me. But organizing my desk, my papers, my reference books for the day... yeah, there's no help for me. Save yourselves!

 

[Mad Swede]

It's a curiosity that there is so much advice on offer for the first-time writer, yet almost none for the authors who are on their, say, third book. Does something magical happen at Book Two?

I rather think not, seeing as how I'm on my sixth book and I still flounder like .... well, a flounder. Flop flop gasp.

Where are the articles on How Finally To Make a Useful Outline? Or, Better Dialog for Those Who Already Do It OK. Or, Fifth Book But First Flashback.

It isn't that we more experienced writers have stopped listening. It's just that all the pundits have suddenly run out of wisdom. Hmm. Curious.

I wonder if you're not overthinking this. Maybe that is simply the way you write. There is this image of writers as people who sit down and write, inspired by whatever muse they have, driven to finish the latest story as midnight approaches. As though what we do is easy, and just comes to us. But reality isn't like that. Those of us with publishing contracts know all about deadlines, we know the need to write no matter how we're feeling to meet those deadlines and the fact that what goes out of the door to meet that deadline just has to be good enough and not perfect. Maybe that's what they're not telling us?