What do we think of POV writing?

[Finchbearer]

Reading an article on why limiting POV to one character, say, per chapter, lacks the reader space and freedom. I’m currently writing between two POV’s - not strictly alternating, but firmly within one single POV for any given scene. Now I’m questioning everything.

 

[Prince of Spires]

It's all a mater of style, what you're trying to achieve, and personal preference.

The thing is that most readers wouldn't know a POV if it hit them in the face. The wouldn't notice if you cheat in one chapter a bit and tell us something a POV character can't know. I once got questions about the POV in a chapter, because it felt wrong to the reader. Reason was that I had named the chapter after a different character (which the POV character meets for the first time halfway through the chapter). They thought the POV would be of the new character, while it was completely in the original character's POV.

So don't worry about it too much.

It's also not as black and white as people make it out to be. It's a spectrum. You can go as deep into a character's head as you'd like. Some writers really get you all the way down into a single character's head, living and feeling the story through that character. Others use POV mainly as a vehicle for the story and don't go as deep. They're very different and have very different effects on the reader, even though technically they're both 3rd person limited.

At the same time, don't believe all the people who tell you 3rd person omniscient is dead. It's still out there, and it still gives great stories. It's just slightly less popular at the moment. And I mainly think that's a writer thing, where authors get told you must write in 3rd limited to get the most emotional reaction out of a reader, and we all just follow each other. It's also completely wrong.

So write your POV the way you like and as matches your writing style. Just be consistent within one book (or series). That would be the only rule to really follow I think.

 

[Finchbearer]

Well I am indeed writing close third limited (present tense) for this project - however with the caveat that I’m employing free-indirect style to convey interiority, and writing causal observational inner thoughts, rather than confessional…

But then, for example, say DH Lawrence, with his Chatterley, who just takes us around the houses, mostly Connie’s POV (Lady Chatterley) but then it might go into Clifford’s, or Mellors or Mrs Bolton, and then might veer off into a moralistic essay, so then I’m like, am I really being bold enough??

 

[pmmg]

I generally agree that head hopping is a poor POV style, but I also believe everything can be done well.

For myself, I try to have one POV per scene, and many scenes make up a part (I dont have chapters). Given that I tend to have 700-1000 words per scene, every 1000 words or so, I am switching POV's.

No one so far has complained about my POV style.

But, along the lines of everything can be done well, there is no reason to anguish over POV if your natural style lends itself to another direction.

What's that? A Vala now? Finch is rising through the ranks.

 

[Zilver]

Well don't question everything... Keep your eyes on the goal. Every PoV choice comes with pros and cons. & Only you know what your story needs. You've got this.

 

[Mad Swede]

My advice to you would be to use POV as appropriate to your writing. There are situations where a single POV per chapter is right (for example when characters are in different places) and there are situations where you can swap between POVs within a chapter or even a scene. In my experience the trickiest one to handle is different POVS within a scene (yes I have done this in some of the novels and in one of the short stories), as you risk taking the reader out of their immersion in the story. Fortunately my editor is good at helping me get the balance right.

 

[Karlin]

IN general, I don't conciously think about POV, or most of the technical things that come up in the forum. Like what voice and so on. I write. Call intuitively, or perhaps sloppily- whatever. If something seems awkward or confusing, I usually catch it myself after I've written it. If I miss it, my editor will point it out.

 

[Finchbearer]

I’m very much working without an editor Karlin, but appreciate the viewpoint. I’m consciously working on craft - so I suppose I wanted to seriously discuss craft choice when it comes to POV. Of the great books I’ve read, the writing often (but not always) appears effortless on the page. But that’s just the point. You don’t necessarily see the level of skill behind the page because that’s exactly as it should be.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

We write Deep 3rd Person with 7 to 9 POV's or more. Their internal narrative serves as the reader's keyhole into the world. There are a lot of people who would argue that we absolutely cannot head hop inside a chapter with this much investment in one perspective.

I say hold my hurley.

Head hopping is just one tool in our vast and varied toolboxes. I use it. It's standard operating procedure for Romance. It all depends on your execution as to if you can pull it off. Clarity is key, here.

This is a little long, but it's what I'm talking about.

~~~

Jonathan bounced Jeremy’s head once on the thickly carpeted floor and Jeremy saw him frown. He really needed a harder surface to do it right. He laughed at the thought, the sound a little too high. His breath rattled a bit on the inhale.

Jonathan leaned back a little, and Jeremy felt, more than heard, a creaking in his chest. A broken rib, maybe? It wouldn’t be the first time. His father fiddled with the clove cigarette, smoke still rising from the tip like a delicate white exclamation. “Between the sex, the drugs—the blatant stupidity—one lawsuit, one news story, and all I have built will be destroyed.” His father looked down at him, eyes dark with carefully controlled rage. “I am too close, now, to risk you destroying all with your antics. I have worked too hard, for too long...”

Jeremy narrowed his half-mad eyes. Close? “Close to what?”

Jonathan smiled, and it was humorless. “Oh, no, my boy. You’re not in a position to question me.” He tightened his grip on Jeremy’s hair and pressed the side of his face to the carpet. “All I want from you are promises, and apologies.” Jonathan took the little cigarette between his lips. The scent of burning cloves grew stronger as his breath coaxed the ember hotter and brighter. “And this time, you will mean every… single… word.”

Jeremy’s eyes widened with the first blossoming of true fear.

Aodhán heard a scream as he touched the office door and looked behind him to the cube farm. No heads popped up over the fabric walls in fear and curiosity, which was a good thing. Apparently, the boy had angered his father again. He waited patiently until the sound died away and slipped quickly into the office, shutting the door quietly before another scream escaped into the open behind him. No need to frighten the employees on a Friday. He stepped closer and watched Jonathan press the branding tip of a tiny cigarette into his son’s cheek. Jeremy let out another shriek and writhed in pain against his father’s hold, to no avail. Aodhán waited for the noise to dissipate before he cleared his throat. “Excuse me, Jonathan?”

Jonathan shifted his weight to settle it all onto his son’s chest and looked up at Aodhán. “Good morning, Aodhán,” he said pleasantly as Jeremy struggled to breathe beneath him. “How are you today?”

Aodhán thought a moment and gave him a small smile. “Intrigued, actually.”

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

My style is very mild head hopping.
I've been working on doing it only when it's "needed" for added context (IE the scene's focus is on a central character not the main POV) but I feel like anything can be done tactfully if practiced enough.

 

[skip.knox]

Do what's right for your story.

Great advice except for when you aren't at all sure of what is right for the story.

But it's advice that can lead to good practice. You have to figure it out for yourself, so how might you go about doing that? I can think of a couple of approaches, and at least one more has already been offered (hire an editor). I'm interested to hear what Finchbearer has to say on this.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I’m consciously working on craft - so I suppose I wanted to seriously discuss craft choice when it comes to POV. Of the great books I’ve read, the writing often (but not always) appears effortless on the page. But that’s just the point. You don’t necessarily see the level of skill behind the page because that’s exactly as it should be.

There are two things worth mentioning here. The first is that conciously working on craft is the best way to improve. Think about what you're doing and why. A bit of research here helps before you set out. Different viewpoints achieve and enable different things. If you know what they are, you can achieve your effect better.

For instance, a deep POV, such as a strict 3rd limited or first person, can be very intimate. We're very much experiencing the story through one character (or a few) and it can make us feel very attached to that character. The downside is that you're very much stuck to a couple of characters. You can't show us what the character doesn't know. You can't build suspense by having a bomb hidden under the table that the character doesn't know about. That sort of thing.

Omniscient can achieve a more epic scale because you can show us the whole world. The battles in The Lord of the Rings work because we can zoom out to show the whole battle, before zooming back in and focusing on a particular character. That's harder to pull of in 3rd limited.

The other thing worth mentioning is the comment about the writing appearing effortless. Always remember when reading a finished work that you can't see the work that went into it. And never compare someone's final draft to your first draft. Just looking at my own writing, for my latest novel, I don't think a single sentence remained unchanged between first and last draft. I added and removed whole chapters, changed other completely, and polished the thing multiple times. The difference is huge. Even just how a character reads on the page and how distinct he looks. That's often something that only comes out in later drafts.

What's that? A Vala now? Finch is rising through the ranks.

Maybe I should find myself another 330 posts...

 

[Finchbearer]

Interested in what I have to say on hiring an editor? I’m not at the stage skip.knox that would be if my work was good enough to be invested in, so I’ll let you know if I ever get to that stage. Just hiring an editor when I’m no where near ready would probably be premature.

 

[Finchbearer]

~~~

Jonathan bounced Jeremy’s head once on the thickly carpeted floor and Jeremy saw him frown. He really needed a harder surface to do it right. He laughed at the thought, the sound a little too high. His breath rattled a bit on the inhale.

Jonathan leaned back a little, and Jeremy felt, more than heard, a creaking in his chest. A broken rib, maybe? It wouldn’t be the first time. His father fiddled with the clove cigarette, smoke still rising from the tip like a delicate white exclamation. “Between the sex, the drugs—the blatant stupidity—one lawsuit, one news story, and all I have built will be destroyed.” His father looked down at him, eyes dark with carefully controlled rage. “I am too close, now, to risk you destroying all with your antics. I have worked too hard, for too long...”

Jeremy narrowed his half-mad eyes. Close? “Close to what?”

Jonathan smiled, and it was humorless. “Oh, no, my boy. You’re not in a position to question me.” He tightened his grip on Jeremy’s hair and pressed the side of his face to the carpet. “All I want from you are promises, and apologies.” Jonathan took the little cigarette between his lips. The scent of burning cloves grew stronger as his breath coaxed the ember hotter and brighter. “And this time, you will mean every… single… word.”

Jeremy’s eyes widened with the first blossoming of true fear.

Aodhán heard a scream as he touched the office door and looked behind him to the cube farm. No heads popped up over the fabric walls in fear and curiosity, which was a good thing. Apparently, the boy had angered his father again. He waited patiently until the sound died away and slipped quickly into the office, shutting the door quietly before another scream escaped into the open behind him. No need to frighten the employees on a Friday. He stepped closer and watched Jonathan press the branding tip of a tiny cigarette into his son’s cheek. Jeremy let out another shriek and writhed in pain against his father’s hold, to no avail. Aodhán waited for the noise to dissipate before he cleared his throat. “Excuse me, Jonathan?”

Jonathan shifted his weight to settle it all onto his son’s chest and looked up at Aodhán. “Good morning, Aodhán,” he said pleasantly as Jeremy struggled to breathe beneath him. “How are you today?”

Aodhán thought a moment and gave him a small smile. “Intrigued, actually.”

Okay, this is a cool example because I think it’s doing something advanced.

First of all, you shift the perspective within what feels like the middle of chapter or the middle of a scene, but it doesn’t feel like a ‘head hop’ in a breaking the reader’s attention way - or at least my attention doesn’t break abruptly from Jeremy - Aodhán.

Secondly the most complex thing it’s doing is - I think - is re-framing the violence, from visceral, experienced and almost embodied to casual, normalised. The POV shift in this case provides contrast and context to the world.

As an aside the clove cigarette sounds oddly appealing.

Do you use this technique throughout to give similar effects, how consciously crafted is it?

In my work, I’m using singular POV - but using a mixture of primarily free-indirect, interior thought (observational) and also using POV for exposition. So perhaps I’m making things more complicated than they need to be, but with the caveat that if I used an unstable focal lens, some of the scenes wouldn’t work. You actually zoom in and out focally which I would be tempted to tighten.

Perhaps I should repeat the scene in three or four different POV modes.

 

[Finchbearer]

Citing Lady Chatterley would make me sound as though I’m writing literary romance - I’m not - it was the article that cited it, but it is a good example of where allowing the POV’s to shift say mid-scene can add freedom of the reader.

 

[The Dark One]

I mostly use 1st person but not exclusively.

Also, I occasionally cheat by using third when switching to scenes where the MC is not present.

That's a really effective way of giving info to the reader which the MC doesn't have.

 

[Finchbearer]

I mostly use 1st person but not exclusively.

Also, I occasionally cheat by using third when switching to scenes where the MC is not present.

That's a really effective way of giving info to the reader which the MC doesn't have.

Ah, you make it sound easy dark one.