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Exploring Assassin's Creed 2

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Mindfire and Philster:

I have not played AC2 long enough to see if Ezio feels remorse after killing his Targets, or not. So far I have only assassinated the evil man that hanged Ezio's father and brothers, and the Templar boy in the other town during the night. Certainly, the fact that the Borgias are super evil would make it easier and more justifiable for Ezio to kill them.

Then, what about the Guards?

In the Catacomb mission, there were some guards talking about how happy they were to have earned so much gold for that particular job. They were not responsible for Ezio's tragedy, they were there simply because some Templar paid them a lot of money to protect the special meeting.

The game requires Ezio to kill them anyway, then you have to chase and kill the lonely guard that runs away and after that you kill some more guards at a different room.

Ezio showed no remorse after this part of the game was over.

That's the kind of thing Altair would do, and it's precisely what I feel that comes into conflict with the charming hero approach. Think of dear old Link (Legend of Zelda): He chases and kills monsters only, never people... while in the other hand, Ezio kills people like an Assassin does.
 

Philster401

Maester
Remember your playing a game inside of a persons memories of a persons memory we don't know how ezio actually killed/didn't kill people. So if you wish to play it in a way that would make more sense to you for example playing with weapons that wouldn't kill that's your choice and it would also make the game more difficult which should be a plus for you if you are looking for more difficult fights.
 

Mindfire

Istar
The guards? You mean the incredibly corrupt, dickish guards who work for the Borgias and will shoot you full of arrows just for being on a roof?
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Philster, I am sorry if you feel offended by my criticizing of Ezio Auditore and Assassin's Creed 2.

I know and accept that it's a great game, and I am happy that you and surely millions of other players have enjoyed and loved it so much. My intention with this thread is to show why I have disapproved of it, and why (at least in my opinion) AC2 is not an Assassin game but something very different.

It's like they took some elements from AC, combined them with Zelda elements, added some other things and Assassin's Creed 2 was created as the result.

Maybe as I advance deeper into the game I'll like it more and separately from AC, who knows.
 

Philster401

Maester
No I'm not really offended I accept that some of what you say is true and the other half I have no clue about mostly Zelda I personally don't care for legend of Zelda but that is a different story. I just am trying to help but I accept that my posts could be taken as being offended and I'm sorry if I offended you.
 
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Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
If you kill citizens as Ezio, you get desynchronization. I accidentally did it once, when I crashed into some people and was armed. I killed two or three people because I was running from guards and the game first warned me that Ezio "did not kill civilians" and then it desynchronized.

I think for me, I related to Ezio immediately. Maybe it's my love of Renaissance Italy, maybe the game was what really brought that passion forward for me. Before playing the game, I tended to create English gowns and wasn't too interested in the garb on the continent, but after, I couldn't get enough of the Venetian styles. IN fact, I realized some of Queen Elizabeth's dresses I loved so much were styled after "the Italian fashion" as recorded in a letter where Queen Elizabeth sent someone to Italy to steal a tailor from Catherine de Medici.

I think for me, the game was less about trying to understand Ezio as a real life person and acknowledging that he was a creation of a fantasy world. In my writing, I do the same. Take a normal person, throw them into a fantasy world, ramp up their traits and triggers, and set them on their way like an overwound set of chattering teeth or something. Just watch where they go and what happens. Sometimes they turn out alright...other times, they leave damage in their wake. It's sort of what makes it fantasy and fun to me. If I was playing a character that murdered women in their homes...I wouldn't have enjoyed it because it would have struck close to home. But the adventure and fiction of it was what made me want to play on, to see where the story was going. I wouldn't condone killing off people who wronged you...but there's something rather cathartic about doing it in a video game for fun. Does that make me callous? I don't think so. It's not much different from any other sort of fiction. I mean, I write swordsmen and mages who do things that might be considered immoral, but I put them in circumstances where their lives are on the line or they need to make difficult decisions, and they MUST do things we don't really have to do in real life.

That's sort of how I saw Ezio. He has enemies not unlike the military might. I wouldn't call Ezio any more a killer than I would a soldier or a cop. His role is to create a balance and root out a corrupt group of people. That large goal overshadows the small immoral things that lead up to it (like killing guards who are technically innocent though they would kill him if given the chance). I didn't ever feel like Ezio's story made him a monster. In fact, when you're upgrading the house and taking care of his mother, you see how much he's sacrificed to bring his father's murderers to justice. I think perhaps Ezio appeals to people who love Batman (yes, going back to the timeless Batman/ Superman debate I started like 2 years ago). Perhaps you just happen to be a Superman kinda girl, Sheila. And that's okay. I understand that you probably have different tastes. But for me, it's Batman (and Ezio) all the way. Because revenge is something that drives my spirit and imagination oh so much more than righteousness and good for the sake of goodness. See, that's a sort of character I'd find terribly dull and it wouldn't hold my attention. I guess it's one of the biggest reasons I write sort of average Joe characters into my books rather than heroes. I like normal people with complex personalities who have to make tough decisions and have to keep their emotions in check and their flaws under control. Probably because I'm so much more like them than the heroic characters.
 
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Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
@Philster: No worries, I am fine and happy to be able to discuss this respectfully.

Mindfire, the issue with the Guards is an interesting one. While it's true that many of them are evil (like the ones Altair kills in Save the Citizen missions) and other guards work happily for their corrupt masters in both games, there are also good guards that simply want to protect their cities.

When Altair kills somebody in front of the Masyaf guards, they immediately charge to try and stop him. The same has happened to my Ezio in Florence: In case there are Florentine guards nearby when Ezio abuses the civilians, they rush to attack him in defense of the people.

The games say "Killing Civilians is Wrong!", but for some reason it's okay to kill dozens and even hundreds of righteous guards who probably only got into that job to give their families a better life. This unusual system of moral values is present in all of the AC games except for Rogue, as far as I know.

Tonight I have completed the Climbing inside of the Florence Cathedral.

It was very frustrating, but getting to the top of the very cross outside was quite satisfying in a way similar to Altair's climb of the Acre Cathedral. After that I completed the scenes when the Pazzi leader attacked the Medici brothers... That looked quite brutal, and the game does not feel so Disney anymore.

The Assassination of the Pazzi leader after that was cool, though still not as intense as my favorites in AC.

I am trying to be more friendly to Ezio while I play with him, but still I cannot get over the fact that he feels like a romantic justice hero instead of a real Assassin. Hell, I even hate his suit which looks so extravagant in comparison to Altair's, like Ezio was supposed to be... What? A fashionable Assassin?

From my point of view of all this, it's like the developers Ubisoft said:

"Oh great, Assassin's Creed is excellent but people want a more likeable character. The story is about these killers called Assassin, but let's make a charismatic serial killer anyway... He will be hot and sexy, and let's give him a touching story so people can relate to him. A lovable hero, despite all the murdering involved! Screw the concept of the Cold Assassin that we started with..."

I'll probably never understand completely why most AC players love Ezio so much, because I think in a very different way, but I have grasped a pretty good explanation so far.

@Maiden:

The desynchronization for killing civilians is present in AC1 too, but you need to murder several civilians quickly for it to take place. There is much less tolerance for the same behavior in AC2, despite the fact that you can grab, toss, kick and rob all the civilians that you want and nothing happens.

I accidentally kill civilians in AC1 when they run through a fight between Altair and the guards, which is something very bad to do because it leads to Altair losing Synchronization levels and getting destroyed by the vicious guards more easily.

The most interesting part of AC is this: After completing the game you can kill all the civilians that you want and nothing happens, so it can be nasty, shocking and even cathartic (as you said) to simply walk into Jerusalem with the sword in Altair's hand and unleash some catastrophic devastation everywhere.

I agree that our like or dislike of the Settings can influence our appreciation of the entire game.

For you it has been your love of Renaissance Italy, and in my case I have fallen in love with the Third Crusade setting of AC. The Crusades have always been a fascinating part of History to me, and to watch Altair meeting King Richard I the Lionheart in person was a fantastic experience.

I don't think of Ezio as simply a monster: To me he is a serial killer disguised as a sexy hero so people will find him likable, and that makes me feel totally repulsed.

No, I am not a fan of Superman type of characters.

Altair is an unstoppable monster when you learn to use him well in combat, but if you make even simple mistakes during a heavy battle it's quite likely that he will get killed. I love his coldness, shallow emotions and very diminished sense of empathy because I am like him in similar ways, but I love Link too, just in different games.

They took the ominous and cold Assassin's Creed and remodeled the concept to make simply yet another hero story, and that's what saddened me so much.

I want to try Connor very soon, let's see what he is like...
 
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Philster401

Maester
Honestly I think you hit it right on the spot about what the game creators did. They straight out say it is a more relaxed and less series because how people dwlt about the coldhearted killer, Altair. From what I remember though each character fit the story they needed.Ezio is a character that is charismatic because he needs to be able to sway the hearts of the citizens. He also wasn't brought up in the way of assassin's unlike Altair because by the time Ezio became an assassin there was no true assassin base to train assassins. Also his father didn't want Ezio to become an assassin. While Altair grew up as an assassin because of his father brought him up that way. And if you think about it Altair's assassins were quite unassassin like they literally had a huge castle with hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands of assassins. While talking about they talked about the assassins in public. While by the time Ezio came around the assassins were much more of an underground group like they should be like the thieves guild in skyrim.

Finally it all depends on motive, Ezio wanted revenge which is a very used plot device but also a very good one for his type of character. While Altair um.. actually I don't know what he fought for except to regain his standing with the master and for his honor.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Well with the guards, the thing is, they're all corrupt. All of them. Every single one. I know it beggars belief, but that's how it is. They close people's shops for no reason, or just so the Borgias can control the land. In some of the missions you happen across them beating up civilians just because they can. I mean, sure they'll intervene in civil disturbances, but I'm not sure that qualifies them as "good". They're such dicks that they'll push you around just for bumping into them accidentally. And they're so petty that if you keep running they will follow you just so they can push you around and tell you to watch where you're going because they're so important. As I see it, the guards are just Borgia thugs. But if that stretches your suspension of disbelief too far, you can always just consider them enemy soldiers, casualties of war and whatnot.

As for the suit, he's an Italian. In Renaissance Italy. Those fashions are reasonably historically accurate. Assassins have to blend in, yes? Well in a society where extravagant and colorful clothes are the norm, what stands out more: a plain, drab garment, or a more stylish outfit that's in keeping with what everyone else is wearing?
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Philster, I agree with you that they created Ezio to relax the series, please most of the players and to fit well into the type of story that they wanted for the second game. It's also understandable that he was raised in a way totally different to Altair, so we cannot expect even a remotely similar character.

I still dislike him a lot and wish that they had made a sequel similar to the first AC, though.

From a historical point of view, the real world Assassins did control the Masyaf Castle as their headquarters and the village was their hometown. They were very famous and feared by Saracens and Crusaders alike, and they were known for murdering their targets in daylight and in public places as well (just like the game) so it would have a greater psychological impact.

The difference is that the game's Assassins are a philosophical brotherhood while the historic Assassins were a strictly religious order, and the same is true about the Templar Knights.

@Mindfire: I am not sure, I still need to advance more into AC2 to get to know its Guards better.

So far I have not seen them abusing the civilians, but even though that is part of the game later it's clear that not all of them act like that... and some have tried to defend the people from my abusive Ezio, risking and losing their lives in the process.

If those guards in particular were evil, they would join Ezio instead of trying to stop him.

I accept that Ezio's fans view him as a Zorro or perhaps an Aguila Roja type of character and love him that way. That's what it feels like to play as him, at least. I love Aguila Roja (character from a Spanish TV series) and I understand the feeling, so maybe it's all the sexiness, warmness and fashionable stuff that I dislike about Ezio the most.

The brave Aguila Roja is colder and more serious than Ezio, and yet he sometimes expressed remorse because of his kills.

Sorry, but the Italian setting is no excuse for Ezio's ridiculous outfit. He looks so extravagant that he draws a lot of attention just by walking in the streets of Florence, and I can hear the people around commenting and wondering about him. The guards become suspicious immediately thanks to the crazy suit, as well...

They could have designed a renaissance Assassin suit for Ezio, stylish and everything, but they went for the extravagance in order to make the character more fashionable and sexy.

Altair's outfit is unusual too, but not to the point of drawing attention to himself just because of his looks.

Watch Aguila Roja in battle Here.
 
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Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
The clothing is NOT historical. At all. It is completely fantasy-inspired and has more of an Asian aesthetic than European. It fits however with modern tastes of how men SHOULD dress, but in Renaissance Italy, men were more pretty. They didn't wear boots. They wore tight pants and high-waisted doublets. The skirting is Asian, not European on Ezio's doublet, and the cape and belts are way too rugged to be anywhere close to authentic. That being said, I loved them. I recreated Ezio's outfit to fence in, and it makes me immediately recognizable on the field. But it isn't NEAR historical. Just FYI, I suppose. Again, the game is a work of fantasy as much as the stories I write that are somewhat historical but mostly just fiction and fantasy. But to me, that's what makes them fun.
 

Gryphos

Auror
I think the best thing to do is to stop thinking of Ezio as an Assassin. He's only as much of an Assassin as wearing the hidden blade makes him. Instead think of him as a swashbuckling hero who happens to do most of his work stealthily.

If you want a game about a cold-hearted assassin I would possibly suggest the Hitman series, as well as Dishonored. Ooh, and definitely Mark of the Ninja, held by many to be one of the best stealth games ever made.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Hey Gryphos.

Thanks for your recommendations, but the settings, character and general atmosphere of those games are definitely not for me. It's not that I don't like swashbuckling heroes, my case with AC2 is that, at least in my opinion, it was a disaster to combine that style of character and gameplay with elements from the first game.

It simply does not work for me.

I fell in love not only with Altair as a character, but with the gameplay of AC as well: The big castle, cool historic setting, Altair's small hometown, the harrowing battles and the fact that you have this mysterious and cool boss... and you must present him with good results, because you are the best Assassin that he can count on.

Traveling to a far off city with the clear and precise mission to kill a Target, researching the necessary information by a variety of means to choose from, figuring out the best strategy to make the final kill and then the bells of the city ringing like mad and Altair running on the rooftops while hundreds of Guards search for him...

These elements really made me feel like an Assassin, and AC2 is a completely different thing.
 
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Gryphos

Auror
Hey Gryphos.

Thanks for your recommendations, but the settings, character and general atmosphere of those games are definitely not for me. It's not that I don't like swashbuckling heroes, my case with AC2 is that, at least in my opinion, it was a disaster to combine that style of character and gameplay with elements from the first game.

It simply does not work for me.

I fell in love not only with Altair as a character, but with the gameplay of AC as well: The big castle, cool historic setting, Altair's small hometown, the harrowing battles and the fact that you have this mysterious and cool boss... and you must present him with good results, because you are the best Assassin that he can count on.

Traveling to a far off city with the clear and precise mission to kill a Target, researching the necessary information by a variety of means to choose from, figuring out the best strategy to make the final kill and then the bells of the city ringing like mad and Altair running on the rooftops while hundreds of Guards search for him...

These elements really made me feel like an Assassin, and AC2 is a completely different thing.

That's fair enough. It won't be for everyone. I will say that if you are really attached to the aspects present in the first game, you'll have the same problem you're having with AC2 with AC Brotherhood, Revelations, and even AC3. Black Flag goes full on with the pirate theme, so there's very little assassining. I haven't played Unity, so I can't speak for that. There is another one coming out in the near future, Syndicate, which I'm hopeful of, but ever suspicious of Ubisoft.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I agree with that about Black Flag. You aren't even a real assassin, you steal an assassin's coat and assume his identity in the beginning and only later in the story do the assassins catch up to you and demand an explanation...after you've sort of messed up some of their plans. If I didn't love sinking ships so much, this game would have been a bust for me.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Thank you everyone for your feedback and valuable points of view.

I'll start playing the universally hated Assassin's Creed 3 tomorrow and Rogue within a week, hoping to enjoy some colder characters in North American settings that look really beautiful in every video that I have seen. The ship battles at least sound very attractive, can't wait to shoot cannons and sink some ships like you love to do, Maiden.

It seems that the only way to enjoy these series is to forget the past elements that you enjoyed, and then adapt to the ever changing gameplay presented to us... Then, so be it.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Yeah, just wait till you have to harpoon whales...not my favorite part of Black Flag, since I'm sort of...appalled by whaling.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Assassin's Creed 3 wasn't "universally hated". Despite some of the poor opinions of fans it had great reviews and stellar sales.

In fact, people's biggest complaint about the game seemed to be that Connor wasn't Ezio. lol
 
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Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Actually I don't fancy that virtual whaling at all, poor whales!

I don't want to play Black Flag, because I am not attracted to the Pirates stuff and the Caribbean setting in any way. I bought Rogue to experience the sailing and ship battles, in a Northern American scenario with icy waters... and even the Northern Lights! Yeah, that's what I want =)

@Mindfire: It was great to hear good comments about AC3 from Reaver and you, that's why I decided to purchase it.

The critic spoke well of the game indeed, but it was very difficult for me to find good reviews from users amid a sea of hate and despise. You are right, most of the hate is aimed at Connor and not really at the game so I guess that I'll enjoy it.

My new Exploring Assassin's Creed 3 thread coming soon!
 
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