DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
So, I guess you would say teens are a group different from both adults and children.
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Why YA?
- Thread starter Laurence
- Start date
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
Probably. Just saying, just as there is a huge market for teens with bad taste, there is a huge market for adults with bad taste. Any given book for the adult market is not going to be better inherently.
Quality is relative, too. A book is only as good as it works well for the audience.
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DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
As for YA being easier to write...I should clarify some things. The writing style is simpler (generally), but that doesn't mean writers are enabled to write lower quality material (I know there's a better way to put it, I just can't think of it right now).
Also, it should be mentioned that the classic works you mentioned don't represent adult fiction at all. Esteemed literary masterpieces are in a whole other category than mainstream pulp and don't represent the adult market.
The main reason I don't consider YA easier to write is because the market has its own challenges. The YA market plays by different rules than the adult market. What works in one won't work in the other. Many adult authors have no idea whatsoever what it's like to be a teenager (even though they were one once, presumably.) Or, if they do remember, they're not able to channel it enough to crystallize and experience very different from their own. Children's books are even harder--lots of people don't even remember their childhood. Many people try to write YA with no idea of how actual teenagers think, talk and act. (No one actually says "OMG" or "LOL" in a conversation. Seriously.) Trying to write for a group of people you aren't a part of is going to be hard, and requires a little stepping outside of yourself.
YA is not just "adult books but cleaned up and dumbed down." It is a whole other creature.
Also, it should be mentioned that the classic works you mentioned don't represent adult fiction at all. Esteemed literary masterpieces are in a whole other category than mainstream pulp and don't represent the adult market.
The main reason I don't consider YA easier to write is because the market has its own challenges. The YA market plays by different rules than the adult market. What works in one won't work in the other. Many adult authors have no idea whatsoever what it's like to be a teenager (even though they were one once, presumably.) Or, if they do remember, they're not able to channel it enough to crystallize and experience very different from their own. Children's books are even harder--lots of people don't even remember their childhood. Many people try to write YA with no idea of how actual teenagers think, talk and act. (No one actually says "OMG" or "LOL" in a conversation. Seriously.) Trying to write for a group of people you aren't a part of is going to be hard, and requires a little stepping outside of yourself.
YA is not just "adult books but cleaned up and dumbed down." It is a whole other creature.
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
Grittier YA books? I'll work on a list.
@Laurence, and I guess everyone else as well, I distinguish between two kinds of YA writers.
One decides to write a YA story from the get-go. This is the type who is looking to find a healthy market and make some dough. Or, to be a little kinder, the writer who decides to write YA as a kind of writing exercise, just to explore a new genre. Or, indeed, who writes one because s/he has a child or nephew or other young person for whom they wish to write something special.
The other kind decides first to write a story. It has the elements it has. Then, either that person's agent (lucky devil) or the person themselves, must decide how to market this completed story. And concludes that it belongs on the YA shelf at the bookstore, or gets YA tags at Amazon.
None of those authorial decisions are inherently reprehensible. There are no bad genres, only bad writing.
If you have written a story and now you wish to market it, and you honestly don't know how, start researching. There is a *ton* of material out there. Specifically, there are lots of forums dedicated to YA where you can submit a first chapter or two. Those folks will let you know if you're in their ballpark or not. Given the two genres of fantasy and YA, I'd say that YA is the more significant, so that's the box you'll need to check first. And remember, just because you market primarily to a YA audience does not mean, as people here have pointed out, you are cutting out other markets or that you need to.
Finally, a word of remembrance. Although it used to be called juvenile fiction, the category has a long and illustrious history. I didn't read Heinlein's juvenile stuff till I was a grownup (Podkayne of Mars, Have Space Suit Will Travel, Door into Summer, etc). I still enjoyed it. This goes all the way back to Robert Louis Stevenson, at least. And if you want to read a remarkably dark piece of juvenile fiction, try A Wind in Jamaica. No dystopian stereotypes there!
One decides to write a YA story from the get-go. This is the type who is looking to find a healthy market and make some dough. Or, to be a little kinder, the writer who decides to write YA as a kind of writing exercise, just to explore a new genre. Or, indeed, who writes one because s/he has a child or nephew or other young person for whom they wish to write something special.
The other kind decides first to write a story. It has the elements it has. Then, either that person's agent (lucky devil) or the person themselves, must decide how to market this completed story. And concludes that it belongs on the YA shelf at the bookstore, or gets YA tags at Amazon.
None of those authorial decisions are inherently reprehensible. There are no bad genres, only bad writing.
If you have written a story and now you wish to market it, and you honestly don't know how, start researching. There is a *ton* of material out there. Specifically, there are lots of forums dedicated to YA where you can submit a first chapter or two. Those folks will let you know if you're in their ballpark or not. Given the two genres of fantasy and YA, I'd say that YA is the more significant, so that's the box you'll need to check first. And remember, just because you market primarily to a YA audience does not mean, as people here have pointed out, you are cutting out other markets or that you need to.
Finally, a word of remembrance. Although it used to be called juvenile fiction, the category has a long and illustrious history. I didn't read Heinlein's juvenile stuff till I was a grownup (Podkayne of Mars, Have Space Suit Will Travel, Door into Summer, etc). I still enjoyed it. This goes all the way back to Robert Louis Stevenson, at least. And if you want to read a remarkably dark piece of juvenile fiction, try A Wind in Jamaica. No dystopian stereotypes there!
Miskatonic
Auror
Like I said in another post, just because the book has violence, sex, cursing, etc., doesn't mean it's "adult". That's more of the ratings board's interpretation for marketing purposes.
Themes in YA tend to be more often black & white or dumbed down so that the target audience can understand them. This doesn't mean the writing is bad but the level of sophistication where the content is concerned can suffer because of this handicap. It also doesn't mean all teens can't understand more complicated subjects, but they probably also read books that are focused on an older age group because they've possibly outgrown the more straightforward stuff.
Also, if the books chosen for movie adaptations are any indicator, they are looking for the most bare bones stories that can easily be consumed by the target audience. Plenty of action, predictable romantic interactions, very basic interpretations of right and wrong, good and evil, etc.
I have quite a few teenage characters in one of my stories but I'm not incorporating the idealized "coming of age" approach that you'd find in YA.
Themes in YA tend to be more often black & white or dumbed down so that the target audience can understand them. This doesn't mean the writing is bad but the level of sophistication where the content is concerned can suffer because of this handicap. It also doesn't mean all teens can't understand more complicated subjects, but they probably also read books that are focused on an older age group because they've possibly outgrown the more straightforward stuff.
Also, if the books chosen for movie adaptations are any indicator, they are looking for the most bare bones stories that can easily be consumed by the target audience. Plenty of action, predictable romantic interactions, very basic interpretations of right and wrong, good and evil, etc.
I have quite a few teenage characters in one of my stories but I'm not incorporating the idealized "coming of age" approach that you'd find in YA.
KC Trae Becker
Troubadour
Some of us just prefer to write for people with most of their life ahead of them, instead of for people who are usually stuck in a rut.
Yeah, I also find this thread sort of offensive, in a strange way...
I'm having trouble understanding all the hate for YA?
I'm writing Middle Grades (which must make me the lowest of the low as far as intelligence, grittiness), and I'm not writing it because it is "easier" or "I wanted to try a new genre" or "I have a nephew that I'm trying to write something special for".
I'm writing middle grades because I'm absolutely inspired by the imaginations, wonder, and excitement of kids ages 9-13. Yes, I teach middle school, so I see it every day, and yes, I take my kids to the library where it is a treasure trove of fantastic, gritty, dark, mind boggling deeply themed kids fantasy.
People mostly know Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but there are so many more fun, inspiring and wonderful books out there, like Narnia (obviously), The Hobbit is considered Middle Grades, Coraline, The Artemis Fowl books, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, A Wrinkle in Time, The Giver.
For many young kids these will be their first introduction into fantasy, and there is something so special about these books that just can't be found in adult fantasy. A certain whimsy, a certain truth that just can't be found in adult fantasy.
I feel like with kids and young teens everything is still possible. It could still be 'real' in some way that the Pevency children can go to Narnia, or Charlie can go to a magical chocolate factory, or Meg could go on an adventure to space to save her father. For kids this stuff can really exist and the stories are written in a special sort of way that is just not found in adult fantasy.
I prefer it, personally. That is why I write it. I love knowing I'm sparking a kid's imagination. That is the reward for me.
I'm having trouble understanding all the hate for YA?
I'm writing Middle Grades (which must make me the lowest of the low as far as intelligence, grittiness), and I'm not writing it because it is "easier" or "I wanted to try a new genre" or "I have a nephew that I'm trying to write something special for".
I'm writing middle grades because I'm absolutely inspired by the imaginations, wonder, and excitement of kids ages 9-13. Yes, I teach middle school, so I see it every day, and yes, I take my kids to the library where it is a treasure trove of fantastic, gritty, dark, mind boggling deeply themed kids fantasy.
People mostly know Harry Potter and Percy Jackson, but there are so many more fun, inspiring and wonderful books out there, like Narnia (obviously), The Hobbit is considered Middle Grades, Coraline, The Artemis Fowl books, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, A Wrinkle in Time, The Giver.
For many young kids these will be their first introduction into fantasy, and there is something so special about these books that just can't be found in adult fantasy. A certain whimsy, a certain truth that just can't be found in adult fantasy.
I feel like with kids and young teens everything is still possible. It could still be 'real' in some way that the Pevency children can go to Narnia, or Charlie can go to a magical chocolate factory, or Meg could go on an adventure to space to save her father. For kids this stuff can really exist and the stories are written in a special sort of way that is just not found in adult fantasy.
I prefer it, personally. That is why I write it. I love knowing I'm sparking a kid's imagination. That is the reward for me.
And I don't like the assumption that YA is a 'dumbed down' version of adult fantasy. Where did that assumption come from?
Read The Book Theif, a story of a young illiterate german girl during the Holocaust who has taken to stealing books from burn piles in the city.
Or The Bar Code Tattoo, a story of a future where everyone's medical history and personal information is all in a tattoo on their wrist, and a girl who's father kills himself because he can't get a job because he "might be at risk for cancer."
Or The Giver, a story of a boy who is chosen to protect the memories of the past, and who must rescue a baby from being incinerated because it doesn't fit into his rigid society.
Or To Kill a Mockingbird (which, Yep, is categorized as YA). Which has some of the most beautiful themes on racism?
Or Roll of Thunder, Hear my Cry, which won the Newberry Medal, about a black family during the depression struggling with racism.
Or Monster, a book about an African American teenager on trial for felony murder in New York.
Read The Book Theif, a story of a young illiterate german girl during the Holocaust who has taken to stealing books from burn piles in the city.
Or The Bar Code Tattoo, a story of a future where everyone's medical history and personal information is all in a tattoo on their wrist, and a girl who's father kills himself because he can't get a job because he "might be at risk for cancer."
Or The Giver, a story of a boy who is chosen to protect the memories of the past, and who must rescue a baby from being incinerated because it doesn't fit into his rigid society.
Or To Kill a Mockingbird (which, Yep, is categorized as YA). Which has some of the most beautiful themes on racism?
Or Roll of Thunder, Hear my Cry, which won the Newberry Medal, about a black family during the depression struggling with racism.
Or Monster, a book about an African American teenager on trial for felony murder in New York.
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
THIS.
When you're a kid, the way things are isn't grounded in your mind yet. Much of the world is still unknown to you. Anything could be out there, somewhere. Anything could be real.
YA and Middle Grade books make the reader believe in magic in ways that more "mature" stories...can't.
I don't like the attitude that stories written for a younger audience are inherently inferior. Or, that no one would want to write for a younger audience just for the sake of writing a story.
And...think about this. When you write a book for a kid or teenager, think about how much you could do for their life. Their identities aren't fully formed yet. Your book could help influence who they become. It could help them love reading.
Regardless of how you personally feel about Harry Potter, think about all the kids who never would have picked up another book without it. Think of all the writers that were inspired by it in their childhood.
The world would be a lot different.
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
MG books can be very dark and creepy, too. Some of Brandon Mull's books, which are rather dark in places, are some of my favorite books and they're technically MG.
Russ
Istar
I must have missed it. Do you mean in this thread?
Sorry, Russ, not everyone... there has been a TON of support on this thread in general, but I do sort of get this sense of "YA is a dumbed down version of adult fantasy, with shallow themes, simplistic writing style and no one would actually want to write it unless they were forced to or needed some quick cash."
lol. That's just the tone I'm getting here.
I do challenge anyone to try it. It is not easier, I can tell you that. It is really freaking hard actually (as my crit partners can tell you). Trying to achieve something that kids will find amusing/funny/entertaining is really hard. I find writing for adults to actually be much easier because, well, I am an adult. I know what adults like. I know what adults can handle. I can write like an adult, using adult examples and adult jokes and adult dialogue and adult descriptions. I don't have to think "Oh, will my reader get this?" because I know that most adults will understand any references I make.
Writing for kids is a totally different ball game. I have to know kid culture. I have to know what they like, how they relate to their world, what they find important enough to notice and it is very different then adults. Draft after draft I have kids read my stuff and "it's too serious Mrs. B," "Make it funnier," "What if the Captain was a horse Mrs. B, that would be awesome!" (Seriously, the Captain of the ship should be a horse?
"Yes Mrs. B! A Pineapple eating horse!"... They all start laughing hysterically and rolling around in their desks...)
Kids are strange. Writing for kids is freaking hard.
lol. That's just the tone I'm getting here.
I do challenge anyone to try it. It is not easier, I can tell you that. It is really freaking hard actually (as my crit partners can tell you). Trying to achieve something that kids will find amusing/funny/entertaining is really hard. I find writing for adults to actually be much easier because, well, I am an adult. I know what adults like. I know what adults can handle. I can write like an adult, using adult examples and adult jokes and adult dialogue and adult descriptions. I don't have to think "Oh, will my reader get this?" because I know that most adults will understand any references I make.
Writing for kids is a totally different ball game. I have to know kid culture. I have to know what they like, how they relate to their world, what they find important enough to notice and it is very different then adults. Draft after draft I have kids read my stuff and "it's too serious Mrs. B," "Make it funnier," "What if the Captain was a horse Mrs. B, that would be awesome!" (Seriously, the Captain of the ship should be a horse?
"Yes Mrs. B! A Pineapple eating horse!"... They all start laughing hysterically and rolling around in their desks...)
Kids are strange. Writing for kids is freaking hard.
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DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
I second that. And since
1. I read (and enjoy) YA
2. I write YA
3. I AM a YA
i don't like it.
Ireth
Myth Weaver
Thirded. I read and write YA, though I'm an adult myself. I'd hate for someone to read my book and call its themes "shallow", since it deals with the importance of supporting/being supported by friends and family, and letting go of grudges and bigotry against people who are different from you.
Russ
Istar
Gotcha.
Personally I don't look down on YA at all. I have three good friends who write YA for a living, and two of them are making what I think is crazy good money at it. All three of them are very intelligent people and I think excellent writers (although I might be biased), and one of them is amongst the most bad ass military guys I have ever had the pleasure to hang with. Unfortunately none of them directly write fantasy (as I think of fantasy) so their work may not be representative of YA fantasy.
It certainly is different from adult genre or commercial fiction though. The MC's in my current WIP are in the 15-22 year old range but I would not call the work YA, because in the time the book is set those ages are full adults.
I think YA is a very modern phenomena, and a very healthy one.
Personally I don't look down on YA at all. I have three good friends who write YA for a living, and two of them are making what I think is crazy good money at it. All three of them are very intelligent people and I think excellent writers (although I might be biased), and one of them is amongst the most bad ass military guys I have ever had the pleasure to hang with. Unfortunately none of them directly write fantasy (as I think of fantasy) so their work may not be representative of YA fantasy.
It certainly is different from adult genre or commercial fiction though. The MC's in my current WIP are in the 15-22 year old range but I would not call the work YA, because in the time the book is set those ages are full adults.
I think YA is a very modern phenomena, and a very healthy one.
C
Chessie
Guest
I'm somewhat late to this discussion, which is a shame because it's pretty interesting. To be fair, I'm not a YA fan either. That's for two reasons:
1) YA is typically narrated in first person POV and we all know how I feel about that.
2) I prefer my fantasy with strong adult themes and a bit of sexy time thrown in there (not erotica levels though).
However, I totally disagree that YA is dumbed down because I've found it to be creative with deeply rich themes. Teenagers make for interesting characters and they don't usually have the tainted view of life that us adults do, with plenty of emotional wounds that make us lazy and afraid of taking the hero's journey.
Literature written for all ages is art in its own right. Currently, my son is reading the cat Warrior series and I've been reading along with him. I'd be lying if I said they weren't highly entertaining. I love reading with him and sharing in that childlike fantasy.
One last point, my understanding is that most YA readers are actually adults. That should say something. Readers are smart and they vote with their pocketbooks. Writing for teens doesn't make you better/less than any other author out there. Writing a book is hard for all of us regardless of audience age. Every genre (and subgenre) comes with its own set of challenges so in the end, we're all in the same overcrowded boat up a creek without paddles.
1) YA is typically narrated in first person POV and we all know how I feel about that.
2) I prefer my fantasy with strong adult themes and a bit of sexy time thrown in there (not erotica levels though).
However, I totally disagree that YA is dumbed down because I've found it to be creative with deeply rich themes. Teenagers make for interesting characters and they don't usually have the tainted view of life that us adults do, with plenty of emotional wounds that make us lazy and afraid of taking the hero's journey.
Literature written for all ages is art in its own right. Currently, my son is reading the cat Warrior series and I've been reading along with him. I'd be lying if I said they weren't highly entertaining. I love reading with him and sharing in that childlike fantasy.
One last point, my understanding is that most YA readers are actually adults. That should say something. Readers are smart and they vote with their pocketbooks. Writing for teens doesn't make you better/less than any other author out there. Writing a book is hard for all of us regardless of audience age. Every genre (and subgenre) comes with its own set of challenges so in the end, we're all in the same overcrowded boat up a creek without paddles.
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
I'm not that great at relating to others in my age group either. I feel like my complicated nerdy writer side is something most of my friends merely tolerate instead of embracing as a fundamental part of *me.*
Then again, I do hate a lot of YA out there. (Probably because a lot of it is bad, Sturgeon's Law, remember? And I can't stand a bad book.) But I don't hate all of it. Just...a lot of it.
I actually don't read that much YA. But many of my favorite books are YA (The Harry Potter series, the Giver).
I don't hate all of any particular genre of grouping of books. Except textbooks. (Last year I had to take a chemistry class and I found myself crying in frustration at how badly written the textbook was. I cry a lot.) Christian books come close. I love everything C.S Lewis and G. K. Chesterton breathe on, but all other Christian fiction can be thrown out into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all I care. Being a Christian, you would expect me to feel otherwise, but I have no patience for Christian fiction...I would explain with a long-winded rant, but that's a whole other topic.
What was I talking about?
DragonOfTheAerie
Vala
I love first person. That is, I love writing it. I like the intimacy, and my characters/narrators are snarky and sarcastic, so it can be pretty fun as well. I don't have any preference when reading.
Just in the interest of making conversation, can you explain why you don't like first person? I've heard that sentiment expressed on here many times and I'm wondering why. In a good story I don't even notice the narration.
C
Chessie
Guest
It is about intimacy, isn't it? In that case, the best way I can explain it is that 1st POV feels like a person I just met getting in much too close during a conversation. Like my space is being invaded. I like being able to see the story for what it is, get immersed in it, and first person totally breaks that connection between me and story. I've turned down many a good plot line or interesting story because of it. Won't even go past the first page.
The reason I dig 3rd POV is because it allows you inside many people's heads and allows you to make your own assumptions about things. IRL, I like to get to know people slowly. So maybe it's all related for me.
