Why YA?

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Oh you'll be different. When you're 22 you'll look back at your 17 yo self and think "what an idiot"

lol, i look back on myself a week ago and think that!

What i meant was, i don't really buy into the idea that you're a teenager for a while, and then at 18 you're suddenly an adult. that there's an 'adolescent mental state' and then you switch to an 'adult mental state' when you turn 18. i'd think a 22 year old would be able to relate to some of the same things a 17 year old would.

that, and 22 doesn't give me a 'mature adult' vibe, more like a 'bigger teenager', lol. college students seem to me like older adolescents.

i'm a totally different person than i was 4 years ago, but i'm more or less in the same stage of life.

i suppose i'm not the authority on this, never having been an adult (that i can remember. )

 

[FifthView]

FV, I'm unsure if we need to debate the merit of providing a variety of texts, with a variety of characters in a variety of situations at a variety of reading levels to people of all ages?

First I gain the impression that YA is significant because it provides young main characters and readers of approximately the same age will be able to identify with those characters. I wonder if this is meant to imply that YA readers will be unable to identify with, and enjoy, characters much older than they are.

But no, YA is not about the age of the main characters; it's about writing for YA readers, I'm told.

But if the age of the characters doesn't really matter and YA readers can enjoy novels written for adults, then why worry about targeting them by writing something particular called "YA?" Your writing could be for adults but simultaneously be for YA readers.

But I think that what is referred to as YA might actually be defined more by theme and–style?–than by who are the targets. It's not writing for young adults, but for people who enjoy X, Y, Z. What X, Y, Z signify is the question. But maybe I'm straying because the title of the thread was "Why YA?" and not "What's YA?"

 

[FifthView]

lol, i look back on myself a week ago and think that!

What i meant was, i don't really buy into the idea that you're a teenager for a while, and then at 18 you're suddenly an adult. that there's an 'adolescent mental state' and then you switch to an 'adult mental state' when you turn 18. i'd think a 22 year old would be able to relate to some of the same things a 17 year old would.

that, and 22 doesn't give me a 'mature adult' vibe, more like a 'bigger teenager', lol. college students seem to me like older adolescents.

i'm a totally different person than i was 4 years ago, but i'm more or less in the same stage of life.

i suppose i'm not the authority on this, never having been an adult (that i can remember. )

I'm 45, and seriously, I think of anyone in their 20s as being kids.

And I have parents who seem like kids to me. But I don't have the time or the courage to try and explain this.

 

[FifthView]

I hope my last comment didn't offend. I think this perception of age is fluid, and I remembered the shock when I first realized that I had more difficulty recognizing ages between older teens and 20-somethings, in strangers. The first feeling of really growing old myself, seeing people in my community or stars on television who are in their twenties but who seem like kids to me.

All of this might be a little off-topic, or not. I do believe the whole "writing for YA" idea brings with it a certain implication of dumbing-down or facile pandering, or at least might imply this if taken too literally and casually. I'm always remembering this bit from Dune, a book I read multiple times as a teen that happens to feature a YA protagonist but also many adults and perhaps isn't "YA" by today's standards?

It was like an ultimate simpatico, being two people at once: not telepathy,
but mutual awareness.

With the old Reverend Mother!

But Jessica saw that the Reverend Mother didn't think of herself as old. An
image unfolded before the mutual mind's eye: a young girl with a dancing spirit
and tender humor.

Within the mutual awareness, the young girl said, "Yes, that is how I am."​

At the time, it was slightly shocking and revelatory; but the older I grow the more sense it has made. So my parents. And even myself: Feeling simultaneously prematurely old but still like a kid. And if we all have kids in us still, then maybe targeting YAs and adults simultaneously doesn't have to be such a difficult thing.

 

[Laurence]

And I don't like the assumption that YA is a 'dumbed down' version of adult fantasy. Where did that assumption come from?

Read The Book Theif, a story of a young illiterate german girl during the Holocaust who has taken to stealing books from burn piles in the city.

Or The Bar Code Tattoo, a story of a future where everyone's medical history and personal information is all in a tattoo on their wrist, and a girl who's father kills himself because he can't get a job because he "might be at risk for cancer."

Or The Giver, a story of a boy who is chosen to protect the memories of the past, and who must rescue a baby from being incinerated because it doesn't fit into his rigid society.

Or To Kill a Mockingbird (which, Yep, is categorized as YA). Which has some of the most beautiful themes on racism?

Or Roll of Thunder, Hear my Cry, which won the Newberry Medal, about a black family during the depression struggling with racism.

Or Monster, a book about an African American teenager on trial for felony murder in New York.

Thanks a bunch for the examples!

I'd like to point out that my confusion doesn't/didn't lie in why someone would write children's fiction, but in YA specifically because in my mind, young adults are essentially just adults in the way that they think (except that for a lot of them their world is still slightly more centred around themselves).

I imagine the reason I'm having trouble is because I'm 22 and don't fully feel a part of either group currently.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Thanks a bunch for the examples!

I'd like to point out that my confusion doesn't/didn't lie in why someone would write children's fiction, but in YA specifically because in my mind, young adults are essentially just adults in the way that they think (except that for a lot of them their world is still slightly more centred around themselves).

I imagine the reason I'm having trouble is because I'm 22 and don't fully feel a part of either group currently.

In the way that they think, maybe. I'm not convinced of this. (Having never been an adult, I can't say, but we change throughout our entire lives, so...) But in what's important to them, what affects their lives, what motivates them...their feelings and drives...teens are DEFINITELY extremely different from adults.

That said, the modern YA audience is extremely new. Even in my memory there seems to be a time where there was children's books and adult books, without much of an intervening category. Of course, books that fit the qualifications existed, but YA didn't become huge until rather recently. At least, I don't think so. In the 1980s (which I wasn't around for), did YA really exist?

 

[Laurence]

I getcha. I moved out to work full time in another city at age 17 and have always been a relationship kinda guy, having lived with a gal at 19. Maybe the reason I don't see the difference between YA and "adult" audiences is that I've unknowingly been thinking as an adult.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

So, I went to the library today and now my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before.

I checked out the book An Ember in the Ashes (by Sabaa Tahir) in the hope that it *might* be worth my time. It's very popular and I've heard incredible things about it, 200 pages later (I read fast, ok) I DNF'd with no remorse whatsoever. (DNF stands for Did Not Finish, for the uninitiated.)

It definitely counted as one of the "dark, gritty, mature" YA books. There was a ton of violence and torture, the threat of rape was omnipresent for the female characters, and the whole story had a dark, hopeless atmosphere that became depressing after a while. The violence wasnt really graphic, but it was EVERYWHERE. I didn't enjoy it much--the violence was rather pointless and plot-irrelevant except for shock value and a little disturbing in how casually it was handled and how liberally it was applied, the main character was weak, whiny, barely did anything proactive and had few skills, the bad guy (girl?) was so sadistic and evil she was a caricature, and the writing was mediocre. To be honest I rarely come across YA books with writing that's more than mediocre. Ember was supposedly on the high end in terms of writing and it still felt like plodding cotton candy fluff, nothing that stood out. (The low end in terms of writing: The Selection series, Delirium, The Mortal Instruments...there is some real crap out there that makes me cry to think trees died for it.)

Despite being a YA I really have outgrown YA level writing. My eyes flit across it without engaging my brain at all. I like masterfully woven prose. It feels good to read it, nourishing. I don't have conscious memories of learning to read, and I was reading plenty of novels when I was 7, so I'm not exactly on my reading level...but it's dawned on me that I hate reading below my ability.

That wasn't why I DNF'd Ember, but it was an observation I made. I get incredibly bored with the style of almost all YA books. (There are a few rare gems. Right now I'm reading Wolf by Wolf by Ryan Graudin, which is an amazing (in my opinion) alternate history, and I like the writing.)

Maybe the reason YA books are so popular, even among adults, is that audiences like fluffy writing. It's not challenging. But, are adult books any less fluffy? The adult books I have read haven't been the "mainstream" stuff. I doubt the dime-novel type pulp is much better.

Anyway, I'm starting to wonder why I defend YA when I hate 97% of it. Typically I really like the plotline a and stories, but hate the execution. Mediocre writing, complicated love subplots that strangle the main plot. I really could do without romance subplots half the time. I mean yeah, hot boys are great, I like them, but a substitute for a story, they are not. Middle grade novels are often actually better--same writing more or less, none of the unnecessary romance. The stories and premises tend to be stronger because they can't skimp on story by appealing to the readers' hormones.)

I didn't even finish the Hunger Games trilogy. (I read the first book because I owned it and couldn't be bothered to continue.) Haven't touched Divergent, the Mortal Instruments, anything else you hear about...My friends keep telling me to read them, but life is too short to waste on crappy books.

 

[skip.knox]

>then at 18 you're suddenly an adult

Nope. Some states say it's 21 (drinking age). The insurance companies tell you it's 25 (that's when your car insurance rates drop). And you can't be President until you're at least 35.

The 18 bar is only one of several.

 

[FifthView]

Maybe the reason YA books are so popular, even among adults, is that audiences like fluffy writing. It's not challenging. But, are adult books any less fluffy? The adult books I have read haven't been the "mainstream" stuff. I doubt the dime-novel type pulp is much better.

I don't know, there's pulp and then there's pulp, and sometimes there are the entertaining sort that doesn't bother itself too much with great themes, mind-bending plot turns, and so forth. I went through a phase when I was a teen when I read a lot of adventurous military science-fiction and/or space opera types of stories that featured adults, sure, and wouldn't be considered YA by today's standards. And books like the Myth Adventures fantasy series by Robert Asprin that are light, comedic reading. Sometimes something simple can be fun and engaging without being a case of Serious Literature™.

Mediocre writing, complicated love subplots that strangle the main plot. I really could do without romance subplots half the time. I mean yeah, hot boys are great, I like them, but a substitute for a story, they are not.

So I've wondered if what's considered YA is defined more by its particular themes and style in presenting those themes than about its specific target audience. Perhaps some YA readers really do enjoy those themes more than many adult readers. But then it's a type of genre writing, probably sub-sub-genre that has attached itself to the Young Adult label as a marketing ploy.

Middle grade novels are often actually better--same writing more or less, none of the unnecessary romance. The stories and premises tend to be stronger because they can't skimp on story by appealing to the readers' hormones.)

Have you ever tried to tell young relatives a story or relate an account of something you found extremely interesting? I have a 10-year-old nephew and a 7-year-old niece who I can engage in conversation for long periods of time—but not tell an extended story of my own, usually. Back-and-forth conversation with them can be fun, but it's like a jab in the heart to see their blank faces, wandering eyes, and so forth during one of my stories and come to realize that perhaps they're humoring me by not speaking during my tale. So maybe it's a little harder to tell tales in an engaging way to that younger crowd, requiring more care and forethought about subject and delivery.

 

[Holoman]

>then at 18 you're suddenly an adult

Nope. Some states say it's 21 (drinking age). The insurance companies tell you it's 25 (that's when your car insurance rates drop). And you can't be President until you're at least 35.

The 18 bar is only one of several.

I'm 30. I'm still waiting until I become and adult

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It certainly isn't just an affliction of YA, Adult fiction is full of crap writing... and remember I separate writing from story-telling... I will put down most books I pick up in the first few pages if I let my judgement of the writing stop me. I'm sort of reading Sanderson's free online novel Warbreaker, and I can stomach it in part because it is a draft, not a final, I don't think. But it's not easy because my editor brain keeps trying to kick me out of the story, LOL. But this happens a lot in finished/published works too. I've seen where on the 1st page of a New York Times #1 bestselling writer's book where I wanted to smack the writer twice before I got 3/4 of the way through the page. Not to say the writer isn't a good storyteller, but writer? yikes.

One of the things I find distressing, in fact, is the writer's slogan of "read, read, read". Lots of people who give this advice basically say you are going to learn to write from reading, but if you (generic you, the writer) really do "read, read, read" in order to learn to write, you will be reading a whole lot of crap, and learning to write crap. Now, let's just say read, read, read the classics! Well, that's great, but guess what? The classics are classics but they don't play to the modern genre audience nor even the literary audiences and their sensibilities. So, will reading Dickens (one of my favorites) teach you to write for a modern audience? No, probably not.

I started reading unpublished and unfinished works by writers in order to learn what not to do, I've learned way more by reading unpublished work than by reading pub'd works. But now that I've trained myself to find faults there, I now find them all over in pub'd works. Hopefully, that then translated into identifying problems in my own writing, so that I can finally focus most on storytelling.

Cormac McCarthy is one of the few writers I've read lately that comes off clean, once you get used to his quirks, LOL. In fantasy? I love fantasy, but God help me, it's hard to read so much of the writing.

So, I went to the library today and now my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before.

I checked out the book An Ember in the Ashes (by Sabaa Tahir) in the hope that it *might* be worth my time. It's very popular and I've heard incredible things about it, 200 pages later (I read fast, ok) I DNF'd with no remorse whatsoever. (DNF stands for Did Not Finish, for the uninitiated.)

It definitely counted as one of the "dark, gritty, mature" YA books. There was a ton of violence and torture, the threat of rape was omnipresent for the female characters, and the whole story had a dark, hopeless atmosphere that became depressing after a while. The violence wasnt really graphic, but it was EVERYWHERE. I didn't enjoy it much--the violence was rather pointless and plot-irrelevant except for shock value and a little disturbing in how casually it was handled and how liberally it was applied, the main character was weak, whiny, barely did anything proactive and had few skills, the bad guy (girl?) was so sadistic and evil she was a caricature, and the writing was mediocre. To be honest I rarely come across YA books with writing that's more than mediocre. Ember was supposedly on the high end in terms of writing and it still felt like plodding cotton candy fluff, nothing that stood out. (The low end in terms of writing: The Selection series, Delirium, The Mortal Instruments...there is some real crap out there that makes me cry to think trees died for it.)

Despite being a YA I really have outgrown YA level writing. My eyes flit across it without engaging my brain at all. I like masterfully woven prose. It feels good to read it, nourishing. I don't have conscious memories of learning to read, and I was reading plenty of novels when I was 7, so I'm not exactly on my reading level...but it's dawned on me that I hate reading below my ability.

That wasn't why I DNF'd Ember, but it was an observation I made. I get incredibly bored with the style of almost all YA books. (There are a few rare gems. Right now I'm reading Wolf by Wolf by Ryan Graudin, which is an amazing (in my opinion) alternate history, and I like the writing.)

Maybe the reason YA books are so popular, even among adults, is that audiences like fluffy writing. It's not challenging. But, are adult books any less fluffy? The adult books I have read haven't been the "mainstream" stuff. I doubt the dime-novel type pulp is much better.

Anyway, I'm starting to wonder why I defend YA when I hate 97% of it. Typically I really like the plotline a and stories, but hate the execution. Mediocre writing, complicated love subplots that strangle the main plot. I really could do without romance subplots half the time. I mean yeah, hot boys are great, I like them, but a substitute for a story, they are not. Middle grade novels are often actually better--same writing more or less, none of the unnecessary romance. The stories and premises tend to be stronger because they can't skimp on story by appealing to the readers' hormones.)

I didn't even finish the Hunger Games trilogy. (I read the first book because I owned it and couldn't be bothered to continue.) Haven't touched Divergent, the Mortal Instruments, anything else you hear about...My friends keep telling me to read them, but life is too short to waste on crappy books.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

It certainly isn't just an affliction of YA, Adult fiction is full of crap writing... and remember I separate writing from story-telling... I will put down most books I pick up in the first few pages if I let my judgement of the writing stop me. I'm sort of reading Sanderson's free online novel Warbreaker, and I can stomach it in part because it is a draft, not a final, I don't think. But it's not easy because my editor brain keeps trying to kick me out of the story, LOL. But this happens a lot in finished/published works too. I've seen where on the 1st page of a New York Times #1 bestselling writer's book where I wanted to smack the writer twice before I got 3/4 of the way through the page. Not to say the writer isn't a good storyteller, but writer? yikes.

One of the things I find distressing, in fact, is the writer's slogan of "read, read, read". Lots of people who give this advice basically say you are going to learn to write from reading, but if you (generic you, the writer) really do "read, read, read" in order to learn to write, you will be reading a whole lot of crap, and learning to write crap. Now, let's just say read, read, read the classics! Well, that's great, but guess what? The classics are classics but they don't play to the modern genre audience nor even the literary audiences and their sensibilities. So, will reading Dickens (one of my favorites) teach you to write for a modern audience? No, probably not.

I started reading unpublished and unfinished works by writers in order to learn what not to do, I've learned way more by reading unpublished work than by reading pub'd works. But now that I've trained myself to find faults there, I now find them all over in pub'd works. Hopefully, that then translated into identifying problems in my own writing, so that I can finally focus most on storytelling.

Cormac McCarthy is one of the few writers I've read lately that comes off clean, once you get used to his quirks, LOL. In fantasy? I love fantasy, but God help me, it's hard to read so much of the writing.

I'm of the opinion that everything you read has something to teach you. Whenever a book doesn't work for me, I analyze it. Why didn't it work? What did I want from it that it didn't accomplish? What was wrong with it? What would improve it? What could have been done differently? You can learn a lot by reading bad books. Typically I find some things that I hated and want to avoid and some things that I liked and want to emulate. Take the good and learn from it, take the bad and learn from it.

I wouldn't suggest making it habitual, though...reading bad writing tends to make your writing bad after a while.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I simply don't tend to read much anymore. Too much life to be lived, and too many stories to write, LOL. Historically, I tended to be a mimic, so reading can screw up my writing, although I may have passed that phase by now. Not sure. I'm done analyzing story and writing except when I cant avoid it while attempting to read for enjoyment, or when critiquing another writer's work for them. The trouble is in finding things I enjoy.

I'm of the opinion that everything you read has something to teach you. Whenever a book doesn't work for me, I analyze it. Why didn't it work? What did I want from it that it didn't accomplish? What was wrong with it? What would improve it? What could have been done differently? You can learn a lot by reading bad books. Typically I find some things that I hated and want to avoid and some things that I liked and want to emulate. Take the good and learn from it, take the bad and learn from it.

I wouldn't suggest making it habitual, though...reading bad writing tends to make your writing bad after a while.

 

[skip.knox]

@DragonOTA said " ... my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before."
To which I have to cite Sturgeon's Law, which I've cited innumerable times: seventy percent of everything is crap.
Learn this maxim. Embrace it, and the world will disappoint you less.

@DemesneDaNight said "I simply don't tend to read much anymore."
Me also neither. I do try. Recently got Jim Butcher's first Alera volume and found I was forcing myself to read it. Then saw a mention and bought Peter Beagle's The Last Unicorn and had to force myself to stop after five chapters in order to go write. Some books are worth reading. And a very few make me want to abandon any pretense of being a writer. Those are the ones that lodge in the heart and make me glad I am, whatever else I am, a reader.

 

[Reaver]

@DragonOTA said " ... my faith in young adult books is a little more eroded than it was before."
To which I have to cite Sturgeon's Law, which I've cited innumerable times: seventy percent of everything is crap.

Not to be confused with Sturgis' Law: seventy percent of everything is awesome and probably illegal in most states. Skip, you're the Obi Wan of Mythic Scribes, man. The next time I visit my brother in Kuna, I insist you let me buy you lunch.

 

[skip.knox]

@Reaver: done. If you let me buy, we can eat at Enriques!

... didn't Obi Wan die? ...

 

[Reaver]

@Reaver: done. If you let me buy, we can eat at Enriques!

... didn't Obi Wan die? ...

Deal. Obi Wan only died in the physical sense, he moved on to a higher plane of existence, hence his appearance in ROTJ.

I meant it as a compliment. You know, as in Joseph Campbell's wise mentor archetype.

 

[skip.knox]

I got it, and thanks. Sometimes my humor amuses others, sometimes it amuses only myself. Behold a higher plane of existence:

 

[Reaver]

I got it, and thanks. Sometimes my humor amuses others, sometimes it amuses only myself. Behold a higher plane of existence:

I know that this isn't one of those Rorschach tests, but for some reason I see the cover art for one of Jules Verne's unpublished novels. In this scene, a sailing ship is sunk by a Kraken and the survivors escape via a cleverly stored hot air balloon.

On a completely unrelated note, I may need my meds readjusted.