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a question from other people
- Thread starter zazeron
- Start date
Greed
Acolyte
There are those characters that live beyond their time: such as comic book characters like Batman, Superman and Spiderman. Also Sherlock and Watson. James Bond. The heroes that can be reshaped to various periods. The remakes, those characters that we love to watch relive similar situations again and again and again. Perhaps the thing that makes these timeless is their appeal to certain archetypal roles; they are ideal heroes, they are ideal anti-heroes, they are flawed genius'.
Are stories that we think of as timeless harking back to the old myths and fables that seem to echo throughout human culture?
If there is a story that captures a particular cultural epoch then it will seem dated eventually. Dickens is dated in one way; because he so perfectly captures Victorian Britain as a culture, but he is also timeless in that he uses this context as the colours with which to paint his moral fables which seem to speak beyond any particular period.
Also some things may seem dated but then accumulate relevance as time goes on. Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, for example. I'm sure that whilst he was writing he thought that he was particularly addressing the culture he was living in. And in 1953 the idea that we would all walk around listening only to the things which our sea-shells (headphones) told us rather than talk to each other and that we would all have massive screens in every room displaying the fatuous lives of fictional people rather than be engaged with our own lives must have felt like a satire specific to that period. But as time rolled steadily on the novel took on new relevance and people found new strategies of definition and context through reading it. And it remains as important as before: so seemingly 'timeless'! I don't think Bradbury, or anyone else, could have done this on purpose. I think that to write something deemed as 'timeless' you need to be engaged in human culture and have the blessing of astute genius in your ideas and clarity in expression.
/My thoughts.
Are stories that we think of as timeless harking back to the old myths and fables that seem to echo throughout human culture?
If there is a story that captures a particular cultural epoch then it will seem dated eventually. Dickens is dated in one way; because he so perfectly captures Victorian Britain as a culture, but he is also timeless in that he uses this context as the colours with which to paint his moral fables which seem to speak beyond any particular period.
Also some things may seem dated but then accumulate relevance as time goes on. Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, for example. I'm sure that whilst he was writing he thought that he was particularly addressing the culture he was living in. And in 1953 the idea that we would all walk around listening only to the things which our sea-shells (headphones) told us rather than talk to each other and that we would all have massive screens in every room displaying the fatuous lives of fictional people rather than be engaged with our own lives must have felt like a satire specific to that period. But as time rolled steadily on the novel took on new relevance and people found new strategies of definition and context through reading it. And it remains as important as before: so seemingly 'timeless'! I don't think Bradbury, or anyone else, could have done this on purpose. I think that to write something deemed as 'timeless' you need to be engaged in human culture and have the blessing of astute genius in your ideas and clarity in expression.
/My thoughts.
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Feo Takahari
Auror
I don't think timelessness is a thing in and of itself. Rather, there exist things that cause a story to be dated, and if a story doesn't have those, it's timeless.
To give one example of what I mean, I think The Pardoner's Tale holds up pretty well if you trim some of the narrative frills. There really isn't anything about the tale that marks it as timeless--it has a moral that's still relevant today, but it's a pretty obvious moral. On the other hand, nothing about it forces it to only function in one time and place. As my literature teacher observed, you could just as easily tell the same story about crackheads in San Francisco.
To give one example of what I mean, I think The Pardoner's Tale holds up pretty well if you trim some of the narrative frills. There really isn't anything about the tale that marks it as timeless--it has a moral that's still relevant today, but it's a pretty obvious moral. On the other hand, nothing about it forces it to only function in one time and place. As my literature teacher observed, you could just as easily tell the same story about crackheads in San Francisco.
psychotick
Auror
Hi,
Timelessness to me revolves mainly around the story. Settings and world build's change as time passes. So you could argue that Romeo and Juliet is dated by it's world - which of course it is. But then it got remade as West Side Story, showing that the underlying story still holds.
Having said that even stories can date, simply because the world we live in makes them impossible. For Romeo and Juliet imagine if in the next ten years or so internet policing etc became so effective that crime families / organizations could no longer exist. Then that tale would fast run out of meaning for the following generations.
Strangely though some stories actually become more relevant as the years pass. More appropo. Consider the Island of Doctor Moreau. In it's time it was a simple horror about a scientist playing God. But in 2014 with the advent of genetic engineering etc, what seemed then like a completely fanciful tale becomes almost realistic.
Cheers, Greg.
Timelessness to me revolves mainly around the story. Settings and world build's change as time passes. So you could argue that Romeo and Juliet is dated by it's world - which of course it is. But then it got remade as West Side Story, showing that the underlying story still holds.
Having said that even stories can date, simply because the world we live in makes them impossible. For Romeo and Juliet imagine if in the next ten years or so internet policing etc became so effective that crime families / organizations could no longer exist. Then that tale would fast run out of meaning for the following generations.
Strangely though some stories actually become more relevant as the years pass. More appropo. Consider the Island of Doctor Moreau. In it's time it was a simple horror about a scientist playing God. But in 2014 with the advent of genetic engineering etc, what seemed then like a completely fanciful tale becomes almost realistic.
Cheers, Greg.
Ophiucha
Auror
Stories, definitely. Characters lack timelessness due to fluctuating social norms and morality - consider how most of the Greek epics deal greatly with heroes falling to their hubris (pride), when modern heroes are usually praised for that particular sin. An ambiguous setting lends itself more easily to a long lifespan, but eventually it will become distant. But stories can be timeless, or at least can last as long as we've had as a species of storytellers. There are certain activities and feelings that are universal, and stories that deal with those can be transposed to any era or location and maintain their core value.
Not all of them, though. See: any modern horror movie struggling to deal with the prevalence of cell phones.
Not all of them, though. See: any modern horror movie struggling to deal with the prevalence of cell phones.
I wouldn't go that far. Romeo and Juliet very recently was remade in the zombie flick Warm Bodies. We will always find context for our stories.
TWErvin2
Auror
I'll just add that to make something 'timeless' try to avoid including specific items, such as politicians (President George Bush or President Obama or Prime Minister Tony Blair or Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher) or a lot of topical Pop Culture references that may date a piece (TV Shows or Musical Artists).
Of course, nostalgic references could easily work. And even what I said above could work, it just might date a piece.
Sure, what I talked about may not apply to most fantasy pieces, but Urban Fantasy, or fantasy set in a modern day, for example, could be affected.
Of course, nostalgic references could easily work. And even what I said above could work, it just might date a piece.
Sure, what I talked about may not apply to most fantasy pieces, but Urban Fantasy, or fantasy set in a modern day, for example, could be affected.
