Begone Than and Then, I proclaim Thaen!

[Ban]

Oh I was alright at French at school, comes in useful when I go to Paris, I like to pretend I’m French when I’m ordering my pan au chocolat…

Pain au chocolat The trouble is fluency. I can read French, and go through a basic conversation, but that's not fluency. I can't joke in French, or think in French, or ramble freely in French, and without any of those the language is a foreign country.

Somewhat impressive that we've strayed so far already.

 

[Finchbearer]

Well it turns out I’m crap at French after all!

Besides, having strayed so far, I think that is down to your problem being so unique. You might be ‘the only Dutch person in the village’ so to speak.

 

[Ban]

There are more of us on the site, of which another can be found in this very thread (how mysterious!) Returning to the subject of the thread, I think I can summarise that there's little enthusiasm for these alternative spellings, but also little outright opposition. Idiosyncratic spellings are more of a quaint to slightly annoying feature than an outright deal breaker. I do remember once wanting to write a story that would start in English and slowly turn into a creole tongue of my own making. It would be a generational post-apocalyptic book wherein the language reflected the evolution of English after the end. Horribly difficult to write, but I now remember it.

 

[Mad Swede]

There are more of us on the site, of which another can be found in this very thread (how mysterious!) Returning to the subject of the thread, I think I can summarise that there's little enthusiasm for these alternative spellings, but also little outright opposition. Idiosyncratic spellings are more of a quaint to slightly annoying feature than an outright deal breaker. I do remember once wanting to write a story that would start in English and slowly turn into a creole tongue of my own making. It would be a generational post-apocalyptic book wherein the language reflected the evolution of English after the end. Horribly difficult to write, but I now remember it.

In Swedish, as in English, then and than are two different words with different meanings and different useage. With that written, using old forms of words is OK, at least if the market you're writing for is prepared to accept such spellings or even expects such spellings. You also need to use such words (and any associated grammar and tenses) correctly, otherwise it just becomes ludicrous. I wouldn't use such spellings, but then my dyslexia makes writing hard enough as it is.

 

[Ban]

In Swedish, as in English, then and than are two different words with different meanings and different useage. With that written, using old forms of words is OK, at least if the market you're writing for is prepared to accept such spellings or even expects such spellings. You also need to use such words (and any associated grammar and tenses) correctly, otherwise it just becomes ludicrous. I wouldn't use such spellings, but then my dyslexia makes writing hard enough as it is.

In this case we´re speaking of a new spelling, not an old one, so there's no predetermined correct context. In all likelihood I won´t use my silly little "thaen" in writing, but I am a little surprised that people are making a case for the existence of "then" and "than." I suppose it makes sense if people attach different pronunciations to them (beyond the ability of my untrained ears to hear), but when written their usage is apparent by their context. Having them spelled differently is arbitrary.

 

[pmmg]

Then like Hen, Than like Man...

In speaking, I sometimes use these interchangeably, or pronounce them wrong, In writing, I make them right. And I am on my own question to replace because with cause, or sometimes cuz...

 

[TheKillerBs]

Well, I'm late to the party. What else is new... On the subject of then vs than, yes, it's true that if you read the words by themselves, then and than are pronounced differently. However, due to Germanic languages' ridiculous tendency to reduce any unstressed syllable, in natural speech they tend to sound the same way, with a schwa, rather than like hen or man.

 

[Prince of Spires]

The problem with foreign languages is not so much learning the correct words and rules, not even learning sayings. It's to do with the feeling of words (I have no better way to describe this). And I write that as a Dutch person writing English novels.

It's very obvious with swear words. I can learn which words are swear words, and I can learn what they mean. However, they don't evoke the same feeling for me as they do for a native speaker. I'll not give any specific examples (since I don't want this post reported). To me they are just words. I know they are bad, but I don't feel it. I would just use them in a conversation without giving it a second thought.

The same is the case here. To non-native speakers then and than are more or less interchangeable. They sound the same, they sort of have the same use, or at least don't look very wrong when you mix them up. However, to a native speaker, they are clearly very different, because they feel different. You'll instinctively know which one to use, simply because it feels right. Yes, you can make all sorts of grammar rules about which one to use when, but that's not how people use language. Grammar rules explain language after the fact, not before it.

All languages have this sort of this. In Dutch we have 2 words for "the" (de and het). There's some arbitrary rule about which to use when (I think it's to do with the gender of the word it refers to, however, no one in dutch actually knows the gender of words, since we don't use them for anything else, and they don't make sense anyway). This makes it difficult for a non-native to use the correct one. However, I just know which one to use, and if someone uses the wrong one, it feels wrong to me.

 

[Rexenm]

Than and then are better for girls, so they can get it wrong. They never made much sense to me. Time will tell.

 

[Finchbearer]

Mystery solved. Prince of Spires is the other Dutch person in the village!

 

[Prince of Spires]

Mystery solved. Prince of Spires is the other Dutch person in the village!

Wait, that was a mystery?

 

[Finchbearer]

I didn’t know you were Dutch!

 

[Ban]

The problem with foreign languages is not so much learning the correct words and rules, not even learning sayings. It's to do with the feeling of words (I have no better way to describe this). And I write that as a Dutch person writing English novels.

It's very obvious with swear words. I can learn which words are swear words, and I can learn what they mean. However, they don't evoke the same feeling for me as they do for a native speaker. I'll not give any specific examples (since I don't want this post reported). To me they are just words. I know they are bad, but I don't feel it. I would just use them in a conversation without giving it a second thought.

The same is the case here. To non-native speakers then and than are more or less interchangeable. They sound the same, they sort of have the same use, or at least don't look very wrong when you mix them up. However, to a native speaker, they are clearly very different, because they feel different. You'll instinctively know which one to use, simply because it feels right. Yes, you can make all sorts of grammar rules about which one to use when, but that's not how people use language. Grammar rules explain language after the fact, not before it.

All languages have this sort of this. In Dutch we have 2 words for "the" (de and het). There's some arbitrary rule about which to use when (I think it's to do with the gender of the word it refers to, however, no one in dutch actually knows the gender of words, since we don't use them for anything else, and they don't make sense anyway). This makes it difficult for a non-native to use the correct one. However, I just know which one to use, and if someone uses the wrong one, it feels wrong to me.

Great points. I hadn't thought of it that way, but indeed de and het are just as silly, if not sillier than "than" and "then", yet it feels wrong to hear the incorrect one used. There's no real reason why "huis" (house) has to be feminine, but it sounds oh so wrong if someone refers to one as "de huis." Same with any word. Why is a hond (dog) masculine? No clue, but "het hond" is a travesty.

 

[TheKillerBs]

The same is the case here. To non-native speakers then and than are more or less interchangeable. They sound the same, they sort of have the same use, or at least don't look very wrong when you mix them up. However, to a native speaker, they are clearly very different, because they feel different. You'll instinctively know which one to use, simply because it feels right. Yes, you can make all sorts of grammar rules about which one to use when, but that's not how people use language. Grammar rules explain language after the fact, not before it.

Can't feel all that different, cause I know a lot of native speakers what mix them up all the time, and the reason why is they take on weak forms (or reduce due to lack of stress) most of the time in natural speech.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I didn’t know you were Dutch!

I'm undercover... Don't tell anyone.

 

[Ban]

I'm undercover... Don't tell anyone.

And so the Great Dutch Conspiracy was discovered. Who else among us was secretly Dutch? Had they infiltrated all of Mythic Scribes?

 

[pmmg]

But how do you know we are not all secretly dutch?

 

[Ban]

But how do you know we are not all secretly dutch?

Exhibit A: "I am pretty sure we can absorb the Dutch language and Americanize it as well "

No Dutchman would ever speak such unbridled heresy

 

[pmmg]

Well...you got me thaen.....or maybe I was just deep undercover, and using an undercover Dutch to American translator...