Writing about sex, intimacy and relationships

[RawkusSpectre]

I wrote this thread because of a very unusual problem which has been the main reason why my work in progress has grind to a halt (aside from a technological issue a few weeks back).

How do I write about sex, intimacy or relationships if I have never experienced intimacy with anyone, had a relationship and my only sexual experience involved sex with sex workers on a handful of occasions?

It wouldn't be such an issue if I was a teenager or in my early 20s but I'm turning 55 years old this year!

Somehow I doubt readers would want to read about an eighteen year old female character who is on a quest with a group of companions who find her a great person to be around but who also find her so physically repulsive they actually throw up at the thought of seeing her in a bikini, let alone having sex with her.

Do it tastefully. Write a few scenarios about your experiences, watch some romances, compare contrast. Read some romances or even erotica. Research like anything else. And of course there is the experience you've kept in having had little sexual experience, so I'm sure you've thought of what to say approaching a woman, and of course how you would serenade them. That's my advice. Btw I've read Kinsey, I don't suggest that form of research!

 

[Finchbearer]

The thing with the ‘fade to black’ suggestion is that I think it really is dependent on whether it would fit the themes of the story and the style of narrative. If you’re writing an epic fantasy series that explores the darker side of the human condition where we are already exposed to the harsh realities of life, and then we have a sort of PG-13 rated fade to black whenever sex comes up, it might jar a bit, or feel like a missed opportunity. Ok the other hand I don’t think we always need those graphic details of ‘the moving parts’ because too many of those scenes and it becomes smut. So, safe to say it has to be a balance and what’s appropriate to the story, in my opinion.

 

[pmmg]

It happened a few times with me. Strangely, most of those times were during the winter. One rather attractive gal answered the door in a towel, which came most of the way undone...but she caught it in time.

Then there are the adventures of my lovely young daughter. Her first job was at a fast-food joint staffed by the 'special' people. Being more dedicated than special, she attracted attention, resulting in an interview of sorts -

SP - 'Do you smoke weed?'

D - 'No.'

SP - 'Do you sleep around?'

D - 'No.'

SP - 'Then why are you working here?'

Later, she put in some time at Home Depot. I stopped by one day after work to pick up some tools and chatted with her for a moment. I idly noticed she was talking with another attractive young lady (they were both on counter detail.) Afterward, I hiked over to the grocery store where I spotted chocolate-dipped strawberries on sale. I bought a pack for myself and another for her and then went back to HD and gave her the strawberries. I told her to share with her friend. She called later and explained the other young lady was not her friend, but a hooker masquerading as a HD employee.

Then there were her sister's adventures in internet dating, but I'll pass on those (one involved a flying cell phone.)

Perhaps just a difference in the area in where we live.

I just made like 700 trips to HD in fixing up my bathroom. If any of them there were hookers, I wouldn't know. None of the ones I saw gave off any vibes like that.

I'll just say, I have not lived a life with a lot of access to sex workers. I don't think I could find one if I wanted to.

 

[Miles Lacey]

The thing with the ‘fade to black’ suggestion is that I think it really is dependent on whether it would fit the themes of the story and the style of narrative. If you’re writing an epic fantasy series that explores the darker side of the human condition where we are already exposed to the harsh realities of life, and then we have a sort of PG-13 rated fade to black whenever sex comes up, it might jar a bit, or feel like a missed opportunity. Ok the other hand I don’t think we always need those graphic details of ‘the moving parts’ because too many of those scenes and it becomes smut. So, safe to say it has to be a balance and what’s appropriate to the story, in my opinion.

I could not agree more. My story is set in a world not unlike that of our world in the 1930s when extreme socio-economic deprivation led to the rise of fascism in Europe and extreme ethnic militaristic nationalism in Japan. Thus, the whole "fade to black" thing wouldn't work for me. The style of the story is the gritty true crime pulp fiction that was so popular between the 1930s and 1950s so holding back on the sex stuff isn't an option.

Smut doesn't bother me in the slightest. The reason why I avoid too much detail is because I know how it feels to listen to the graphic details of what sex workers do from my best mate who moonlights as a sex worker. After a while, listening to all that detail led me to tell my mate "If you tell me one more time which hole you put your cock in no one will ever find your body." I was reading a book about forensic science at the time....

I've read a lot of books which involve romance and scenes of intimacy. I've even read Mills & Boon romances and watched various romance comedies and romantic movies. The only problem is that my main character and her companions are bisexual (as are the vast majority of people in the world I've created) so there will be same sex romance and sex but same sex romance films and novels are very hard to find. Any suggestions as to what books or films I should check out for such things?

 

[Finchbearer]

There’s moving parts, and then there’s love with moving parts. So depending on what you’re looking to reference, you’ve got a lot to research.

My only suggestions I can think of are as follows:

I enjoyed an old drama adapted from a book (that I haven’t read) called Tipping the Velvet, in which two women explore their homosexuality in Victorian England. I really enjoyed the series.

Another film is Carol, which I believe is also based on a book, and is set in 1950’s America. I also found that compelling to watch.

Another series is Gentleman Jack, again set in Victorian England that is adapted from real diary entries written by Anne Lister, who is also known as ‘the first modern lesbian’.

No, I am not closet gay, but I do like historical dramas.

 

[Queshire]

While this video is focused on NPCs in video games it's just so conveniently timed to this thread that I have to share it here;

 

[ThinkerX]

Well... if you are feeling brave and have a few minutes...


highlight to read.

Warning: Lots of naked people engaged in naked people activities.

https://mythicscribes.com/community/threads/leave-warning-adult-content.9966/

 

[Miles Lacey]

While this video is focused on NPCs in video games it's just so conveniently timed to this thread that I have to share it here;

Good point about letting NPCs in video games date other NPCs. Not sure how it would work in a setting where quartets rather than couples are the norm. But still very interesting.

 

[Finchbearer]

On the other side of the coin, if you are writing about negative sexual experiences, how can we handle this? Here is an excerpt from one of my WIP where I describe one of my characters experience of losing her virginity on her wedding night, and about her subsequent pregnancy;

It was not long after they were married that she felt a sudden swelling in her breasts followed by a strange new sense of smell, along with endless bloating. The other women confirmed to her that it was because she was pregnant. ___ loathed those words.

On the evening that they were wed, ___ was ineffectual at arousing her, thrusting himself atop her without care or attention. She remembered a mixture of emotions; fear, excitement and repulsion. After a painful and uncomfortable time, ___ finished whatever it was he did to her, and told her that she smelt.

 

[Mad Swede]

The thing with the ‘fade to black’ suggestion is that I think it really is dependent on whether it would fit the themes of the story and the style of narrative. If you’re writing an epic fantasy series that explores the darker side of the human condition where we are already exposed to the harsh realities of life, and then we have a sort of PG-13 rated fade to black whenever sex comes up, it might jar a bit, or feel like a missed opportunity. Ok the other hand I don’t think we always need those graphic details of ‘the moving parts’ because too many of those scenes and it becomes smut. So, safe to say it has to be a balance and what’s appropriate to the story, in my opinion.

I could not agree more. My story is set in a world not unlike that of our world in the 1930s when extreme socio-economic deprivation led to the rise of fascism in Europe and extreme ethnic militaristic nationalism in Japan. Thus, the whole "fade to black" thing wouldn't work for me. The style of the story is the gritty true crime pulp fiction that was so popular between the 1930s and 1950s so holding back on the sex stuff isn't an option.

Yes, holding back on the sex is an option, even in a story written in that style. Good examples would be Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett. Hammett in particular has a focus on some fairly nasty aspects of life as seen by a private detective, and his stories don't always have a happy ending. But there's no sex and very little in the way of intimacy.

Smut doesn't bother me in the slightest. The reason why I avoid too much detail is because I know how it feels to listen to the graphic details of what sex workers do from my best mate who moonlights as a sex worker. After a while, listening to all that detail led me to tell my mate "If you tell me one more time which hole you put your cock in no one will ever find your body." I was reading a book about forensic science at the time....

I'd suggest that perhaps you should read Lolita if you haven't already done so. It's very controversial and in some ways a rather unpleasant story. But, it isn't graphic in it's detail, Nabokov implies a lot more than he ever describes. I sometimes wonder if it is this, the way he implies things and makes the reader think about themselves, that makes the book so uncomfortable and so controversial.

I've read a lot of books which involve romance and scenes of intimacy. I've even read Mills & Boon romances and watched various romance comedies and romantic movies. The only problem is that my main character and her companions are bisexual (as are the vast majority of people in the world I've created) so there will be same sex romance and sex but same sex romance films and novels are very hard to find. Any suggestions as to what books or films I should check out for such things?

At this point I'd ask you what your story is about? What is the kernel of the story, the main theme and focus? Is it about relationships and the way they develop in a setting like that, or does the focus lie elsewhere? The reason I ask is that if the main theme and focus is on something other than relationships then I'd be looking to put in no more relationship detail than needed to support the main story, with the aim of not distracting from the main theme and any underlying message I wanted to convey.

 

[Miles Lacey]

I have read Lolita and also saw the film of the same name that starred Jeremy Irons. It was a very good book and i can certainly understand why it's very controversial even in this day in age. Lolita is younger than my main character as I decided my main character had to be at least the age of consent here in New Zealand (16 years of age). I like Nabokov's writing style as well.

What is the story about?

The main character is embarking upon a journey to right what is a very small wrong in the overall scheme of things: her thesis that would've allowed her to get a mage rank is rejected on dubious grounds by the local board of academics so she heads for the Imperial Capital to petition for her thesis to be re-assessed. Unless her thesis is approved as a work of academic merit she can't become a ranked mage and, therefore, practice magic in her own right.

The problem is that her thesis not only proves that the widespread belief that magic is randomly gifted by the gods is wrong but that it is theoretically possible to groom people so they will be gifted magic by the gods. It's the grooming side of her thesis that the antagonist (the Director of the dreaded Branch IX of the Ministry of Internal Security) wants to get hold of because he wants to raise an army of powerful patriotic mages who'll put service to the Empire first.

During the journey she is joined by companions who all have their own reasons for joining her. She establishes her hero credentials by helping people in need along the way. She also begins the journey as a streetwise youth with virtually no experience of love, romance or sex. Along the way she discovers at least two of these things as she comes to know her companions intimately.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Okay, my turn to chime in. I love writing sex. I love writing intimacy. The two are not the same, and it is not required to have both at the same time. It's complicated, and in the spaces between is where we do the dance of relationships.

If you can write violence, you can write sex. They're two sides of the same coin, they use much the same sort of language and much the same sort of interactions. Both should engage all the senses, and in Fantasy that can include senses beyond the traditional five. You don't have to have gone steel to steel with someone to imagine how it feels, and you don't have to have had intimacy, or even just fornication, to imagine how you should portray it. There is an entire Library of Alexandria out there on the subject, because all of us wrestle with it. I'm turning 49 for the second time in September. I've been with my wife for 34 years and counting, much to my awe and delight. And I during all this time I've had free license to roam and have had a lot of lovers, male and female. I've never gotten the hang of monogamy. I've also worked in adult entertainment managing strippers, who are the bravest, craziest, most underappreciated people I've ever met. Both girls and guys. And so I can tell you, with utter authority, that sex and intimacy are wonderful to have together, but not needed.

So, I'm going to pick through my own collection from our cyber library of lust and hopefully give you some sources that can help. But, when it comes down to it, intimacy is about letting down our guards, letting ourselves be touched both physically and mentally, and feeling safe with another person or persons. I know my wife's scent better than my own. I know the places she likes to be petted and how soft she is, and warm, and her laugh, and her favorite foods, and I care enough to not only know and remember, but to also provide when I see a need.

I'm not even talking about sex, yet.

Intimacy gives us the difference between love and like. Love is involuntary. It's the gods descending to whap you in particular with the twitterpating whiffle bat. You have no choice. You're in love. And it is all-consuming. It's the fire that burns down the world, and we can't stop dancing in it. It's what legends are made of. The biggest genre in publishing is entirely devoted to the idea that love conquers all.

Like, though, like isn't lesser. Like is a choice. You can love someone, but not like them very much. You can feel like you're addicted to their touch, but you're reluctant to open up to them. Like is what bridges that gap. I not only love my wife, I like her a whole hell of a lot. She's my favorite distraction, my bestest friend, the one who makes me laugh every single day and that is precious to me. But I have a choice. I'm not consumed with like. I make a choice every day, and so do many who are in love. Not all, 50% divorce rate and all, but enough to keep the world spinning for one more day.

Okay, enough prattling. Reading time. These are sources that I hope will prove helpful and more entry level than most. I'm trying to not get too esoteric here, but if I am please let me know and I'll dive back in for more.

These tip sheets prove very helpful to me for just keeping all the senses in mind as I write and provide some nice inspiration.
Checklists and Tip Sheets | One Stop For Writers

This is a nice little tasting menu of relationship tropes.
25 Types of Romantic Relationships-Which do you use/enjoy the most?

When in doubt, The Mary Sue delivers.
Smart Tropes in Sexy Books: Good Tropes in Romance Novels | The Mary Sue

I like Lithub. Good sex positive read from a female perspective.
https://lithub.com/why-sex-scenes-are-not-only-feminist-but-necessary/?fbclid=IwAR3AeyUoORv2iRN00G01IJNHcPTraij7-JmxSxXxnzT8f8JMCzf50ZcSvEE

And a nice little primer from an awesome lady.
How To Write About Sex Without Being Boring

And last, a little bit about intimacy.
11 Of The Best Ways To Build Intimacy Without Sex

Okay, I think that's enough for now. I hope this helps!

 

[ThinkerX]

I have read Lolita and also saw the film of the same name that starred Jeremy Irons. It was a very good book and i can certainly understand why it's very controversial even in this day in age. Lolita is younger than my main character as I decided my main character had to be at least the age of consent here in New Zealand (16 years of age). I like Nabokov's writing style as well.

What is the story about?

The main character is embarking upon a journey to right what is a very small wrong in the overall scheme of things: her thesis that would've allowed her to get a mage rank is rejected on dubious grounds by the local board of academics so she heads for the Imperial Capital to petition for her thesis to be re-assessed. Unless her thesis is approved as a work of academic merit she can't become a ranked mage and, therefore, practice magic in her own right.

The problem is that her thesis not only proves that the widespread belief that magic is randomly gifted by the gods is wrong but that it is theoretically possible to groom people so they will be gifted magic by the gods. It's the grooming side of her thesis that the antagonist (the Director of the dreaded Branch IX of the Ministry of Internal Security) wants to get hold of because he wants to raise an army of powerful patriotic mages who'll put service to the Empire first.

During the journey she is joined by companions who all have their own reasons for joining her. She establishes her hero credentials by helping people in need along the way. She also begins the journey as a streetwise youth with virtually no experience of love, romance or sex. Along the way she discovers at least two of these things as she comes to know her companions intimately.

This sounds familiar...

 

[A. E. Lowan]

This sounds familiar...

Sounds like my arts school.

 

[Miles Lacey]

This sounds familiar...

Oh crap. Don't tell me that something I had thought was an original story has been done before! Or were you referring to my assessment of the Lolita book?

 

[ThinkerX]

Oh crap. Don't tell me that something I had thought was an original story has been done before! Or were you referring to my assessment of the Lolita book?

I remember you describing and me commenting on your WIP a year or two ago. I suggested the bad buy might prefer to capture, rather than kill the heroine.

 

[Miles Lacey]

I remember you describing and me commenting on your WIP a year or two ago. I suggested the bad buy might prefer to capture, rather than kill the heroine.

I ultimately decided that the antagonist wanted to make the main character disappear. It is more ambiguous than to state his aim is to kill or capture her.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Okay, my turn to chime in. I love writing sex. I love writing intimacy. The two are not the same, and it is not required to have both at the same time. It's complicated, and in the spaces between is where we do the dance of relationships.

If you can write violence, you can write sex. They're two sides of the same coin, they use much the same sort of language and much the same sort of interactions. Both should engage all the senses, and in Fantasy that can include senses beyond the traditional five. You don't have to have gone steel to steel with someone to imagine how it feels, and you don't have to have had intimacy, or even just fornication, to imagine how you should portray it. There is an entire Library of Alexandria out there on the subject, because all of us wrestle with it. I'm turning 49 for the second time in September. I've been with my wife for 34 years and counting, much to my awe and delight. And I during all this time I've had free license to roam and have had a lot of lovers, male and female. I've never gotten the hang of monogamy. I've also worked in adult entertainment managing strippers, who are the bravest, craziest, most underappreciated people I've ever met. Both girls and guys. And so I can tell you, with utter authority, that sex and intimacy are wonderful to have together, but not needed.

So, I'm going to pick through my own collection from our cyber library of lust and hopefully give you some sources that can help. But, when it comes down to it, intimacy is about letting down our guards, letting ourselves be touched both physically and mentally, and feeling safe with another person or persons. I know my wife's scent better than my own. I know the places she likes to be petted and how soft she is, and warm, and her laugh, and her favorite foods, and I care enough to not only know and remember, but to also provide when I see a need.

I'm not even talking about sex, yet.

Intimacy gives us the difference between love and like. Love is involuntary. It's the gods descending to whap you in particular with the twitterpating whiffle bat. You have no choice. You're in love. And it is all-consuming. It's the fire that burns down the world, and we can't stop dancing in it. It's what legends are made of. The biggest genre in publishing is entirely devoted to the idea that love conquers all.

Like, though, like isn't lesser. Like is a choice. You can love someone, but not like them very much. You can feel like you're addicted to their touch, but you're reluctant to open up to them. Like is what bridges that gap. I not only love my wife, I like her a whole hell of a lot. She's my favorite distraction, my bestest friend, the one who makes me laugh every single day and that is precious to me. But I have a choice. I'm not consumed with like. I make a choice every day, and so do many who are in love. Not all, 50% divorce rate and all, but enough to keep the world spinning for one more day.

Okay, enough prattling. Reading time. These are sources that I hope will prove helpful and more entry level than most. I'm trying to not get too esoteric here, but if I am please let me know and I'll dive back in for more.

These tip sheets prove very helpful to me for just keeping all the senses in mind as I write and provide some nice inspiration.
Checklists and Tip Sheets | One Stop For Writers

This is a nice little tasting menu of relationship tropes.
25 Types of Romantic Relationships-Which do you use/enjoy the most?

When in doubt, The Mary Sue delivers.
Smart Tropes in Sexy Books: Good Tropes in Romance Novels | The Mary Sue

I like Lithub. Good sex positive read from a female perspective.
https://lithub.com/why-sex-scenes-are-not-only-feminist-but-necessary/?fbclid=IwAR3AeyUoORv2iRN00G01IJNHcPTraij7-JmxSxXxnzT8f8JMCzf50ZcSvEE

And a nice little primer from an awesome lady.
How To Write About Sex Without Being Boring

And last, a little bit about intimacy.
11 Of The Best Ways To Build Intimacy Without Sex

Okay, I think that's enough for now. I hope this helps!

Some excellent reading options here. I will check them out when time allows.

 

[Mad Swede]

I have read Lolita and also saw the film of the same name that starred Jeremy Irons. It was a very good book and i can certainly understand why it's very controversial even in this day in age. Lolita is younger than my main character as I decided my main character had to be at least the age of consent here in New Zealand (16 years of age). I like Nabokov's writing style as well.

What is the story about?

The main character is embarking upon a journey to right what is a very small wrong in the overall scheme of things: her thesis that would've allowed her to get a mage rank is rejected on dubious grounds by the local board of academics so she heads for the Imperial Capital to petition for her thesis to be re-assessed. Unless her thesis is approved as a work of academic merit she can't become a ranked mage and, therefore, practice magic in her own right.

The problem is that her thesis not only proves that the widespread belief that magic is randomly gifted by the gods is wrong but that it is theoretically possible to groom people so they will be gifted magic by the gods. It's the grooming side of her thesis that the antagonist (the Director of the dreaded Branch IX of the Ministry of Internal Security) wants to get hold of because he wants to raise an army of powerful patriotic mages who'll put service to the Empire first.

During the journey she is joined by companions who all have their own reasons for joining her. She establishes her hero credentials by helping people in need along the way. She also begins the journey as a streetwise youth with virtually no experience of love, romance or sex. Along the way she discovers at least two of these things as she comes to know her companions intimately.

OK, then I'll modify my question a little. Are you using her journey as the basis or frame for a story about how and what she learns about herself? If so, then I think you'll need to have quite a lot of focus on her personal growth in terms of learning about intimacy and close friendship. I'm not sure I'd take the story as far as describing sex in detail, for me the more interesting side of things would be her character growth. I'd be looking to use that growth as part of the way she tries to right the wrong done to her. That, to me, is the basis for a very promising novel.

 

[Miles Lacey]

OK, then I'll modify my question a little. Are you using her journey as the basis or frame for a story about how and what she learns about herself? If so, then I think you'll need to have quite a lot of focus on her personal growth in terms of learning about intimacy and close friendship. I'm not sure I'd take the story as far as describing sex in detail, for me the more interesting side of things would be her character growth. I'd be looking to use that growth as part of the way she tries to right the wrong done to her. That, to me, is the basis for a very promising novel.

If truth be told I never thought about it in that way but I can see why the story would come across that way. I largely saw it as a hero's journey adventure story.