• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

What is the role of magic in your world?

Fnord

Troubadour
I don't think that idea could work. A world composed entirely of magicians is just a tad too farfetched...even for fantasy. You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive. They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power. I reckon if someone managaed to complete a novel like this, it would flop. But hey, that's just me.

Yeah, it would be certainly *difficult* to conceptualize, let alone write. But there are some elements in literature (usually more of the science fiction variety I think) that had societies where all the members had certain powers. After all, to pretty much every other type of creature on our planet, the ability to use tools is pretty exceptional. The introduction of opposable thumbs gave us a huge advantage over all the other creatures of the planet (and beating the other apes to the punch). Imagine a world where us plain old humans were beaten to the metaphysical punch by some other type of being.

I would imagine a post-scarcity world would spend a great deal of its time trying to push the boundaries of their physical constraints more than anything. When you stop having to worry about procuring food, shelter, material goods, or even energy sources, what would creatures pursue? I imagine, for us, we'd definitely push outward into space and exploration, which is why this concept is probably closer to the domain of sci-fi than fantasy, though it would certainly contain elements of both. And regardless of the availability of your every want, time is still a (relatively) scarce resource.

There are plenty of approaches that could be pushed, but it'd definitely require a certain conceptual and literary finesse.
 

Amanita

Maester
I suppose my main point is that of scarcity and cost.
Ah, have you been doing something economics-related? You’re definitely right that there’s no reason to do things any other way if they can easily be done with magic.

Most of the problems mainly apply to forms of magic that actually work with a swish of a wand or saying one word. With such concepts it’s really hard to do anything interesting if too many people have it. (I’m not even sure if anything interesting can be done with one person having it.)
But why should healing magic for example be so much easier to do than conventional medicine? I’ve stumbled over concepts for example, where healers have to take the patient’s pain upon themselves if they want to ease it. Not necessarily easier than giving an injection. Often magic is a substitute for the tools usually used to complete a task.

I’ve tried to come up with magic that has its place within our scientific rules but I’ve always stood before dead ends at some point.
Taking the “life force”-example. What is life force supposed to be looked at in a scientific way. And what does the magic do? Make the cells age more quickly? Do the chemical reactions happening there fuel the magic. But why can’t something similar be achieved by some other means?
Or the “magic as energy” concepts. If magic is energy it has to come from somewhere. It has to have a source. But how did the magical energy get into the source? Where did it come from? Energy never just turns up out of nowhere.
In the end my conclusion has always been that magic, at least the magic used in fantasy stories can’t reasonable exist within the scientific laws or it would do so.
That’s why I’ve finally ended up with magic as third concept besides matter and energy following its own laws.

You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive.
Yes, certainly. But I think you always have to do this, if you don’t want to have god-like characters who can do everything with their will alone. This would make it really difficult to have a story.

They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power.
Oh, not necessarily. In my world, everyone having elemental powers wouldn’t make that much of a difference in this aspect. Those likely to tear each other apart for lust of power already tend to get magic anyway. ;)
 
Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not! ;)
 

Fnord

Troubadour
Ah, have you been doing something economics-related?

Haha, my whole life is economics-related. It's my field! :D

And so far as fantasy writing is concerned, it can be a boon and a curse. Since economists use elaborate theoretical econometric models to try and understand and find patterns in market behavior, it's very easy for me to envision complex trade systems, various market, political, and social behaviors that result from particular forces, and lots of other systems in a "controlled" environment (since I'm writing the environment). But, at the same time, it's *very* easy for my mind to step outside the fantasy environment and try to to be too analytical about how things like magic affect how a society would respond to those elements.

Most of the problems mainly apply to forms of magic that actually work with a swish of a wand or saying one word. With such concepts it’s really hard to do anything interesting if too many people have it. (I’m not even sure if anything interesting can be done with one person having it.)
But why should healing magic for example be so much easier to do than conventional medicine? I’ve stumbled over concepts for example, where healers have to take the patient’s pain upon themselves if they want to ease it. Not necessarily easier than giving an injection. Often magic is a substitute for the tools usually used to complete a task.

And that would definitely fall under a "cost". Our behaviors, in general and when rational, tend to follow the path of least resistance. If it's easier to develop medicine than to heal someone magically, we'll tend toward the easier of those paths. But one could also see the potential conflicts that would arise too in such a world. For example, even today we have illnesses like cancer that *still* can't be systematically cured. The path of least resistance in this case might still be the use of magic to cure this particular ailment, and if the healer has to take the cancer themselves, it's pretty easy to envision exceptionally self-sacrificial healers doing so if it was to save someone they very much cared about. Or, in a more sinister situation, a desperate or unscrupulous person using force to make a healer cure the ailment. Either way, an element of cost (and thus conflict) is introduced. But without such a limitation, the mundane quickly becomes even more mundane and even woefully tedious.

I’ve tried to come up with magic that has its place within our scientific rules but I’ve always stood before dead ends at some point.
Taking the “life force”-example. What is life force supposed to be looked at in a scientific way. And what does the magic do? Make the cells age more quickly? Do the chemical reactions happening there fuel the magic. But why can’t something similar be achieved by some other means?
Or the “magic as energy” concepts. If magic is energy it has to come from somewhere. It has to have a source. But how did the magical energy get into the source? Where did it come from? Energy never just turns up out of nowhere.
In the end my conclusion has always been that magic, at least the magic used in fantasy stories can’t reasonable exist within the scientific laws or it would do so.
That’s why I’ve finally ended up with magic as third concept besides matter and energy following its own laws.

Yeah, that's definitely an ambitious undertaking and it would probably make *my* head explode, so I applaud the effort to reconcile magical forces with physical ones. And the First Law of Thermodynamics is a good thing to keep in mind; otherwise you start having to rewrite the laws of physics to make it "work". Of course, magical force could simply be wedged in there with the four forces we do understand (gravity, electromagnetic force, weak nuclear force, and strong nuclear force) or be offshoots, depending on how deep you want to delve.

And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.

Maybe I'm less cynical, but I don't think this would necessarily be the case. If you look at how "power" is measured now (status and wealth), while there are some standout members of society both historical and modern that would follow this idea of corruption and power, the vast majority of actors in our system with wealth or prestige aren't at the throats of others. And if everyone has access to magical power, than you have an interesting social equalizer anyway since in a high-magic world "wealth" is not likely to be measured in purely material terms. It could quite possibly be the ultimate egalitarian society. Unless people can somehow limit the power of others--and do it on a large scale--it would be difficult for power hierarchies to really gain a foothold in such a society. Again, I agree this would be a very difficult concept to work with in a fictional story and keep it interesting, but I don't necessarily think magic--especially in total abundance--would make people even more violent toward one another. After all, nearly every major war or conflict in history was in large part over access to economic resources (religion, to me, has always seemed to just have been a catalyst toward this end). If magic (and thus resources themselves) are abundant and people are truly equal in this regard, it seems difficult that one person or a handful of them could easily gain influence over others.
 

Ophiucha

Auror
I don't think that idea could work. A world composed entirely of magicians is just a tad too farfetched...even for fantasy. You'd have to write some major barriers into the magic system or the world simply could not survive. They'd tear each other apart in lust of more power. I reckon if someone managaed to complete a novel like this, it would flop. But hey, that's just me.

I don't think that is the case, simply because everyone would be working with or against one another, inherently. It would put us on the same grounds as magic users, in many ways. A world where every man has magic is not unlike ours, where every man has muscle and mind, and can work his fields or else kill a man for his crop. If everyone has magic, and magic is nigh limitless, we would simply balance one another out. For every man who destroys the town in a blaze of fire, another would be there to rebuild the homes and hose down the flames. A world where everyone is magical removes that element of power near entirely. It is perhaps entirely more grandiose than man's simple abilities to cut and hoe and dig, but if it is just as accessible, it wouldn't be held in such high regard. Why would people fight one another for power if magic is so accessible? Men would fight, of course. They'd fight over the origin of magic, they'd fight over land, they'd fight over everything. But they would fight in our world, as well.

Add in a few very light limitations - say you could only learn to grow crops or heal wounds - the world would, most likely, develop in a way not dissimilar from ours. You trade an acre of corn to treat a stab wound, or whatever.
 
Last edited:

Fnord

Troubadour
Add in a few very light limitations - say you could only learn to grow crops or heal wounds - the world would, most likely, develop in a way not dissimilar from ours. You trade an acre of corn to treat a stab wound, or whatever.

Ooooo, I like this. Specialization and trade. A material economy would be replaced with a magical one!
 

Derin

Troubadour
Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not! ;)

Why?

Isn't that like saying that in this world, people are always tearing each other apart for physical dominance? There's no reason that universally present magical ability should create any more problems than universally present intelligence, or ability to physically manipulate objects.

Of course, the rules behind how the magic works would have to be very well thought out beforehand to make this work, because they'd affect everything.

And that would definitely fall under a "cost". Our behaviors, in general and when rational, tend to follow the path of least resistance. If it's easier to develop medicine than to heal someone magically, we'll tend toward the easier of those paths. But one could also see the potential conflicts that would arise too in such a world. For example, even today we have illnesses like cancer that *still* can't be systematically cured. The path of least resistance in this case might still be the use of magic to cure this particular ailment, and if the healer has to take the cancer themselves, it's pretty easy to envision exceptionally self-sacrificial healers doing so if it was to save someone they very much cared about. Or, in a more sinister situation, a desperate or unscrupulous person using force to make a healer cure the ailment. Either way, an element of cost (and thus conflict) is introduced. But without such a limitation, the mundane quickly becomes even more mundane and even woefully tedious.

I like to include a high cancer risk as one of the effects of magical healing. You get healed, there's a slight chance that some of your cells might... just not stop healing.



My current work doesn't have magic usable by humans. A couple of the races do have magic (dragon shapeshifters, for example), and it's an inherent characteristic of their species. There are a lot of humans who think they have magic, though; mystics treat wounds with "magical" herbs and rituals, and people might carry supposed protective charms.
 
Last edited:
The magic in my world is known of, but very few people can actually use it. Some people have inherent gifts, like an accelerated growth rate, extremely fast reflexes, enhanced senses and minor telepathy, but this magic is generally minor and unfocused, leading to painful lives for some. Those with magic, whether inherent or otherwise, can usually be trained to some degree if a trained mage is found, but there are hundreds of potential mages with too little power to attract a teacher, but enough that they are worth teaching. The main character of my series is an anomaly. He has a huge potential for magic, and an inherent gift that's powerful enough to act as a deus ex machina, but for some reason both of these have been blocked off. This will become important during the book/s. (<That was intentional. I don't know whether I'll write one or more at the moment. I've just worked on the world so far.)
So basically, magic is there, and it can be useful for normal people, but it is very rare.
 

SeverinR

Vala
Magic is common place.
Mages, clerics & psionists are a minority individually, but magic using people are still common.

Magic is neccesarily limited or the world would be ruled by a powerful mage.

Mage magic requires intense study, thus humans are less likely to be mages. Longer lived beings are more likely.

Religious magic-requires devotion to ones god, and advancement in this magic requires satisfying the Gods requirements and sacrifices.(good sacrifices and bad depending on the god in question)

Psi magic- born with the gift, lower inteligent humanoids are less likely to have the gift. Mental magic is quickest of all magic.
Mental healing is the weakest for humanoids and strongest in Dragons and demons that Psi-heal. relating to their psi energy stores.

Apprenticeship is possible with all forms of magic, and most have schools.
 

Hans

Sage
Have you defined how magic works in your fictional world? Is it something forbidden and feared? Or is it a part of daily life?
When I create a magic system most often the first thing is how to limit it. I normally give the everyday people a very good reason not to use magic. Which also limits the suitability of magic for economic purposes.

Currently I have two worlds I work on.
The first one was destroyed by magic. Magic is a natural power. I have not yet invented some formulas on the exact way to transform magic power into other powers. But I have alternate thermodynamic laws. So there are natural magic effects which tend to be either small (floating pebbles) or devastating. Most people are afraid of magic because they know magic mainly from the battlefields and nearly everyone has lost loved ones to the effects of magic.
Magic is not forbidden. The people are more concerned with surviving the aftermath of the big war than with forbidding natural powers. There would be no organization to enforce such laws anyway.

The second world I tried to keep pretty low magic. Within the limits of my creativity. Somehow I always seem to converge towards magic. One of the basic rules of the world concept is: Magic is either dangerous or inefficient.
A Shaman could banish the fire ghosts from a burning house. That would result in a little less water needed for extinguishing the fire. Probably less water than he could carry while doing the banishment.
Ir a daemonologist could summon an ice daemon. Sacrificing all inhabitants of the house in the process and then some. With a good chance that during the next winter no one in that area would be able to ignite any fire during the next winter.
There is some trade with magic items. Most people just want to be sure that the rituals necessary to create these have been done far away.
 
Last edited:
Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not! ;)

I don't see why they'd tear each other apart any more than they people do nowadays. Exampligratas, America. Every citizen has the right to bear arms, is there there any civilisation? the answer there, is yes. Beucase it's not a heady, unique advantage you have, and the people who come to stop you have bigger ones. the arms race would be at the same level, because (if magic was purely millitary) it'd be the same as a gun. with a little added convinience

and no, I doubt I'd do some 'nasty' deed to improve my magical abilites. I'd practice, but I'd feel a fool sacrficing someone whislt wearing a bathrobe and a traffic cone :p
 

Helbrecht

Minstrel
In one of the setting's I'm working on (the more "traditional" medieval-esque of the two, actually), magic doesn't exist, or at least isn't in mortal hands.

In the other, an urban fantasy/steampunky thing set in a very alternate-history Victorian London, the same could be said, but in a different sense. Magic certainly does exist, but the official line is that it doesn't. The weird psuedo-vampires and other supernatural creatures that are running the country are more than capable of using it, but they use it in innate and subtle ways that are passed off as works of either high art or science. Most notably, magic is used in harmony with technology, but given that the only people who actually know how this tech works are the upper classes (i.e. the magical folk), nobody knows about this. Discovery of magic's usage in technology and attempts to put magic into the hands of mortals are going to be plot threads when I finally get around to writing the book.
 

AParker

Acolyte
I used to write magic as a 'one more tool,' type thing, but lately I'm leaning more towards the sort of inherently magical world- somewhere between Grimm's fairy tales and Lovecraft if that makes any sense.
 
I don't see why they'd tear each other apart any more than they people do nowadays. Exampligratas, America. Every citizen has the right to bear arms, is there there any civilisation? the answer there, is yes. Beucase it's not a heady, unique advantage you have, and the people who come to stop you have bigger ones. the arms race would be at the same level, because (if magic was purely millitary) it'd be the same as a gun. with a little added convinience
Every citizen has the right to bear arms?? Firstly, you need a permit and secondly if you fire a shot off without cause, you're screwed. And not everyone does carry a weapon any way, but if EVERYONE had magic, even a petty criminal could cause a lot of damage. Even schoolyard fights would become a lot more dangerous. Your point would be valid if every single person in the world did walk around with shotguns and RPG's hoisted on the backs, but the simple fact is, they don't, and therefore your argument becomes a little silly. I really don't think it could be done to a good enough standard for me to sit through and read, not without it feeling unrealistic (even though it obviously isn't, but you get what I mean), because at the end of the day, people are cruel, and it would only take one act of cruelty in such a world to create possibly catastrophic pain.
 
Off topic, but the 2nd Amendment (right to bear arms for those of you not from the US) actually has a pretty narrow focus. You can lose that right for even non-violent offenses, such as driving under the influence. Getting a permit even if you qualify is time consuming and expensive, and TRW is right; discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a residence without cause i.e. someone trying to kill you, screws you hardcore.

Fun fact, in the state of Massachusetts, you can't shoot someone who is trying to kill you if you have any means of escaping. For instance, if you shoot them on the third floor in a room that has a window and no other doors but the one they are blocking, you can be prosecuted for up to murder in the second degree. Not likely to happen, but it's possible. And in this bought-off corruption laden government, I wouldn't be surprised in the least.
 
In my world, magic exists but the ability to use it is a genetic trait that crops up when the mix is just right, but can be passed from parents to children.

The magic follows loose rules of physics but I need to read more about quantum entanglement so I can better define my rules. There are unexplained ways for converting matter to energy with just the mind. That also has a caloric cost much like physical exercise.
 
Well, I stick with what I wrote. I don't think this idea could be done, or at least, done well.
The world would be fun and interesting if designed to be a bedtime story to tell todlers or kids, but as a serious and worthy fantasy novel, it just couldn't work. And I still think the inhabitants of said world would tear each other apart.
I know if I were born into this world, I would very likely do some nasty deed or other to gain more promise in my magical abilities...and don't try and deny it saying you would not! ;)

I completely disagree. The problem is not whether the world could survive, it is where do the societal tensions actually come from? If something does not develop to deal with the potential dangers of universal and/or unlimited magic, the society would never evolve beyond the most primitive culture. So, that's where the world building would come in. Does lack of scarcity also mean universal equality in magical ability? Did society develop a method of preventing the most powerful mage from taking over the world. Is there good magic and bad magic, i.e. acceptable v. taboo? Is there a way to strip someone of his/her magical ability as a punishment for abusing magic? Does the magic make people immortal? No-scarcity and immortality is very different proposition from no-scarcity among mortals. In either case, how would the societal attitude be regarding marriage and/or procreation?
 
The magic follows loose rules of physics but I need to read more about quantum entanglement so I can better define my rules.

This might help you understand, but you would need to be very careful about over-explaining to the reader.

There are unexplained ways for converting matter to energy with just the mind. That also has a caloric cost much like physical exercise.

Neat, these types of costs are really good for creating tension.
 
James Chandler said:
This might help you understand, but you would need to be very careful about over-explaining to the reader.

Neat, these types of costs are really good for creating tension.

I don't plan on explaining my physics to the reader directly, just so I understand and to maintain internal consistency.
 
Top