Garren Jacobsen
Auror
Alright, this guy says don't do a query letter. I disagree. He says don't and explains why but I don't see any facts. So, what do you think of this guy's advice?
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Query Letters do you agree with this guy?
- Thread starter Garren Jacobsen
- Start date
Alright, this guy says don't do a query letter. I disagree. He says don't and explains why but I don't see any facts. So, what do you think of this guy's advice?
He would be much more persuasive if he could point to examples where an unknown author ignored industry standards and got published. Many examples. As it is, it merely sounds like one guy talking (akin to one hand clapping, without the Zen factor). Note also he includes no links, no references. There's no way even to check him out.
Drive through.
Drive through.
cupiscent
Sage
Wow, this is terrible advice. TERRIBLE. Let me count the ways:
1. Ignoring the agent's submissions requirements is the best way to get your submission binned. Moreover, do it too often to too many agents, it's a good way to get yourself a bad name. Agents talk to each other. They share experiences. You demonstrate you can't follow instructions for submissions, and why would they want to work with you, let alone take a risk representing you to editors and publishers? You think you're too important to follow instructions.
2. Send hard copy? Are you kidding me? He even notes that most agents do their reading on the subway. You know what they do it on? Electronic devices. Does he really think agents juggle hundreds of pages of submissions on the subway? (Not to mention how expensive that is for everyone involved.)
3. What he describes as faults of all queries (for instance, that they're boring) is only a fault of bad query letters. Write an exciting query letter, duh. Encapsulate what makes your book amazing (not just the plot). His examples are genuinely terrible.
4. His theme of "you write fiction, not sales letters" is totally a thing that I sympathise with, especially as I wrestle with writing my own query, but you know what? In this day and age, authors who can adapt to various styles of writing - articles, blog posts, reviews - have a wider platform and are more marketable. It's a skill. We need it. Plus: it's words. You're claiming to be good at words. Prove it.
5. "You want them to read your pages". Yes. Exactly. For starters, almost every agent I've ever submitted to (over 30) has asked for sample pages as well as a query (first five, first ten, first thirty). BUT every agent I've encountered speaking about their working method notes that the only way she gets to the pages is if the query hooks her. Otherwise? Never happens. (I have in fact seen variations on the phrase: "If you can't write an interesting 250 words, why should I bother looking at your 100k efforts?")
Look, maybe this method would be better for you if you really, really suck at query letters. But every "how I got my agent" story I have ever, ever read - and for a while when I was querying my first book, I read dozens of them - involved a kick-ass query letter. I'mma stick with the proven method.
PS: The way he pronounces "query" was driving me mental. Is that really the way Americans pronounce it? (For the record, I would say: queer-ee.
1. Ignoring the agent's submissions requirements is the best way to get your submission binned. Moreover, do it too often to too many agents, it's a good way to get yourself a bad name. Agents talk to each other. They share experiences. You demonstrate you can't follow instructions for submissions, and why would they want to work with you, let alone take a risk representing you to editors and publishers? You think you're too important to follow instructions.
2. Send hard copy? Are you kidding me? He even notes that most agents do their reading on the subway. You know what they do it on? Electronic devices. Does he really think agents juggle hundreds of pages of submissions on the subway? (Not to mention how expensive that is for everyone involved.)
3. What he describes as faults of all queries (for instance, that they're boring) is only a fault of bad query letters. Write an exciting query letter, duh. Encapsulate what makes your book amazing (not just the plot). His examples are genuinely terrible.
4. His theme of "you write fiction, not sales letters" is totally a thing that I sympathise with, especially as I wrestle with writing my own query, but you know what? In this day and age, authors who can adapt to various styles of writing - articles, blog posts, reviews - have a wider platform and are more marketable. It's a skill. We need it. Plus: it's words. You're claiming to be good at words. Prove it.
5. "You want them to read your pages". Yes. Exactly. For starters, almost every agent I've ever submitted to (over 30) has asked for sample pages as well as a query (first five, first ten, first thirty). BUT every agent I've encountered speaking about their working method notes that the only way she gets to the pages is if the query hooks her. Otherwise? Never happens. (I have in fact seen variations on the phrase: "If you can't write an interesting 250 words, why should I bother looking at your 100k efforts?")
Look, maybe this method would be better for you if you really, really suck at query letters. But every "how I got my agent" story I have ever, ever read - and for a while when I was querying my first book, I read dozens of them - involved a kick-ass query letter. I'mma stick with the proven method.
PS: The way he pronounces "query" was driving me mental. Is that really the way Americans pronounce it? (For the record, I would say: queer-ee.
Googled this guy up and here's his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Graubart_Levin
Three things I picked out. First, what he calls a cover letter is just a really short query letter, replacing the synopsis with what amounts to a log line. Second, ignoring agent guidelines may get your manuscript put aside as quickly as a bad query letter. Third, send physical copies? Dude this is 2015.
Sure email is easy to delete but with physical manuscripts, it's almost as easy to toss them into the recycling bin without opening because it's cluttering up the office. E-manuscripts can be read on the phone, loaded into ereaders, etc. Who wants to carry a 50 page physical manuscript onto a subway? If an agent has 10 manuscripts, that's 500 pages, which is a whole ream of paper. Imagine trying to carry that onto the subway. I'd be more inclined to toss it.
Edit: cupiscent Ninja'd some of what I had to say.
Three things I picked out. First, what he calls a cover letter is just a really short query letter, replacing the synopsis with what amounts to a log line. Second, ignoring agent guidelines may get your manuscript put aside as quickly as a bad query letter. Third, send physical copies? Dude this is 2015.
Sure email is easy to delete but with physical manuscripts, it's almost as easy to toss them into the recycling bin without opening because it's cluttering up the office. E-manuscripts can be read on the phone, loaded into ereaders, etc. Who wants to carry a 50 page physical manuscript onto a subway? If an agent has 10 manuscripts, that's 500 pages, which is a whole ream of paper. Imagine trying to carry that onto the subway. I'd be more inclined to toss it.
Edit: cupiscent Ninja'd some of what I had to say.
X Equestris
Maester
Yeah, ignoring submission requirements isn't going to earn you any love with agents. Not doing them when they're asked for is, frankly, stupid.
Also, the idea that "you write fiction, not sales letters" doesn't make much sense if you're trying to sell your work to somebody. At that point, you're pretty much a businessperson.
Cupiscent, I would pronounce it the same as you, and I'm an American.
Also, the idea that "you write fiction, not sales letters" doesn't make much sense if you're trying to sell your work to somebody. At that point, you're pretty much a businessperson.
Cupiscent, I would pronounce it the same as you, and I'm an American.
Trick
Auror
Have to agree with the responses.
As to the pronunciation, I think that's dialectal. I hear both pronunciations often enough.
As to the pronunciation, I think that's dialectal. I hear both pronunciations often enough.
- Thread starter
- #7
Garren Jacobsen
Auror
[video]https://www.simpsonsworld.com/video/302317635760/related/302317635760[/video]
So like this?
Cupiscent, no he's not pronouncing it how most people I know (in the intermountain west) would pronounce it.
Yeah I saw this discussion over on Scribo and it was getting some traction with people. Just wanted to see this community's responses.
Tom
Istar
He's got an East Coast accent; I can tell. Probably New England. I say it exactly as he does: Quare-ee.
Anyway, I don't think he's right at all. In fact, he seems to have gotten the very meaning of query letters wrong. As I've always understood it, query letters are supposed to tell the agent what a book is. You know, things like genre, target age group, format, etc. I'd say those are essential facts agents need when considering whether or not to pick up your book. A good query letter can provide both those pieces of information and a well-written synopsis of the book--informing and entertaining, if you will.
Well, there's my two cents.
Russ
Istar
His advice on this issue is worthless.
Agents and editors are looking for people that they can work with. How does he think an agent will form the impression that you are someone that will take direction and work well with them when you can't even follow their basic directions for submissions?
Even very experienced and successful writers still write query letters and synopsis for their agents and editors. A aspiring author would be most unwise to skip this step.
Nameste.
Agents and editors are looking for people that they can work with. How does he think an agent will form the impression that you are someone that will take direction and work well with them when you can't even follow their basic directions for submissions?
Even very experienced and successful writers still write query letters and synopsis for their agents and editors. A aspiring author would be most unwise to skip this step.
Nameste.
dang, I wrote this as the second post, but then I must have closed the window, because I didn't post it. SO belatedly (and repetitively), here's my two cents:
I'm not an expert, but to me....this looks like a video of what NOT to do. I don't know about you guys, but if I were a professional agent and I spent the time to publish a website where I detailed exactly how to submit a query to me--to make sure I could easily read it, to ensure it contains all the things I need to make my decision, and to make the material presentable, I'd be offended by people who can't follow the simple instructions.
Now, I do subscribe to the belief that sometimes thinking outside the box is a good thing--to stand out, to show I've done my homework. I'd be more inclined to enjoy a query where the writer is both professional AND personal, perhaps showing they've read my blog by including a personal line like, "You just tweeted how interested you are in Gothic architecture, so I hope my Medieval setting appeals to you, I'm a big fan of architecture, too." Or something. But I'd never recommend to anyone to be this unprofessional. Most agencies ask you NOT to call them (because it feels like pestering). They also tend to want email submissions because paper sits around taking up space and it isn't very eco-friendly to send print sample chapter entries to only have them shredded. I can't imagine an agent is very likely (or even more likely) to read a 50-page submission on the subway than they are to open a tablet and read an e-submission. That's just ludicrous. Besides, wouldn't most professional agents clock out at 5pm and go home without dragging unsolicited queries around for the ride home? I mean...don't they have lives like everyone else?
This is stupidity if you ask me, and I like to think outside the box. Here's some advice I would give to people in my last job (as a recruiter and regarding their CVs/ applications/ resumes: "Your resume isn't the place to get cute. You might think a cookie font is interesting and shows how fun you are, but to me it is just annoying to have to read your cute-ass font and little clip art borders, and it comes off as completely unprofessional to someone who wants to scan and find the important items." That's how I feel about query letters. If the agent asks for a synopsis, it's because they believe a good synopsis is what they need to properly judge the concept of the story. If they ask for sample pages to accompany every query, it's important to follow the guidelines (only including 10 pages rather than a whole chapter, if that's what they ask for).
If someone can't follow a few simple requests, why would you even want to work with them? I wouldn't. I can't imagine agents, who notoriously are pressed for time and bombarded with unsolicited submissions around every turn, surely don't want to take on the sort of difficult client who needs every damn thing done special, the way they like it. That attitude won't get you noticed in a good way. It's a recipe for disaster.
Now...that being said, I think if you have an opportunity to meet agents in person and form a budding relationship through honest dialogue, I'd consider doing things a little more brazenly, perhaps. Maybe I'd mention something like, 'I'm so glad we met at Fantasy Con last month and I was so excited that you asked me to submit my book to you." or something. But I wouldn't even at that point pick up the phone and presume to sell myself by committing the writer equivalent of elbowing one's way to the front of the checkout counter, hoping to be served before the patient folks who waited their turns. Yeah, not at all a good way to be noticed. What ludicrous advice. Please, don't anyone buy into this. It's simply ridiculous.
I'm not an expert, but to me....this looks like a video of what NOT to do. I don't know about you guys, but if I were a professional agent and I spent the time to publish a website where I detailed exactly how to submit a query to me--to make sure I could easily read it, to ensure it contains all the things I need to make my decision, and to make the material presentable, I'd be offended by people who can't follow the simple instructions.
Now, I do subscribe to the belief that sometimes thinking outside the box is a good thing--to stand out, to show I've done my homework. I'd be more inclined to enjoy a query where the writer is both professional AND personal, perhaps showing they've read my blog by including a personal line like, "You just tweeted how interested you are in Gothic architecture, so I hope my Medieval setting appeals to you, I'm a big fan of architecture, too." Or something. But I'd never recommend to anyone to be this unprofessional. Most agencies ask you NOT to call them (because it feels like pestering). They also tend to want email submissions because paper sits around taking up space and it isn't very eco-friendly to send print sample chapter entries to only have them shredded. I can't imagine an agent is very likely (or even more likely) to read a 50-page submission on the subway than they are to open a tablet and read an e-submission. That's just ludicrous. Besides, wouldn't most professional agents clock out at 5pm and go home without dragging unsolicited queries around for the ride home? I mean...don't they have lives like everyone else?
This is stupidity if you ask me, and I like to think outside the box. Here's some advice I would give to people in my last job (as a recruiter and regarding their CVs/ applications/ resumes: "Your resume isn't the place to get cute. You might think a cookie font is interesting and shows how fun you are, but to me it is just annoying to have to read your cute-ass font and little clip art borders, and it comes off as completely unprofessional to someone who wants to scan and find the important items." That's how I feel about query letters. If the agent asks for a synopsis, it's because they believe a good synopsis is what they need to properly judge the concept of the story. If they ask for sample pages to accompany every query, it's important to follow the guidelines (only including 10 pages rather than a whole chapter, if that's what they ask for).
If someone can't follow a few simple requests, why would you even want to work with them? I wouldn't. I can't imagine agents, who notoriously are pressed for time and bombarded with unsolicited submissions around every turn, surely don't want to take on the sort of difficult client who needs every damn thing done special, the way they like it. That attitude won't get you noticed in a good way. It's a recipe for disaster.
Now...that being said, I think if you have an opportunity to meet agents in person and form a budding relationship through honest dialogue, I'd consider doing things a little more brazenly, perhaps. Maybe I'd mention something like, 'I'm so glad we met at Fantasy Con last month and I was so excited that you asked me to submit my book to you." or something. But I wouldn't even at that point pick up the phone and presume to sell myself by committing the writer equivalent of elbowing one's way to the front of the checkout counter, hoping to be served before the patient folks who waited their turns. Yeah, not at all a good way to be noticed. What ludicrous advice. Please, don't anyone buy into this. It's simply ridiculous.
MineOwnKing
Maester
Snap.
I was just getting ready for bed and now this shit for brains had to go ahead and wake the dragon.
Now my REM sleep is going to get all messed up and ruin my creativity for a week.
Poncy know it alls, like this bastard, really stick the bitter-chaw of elitism in my blue-collar craw.
Backroom high fives and knowing winks of college buddies and sons of sons of capitalist royalty, breeze through life on bullshit and half-assed mediocrity.
Have some self-respect and get your fingernails filthed by the blood and sweat of hard labor and the honest pride born of true talent.
Save your condescending crapola for selling penis pills and ginsu knives.
There are no open doors for the wretched.
Screw him.
I was just getting ready for bed and now this shit for brains had to go ahead and wake the dragon.
Now my REM sleep is going to get all messed up and ruin my creativity for a week.
Poncy know it alls, like this bastard, really stick the bitter-chaw of elitism in my blue-collar craw.
Backroom high fives and knowing winks of college buddies and sons of sons of capitalist royalty, breeze through life on bullshit and half-assed mediocrity.
Have some self-respect and get your fingernails filthed by the blood and sweat of hard labor and the honest pride born of true talent.
Save your condescending crapola for selling penis pills and ginsu knives.
There are no open doors for the wretched.
Screw him.
One more thing I thought of. The query letter's purpose is not just a synopsis and brief bio. It's also where you give the agent a glimpse of who you are, and I'm not referring to the bio. Following guidelines, shows you respect their wishes, and by extension, them. It shows that you're probably not a pretentious, self-centered d!ckwad, who thinks their manuscript is beyond reproach.
The query letter is the first line of defence against the nut jobs. It's a gate that's two-inches high, but some people have their noses too far in the air, so they trip.
The query letter is the first line of defence against the nut jobs. It's a gate that's two-inches high, but some people have their noses too far in the air, so they trip.
cupiscent
Sage
Hi-fives all round. Don't drink the snake-oil. 
Actually, from what I've read of agents talking about their working methods - indeed, Suzie Townsend said it explicitly on the New Leaf Literary tumblr recently - they do their agenting work 9-5 (submissions, revisions, royalty audits, what-have-you), and do most of their query-reading after hours (or in lunchbreaks: Amy Boggs at Maass regularly does "query lunches" on twitter, where she'll tweet about ten queries she's reading over lunch).
The point of this is not look how much I know about agents. The point of this is: agents work really damn hard. Don't make their lives harder.
Actually, from what I've read of agents talking about their working methods - indeed, Suzie Townsend said it explicitly on the New Leaf Literary tumblr recently - they do their agenting work 9-5 (submissions, revisions, royalty audits, what-have-you), and do most of their query-reading after hours (or in lunchbreaks: Amy Boggs at Maass regularly does "query lunches" on twitter, where she'll tweet about ten queries she's reading over lunch).
The point of this is not look how much I know about agents.
The point of this is: agents work really damn hard. Don't make their lives harder.
