Hey so our production team talked about this...

[Naruzeldamaster]

"Your story would sell 5 times better if you completely altered X or Y character and totally changed this or that Scene"

What do you do when confronted by a publisher with this kind of statement?
Look, if a publisher's advise is more on the grammar side, I'm willing to bend an ear.
But personally I'm not about to alter major scenes (entirely) just so that the publisher can line their pockets a bit more.

That being said, if I want to add X or Y type of character, I'll add them to MY story and hopefully depict them appropriately so that readers enjoy them.
But I'm not about to add this random character who has zero bearing on the plot just because it appeals to a certain demographic. That kinda thing is already frowned upon in the film industry and I wouldn't want my first book to be frowned on the same way.

 

[CupofJoe]

I'd ask them to show you their reasoning.
They may [or may not] be right.
It could be that there is a beat or tone in the writing that needs to be fixed and as writers we are too involved to see it.
I am most worried about the word "sell"
Surely, if only to stroke a writer's ego it should "increase your readership five-fold"...

 

[Prince of Spires]

Depends on the size of the cheque attached to changing it...

To be fair to the publisher though, they're not just lining their own pockets, they're also doing that with yours. If you sell 5 times as much, you earn 5 times as much.

As for the actual request, it's hard to judge how reasonable it is without knowing the story and the exact suggestion. If they think the change would improve the story, then it's definitely worth considering. As a writer you can be too close to the story to see what's missing. And I assume the people making this suggestion are professionals and they know what they're doing. Giving advice from professionals serious consideration is always a good thing, even if you end up not taking it. Or you could find a different way of achieving the same thing they're suggesting.

If the suggestion really only is to add a token character (or similar) to be able to market the book to certain audiences without actually adding anything to the story (or even by detracting from it), then it depends on the cost of not doing the change and your artistic integrity. That's a question only you can answer. If not making this change would mean you don't get the publishing deal, then that is very different from simply selling fewer copies. And then it also matters if you are really set on this deal (and how good it is), or if it's just a nice to have but you would just as easily indie-publish.

Added to this is that publishing is a small world. If you want to be a career trad-published author, then you don't want to get a name as someone who never takes suggestions and is hard to work with. So you could refuse this suggestion, but depending on who made the suggestion and how it's framed, it could also mean you never get a publishing deal again.

All in all, too many variable to give a definitive answer. But I would suggest you at least give it an honest and serious consideration, assuming the editor is trying to make your book the best it can be. That doesn't mean you should take it. Just that you consider it.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Depends on the size of the cheque attached to changing it...

To be fair to the publisher though, they're not just lining their own pockets, they're also doing that with yours. If you sell 5 times as much, you earn 5 times as much.

As for the actual request, it's hard to judge how reasonable it is without knowing the story and the exact suggestion. If they think the change would improve the story, then it's definitely worth considering. As a writer you can be too close to the story to see what's missing. And I assume the people making this suggestion are professionals and they know what they're doing. Giving advice from professionals serious consideration is always a good thing, even if you end up not taking it. Or you could find a different way of achieving the same thing they're suggesting.

If the suggestion really only is to add a token character (or similar) to be able to market the book to certain audiences without actually adding anything to the story (or even by detracting from it), then it depends on the cost of not doing the change and your artistic integrity. That's a question only you can answer. If not making this change would mean you don't get the publishing deal, then that is very different from simply selling fewer copies. And then it also matters if you are really set on this deal (and how good it is), or if it's just a nice to have but you would just as easily indie-publish.

Added to this is that publishing is a small world. If you want to be a career trad-published author, then you don't want to get a name as someone who never takes suggestions and is hard to work with. So you could refuse this suggestion, but depending on who made the suggestion and how it's framed, it could also mean you never get a publishing deal again.

All in all, too many variable to give a definitive answer. But I would suggest you at least give it an honest and serious consideration, assuming the editor is trying to make your book the best it can be. That doesn't mean you should take it. Just that you consider it.

I would 100% consider it if the approach was 'hey, this might make the book more interesting for x demographic'
The 'because money' approach depends on how much of my book I would have to change/alter to meet said request.
A 'token character' can be pretty harmless when done well, but it can also be frowned upon if most readers pick up on the fact that it was added just so the book/film could sell.

 

[pmmg]

This one is up to personal choice. If you want sales, these guys are telling you what they think will help with that. If you want to tell the story your way, then...

I would not discount them, but chances are a different publisher may see it differently. You could always self publish.

In all the stories I sold to publishers, they all wanted changes. Initially, I obliged, cause I wanted a feather in my cap. But...I prefer to tell my story my way at present. So, I am indi.

 

[Mad Swede]

No serious publisher would ever make a statement like that. Quite apart from anything else, no publisher can predict how many copies a book will sell.

I have a publishing contract, and my editor doesn't ever say things like that. The changes she suggests are usually about characterisation or story/character arcs. They are not in themselves about increasing sales, and the changes she suggests are never justified like that.

I would ignore the suggestion and reject the publisher.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

This one is up to personal choice. If you want sales, these guys are telling you what they think will help with that. If you want to tell the story your way, then...

I would not discount them, but chances are a different publisher may see it differently. You could always self publish.

In all the stories I sold to publishers, they all wanted changes. Initially, I obliged, cause I wanted a feather in my cap. But...I prefer to tell my story my way at present. So, I am indi.

Personally I would ask the publisher to show what research they have done to show that would make my particular novel (key word 'my' novel, not other novels on the market) sell better with such changes.

If the logic is sound and has to do with adding an actual good token character to the story then I'll probably consider it?

A lot of it depends on how...let's say 'pushy' they are about it, if they approach me on equal footing I'm much more likely to see their ideas.

It's kind of a hard decision to make until I'm actually faced with it. Though a couple of my stories already have a bisexual girl (For one of them it's not outright stated because it's an E-Teen rated story. She does basically full stop say it by going 'father says there's a fish for everyone, but like, what if I want ALL the fish' very casually. None of the characters in the room are particularly thrown by her statement.) in them, but that's because that's how that character presented themselves to me, and much less about wanting more sales. I'm likely to add those types of characters if I feel they're a part of the story, Token characters I'm a bit iffy about depending on what needs to change in the plot.

No serious publisher would ever make a statement like that. Quite apart from anything else, no publisher can predict how many copies a book will sell.

I have a publishing contract, and my editor doesn't ever say things like that. The changes she suggests are usually about characterisation or story/character arcs. They are not in themselves about increasing sales, and the changes she suggests are never justified like that.

I would ignore the suggestion and reject the publisher.

As said earlier in this post, I think it would depend on how...to put it nicely 'pushy' they are.
If they're all 'because money' and practically sending mafia to my house with the deal, I'd cut and run lol
But if the changes don't affect the overarching story much and they want me to portray a POSITIVE portrayal of such character, I might take a crack at it, not without doing plenty of research first of course.

Like you and PMMing had said, it depends on how they justify it, but it also depends on the wording and how pushy they are with it.

 

[pmmg]

Personally I would ask the publisher to show what research they have done to show that would make my particular novel (key word 'my' novel, not other novels on the market) sell better with such changes.

Well. You made the opening post, so did you?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Well. You made the opening post, so did you?

If a publisher came to me with this sort of offer, I probably would ask them to show me their research.
And even if their research is good, my response would likely depend on how they approached me with the offer.
All jokes and jaffs aside I think my feelings would be very mixed, of course I want my book to sell, but I also don't want to be frowned upon by adding a 'cheap token character' that does nothing for the story.

 

[skip.knox]

You are speaking of a theoretical. The original post led me, and others here I think, to read it as something that actually happened to you. For myself, I'm not inclined to fight battles that have yet to occur.

 

[pmmg]

Oh, yes...I was thinking this was an actual event, not a hypothetical one.

 

[Mad Swede]

If a publisher came to me with this sort of offer, I probably would ask them to show me their research.
And even if their research is good, my response would likely depend on how they approached me with the offer.
All jokes and jaffs aside I think my feelings would be very mixed, of course I want my book to sell, but I also don't want to be frowned upon by adding a 'cheap token character' that does nothing for the story.

I'll write it again. No serious publisher is ever going to make a statement like that to you. So don't spend any time thinking about how you might react, because it won't happen.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I'll write it again. No serious publisher is ever going to make a statement like that to you. So don't spend any time thinking about how you might react, because it won't happen.

Hmm, how does one tell the 'serious' publishers from the 'not serious' publishers? /silly (Yes that /silly is required)
ok ok joking aside, message understood, I was more asking the question out of curiosity because I've never published a book before. And I know at least a few of you lot have, possibly multiple times. So I figured I'd banish the demons by hearing the facts from folks who are experienced. I do apologise if the OP didn't come across as a hypothetical, I shoulda made that part more clear. I thought by posting it in the 'research' forum that was clear enough.

That being said, what kinds of things DO publishers ask you to change? Aside from obvious stuff (like religious references that maybe might be a little sketch, not that I write that kind of material, I know my parents would 100% NOT approve of that type stuff anyhow.)

 

[Mad Swede]

Hmm, how does one tell the 'serious' publishers from the 'not serious' publishers? /silly (Yes that /silly is required)
ok ok joking aside, message understood, I was more asking the question out of curiosity because I've never published a book before. And I know at least a few of you lot have, possibly multiple times. So I figured I'd banish the demons by hearing the facts from folks who are experienced. I do apologise if the OP didn't come across as a hypothetical, I shoulda made that part more clear. I thought by posting it in the 'research' forum that was clear enough.

Rule number 1: Money flows from the publisher to the author. Any "publisher" who asks you to pay for anything (editing, printing, review copies etc) is not serious and should be discarded from your list.

Rule number 2: You sell the right to publish your book in one or more formats (hard copy, e-book, audio book etc). You do not sell the copyright or the moral rights to your book. Any "publisher" who wants you to sign away the copyright is not serious.

Rule number 3: No publisher will ever predict how many copies of your book they will sell, nor will they promise to sell a certain number of copies. Any "publisher" who claims to be able to sell a certain number of copies of your book is not serious.

Rule number 4: Literary agents do not charge up front. They take their cut when they have sold your book to a publisher. Any "literary agent" who tries to charge you money (reading fees, editing etc) or refers you to a supposedly independent editor should be rejected.

Rule number 5: Book stores never contact an author to ask them to pay for printing, or to display the book or to promote the book in any way. If a "book sstore" does this, walk away.

Make sure you read Writer Beware

That being said, what kinds of things DO publishers ask you to change? Aside from obvious stuff (like religious references that maybe might be a little sketch, not that I write that kind of material, I know my parents would 100% NOT approve of that type stuff anyhow.)

This depends on how good a writer you are and what you are writing. Generally what they look to improve are things like characterisation, dialogue, pacing and character arcs. They will usually not try to change your writing style.

 

[pmmg]

I have been asked to meet a certain word count (make it smaller).

I have been asked to change some small aspect to meet more the values of the publisher.

I have been asked to fix something for clarity.

Nothing major.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Rule number 1: Money flows from the publisher to the author. Any "publisher" who asks you to pay for anything (editing, printing, review copies etc) is not serious and should be discarded from your list.

Rule number 2: You sell the right to publish your book in one or more formats (hard copy, e-book, audio book etc). You do not sell the copyright or the moral rights to your book. Any "publisher" who wants you to sign away the copyright is not serious.

Rule number 3: No publisher will ever predict how many copies of your book they will sell, nor will they promise to sell a certain number of copies. Any "publisher" who claims to be able to sell a certain number of copies of your book is not serious.

Rule number 4: Literary agents do not charge up front. They take their cut when they have sold your book to a publisher. Any "literary agent" who tries to charge you money (reading fees, editing etc) or refers you to a supposedly independent editor should be rejected.

Rule number 5: Book stores never contact an author to ask them to pay for printing, or to display the book or to promote the book in any way. If a "book sstore" does this, walk away.

Make sure you read Writer Beware

Thanks for the tips, no joke I will keep an eye out for this when I decide to publish (Provided I finish something first...)
Out of curiosity, does this (particularly Rule 1) include those Self Publisher "Companies" that charge up front for "services" or are most of those a scam? I looked into those a while back, and to be honest, they were asking way too much and offering way too little for the price. A lot of the stuff looked like it was cooked up by AI.

This depends on how good a writer you are and what you are writing. Generally what they look to improve are things like characterisation, dialogue, pacing and character arcs. They will usually not try to change your writing style.

I think my biggest issue is pacing, particularly during conversations with many characters (by 'many' I mean like 5+ ) or fight scenes. Even my sword fights are a bit on the choppy side and not in the blade goes in the body way lol

I haven't tried the whole 'watch a scene then try to re-write it in prose' trick though, might help me get better might not.

I have been asked to meet a certain word count (make it smaller).

I have been asked to change some small aspect to meet more the values of the publisher.

I have been asked to fix something for clarity.

Nothing major.

I might have some trouble with that first one, depending on the publisher. Couldn't tell you the exact word count but my documents per chapter hover around the 30-45 kb range. Which I don't THINK I'm overly wordy in most places, but I dunno. I don't think I struggle with run on sentences at least.

Second one also depends on the publisher, ideally I would first try to find a publisher who has similar values, even if their goal is 'money'

Third one, I'd probably want to get that stuff hashed out BEFORE I submit it to any publisher, probably through you guys.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Thanks for the tips, no joke I will keep an eye out for this when I decide to publish (Provided I finish something first...)
Out of curiosity, does this (particularly Rule 1) include those Self Publisher "Companies" that charge up front for "services" or are most of those a scam? I looked into those a while back, and to be honest, they were asking way too much and offering way too little for the price. A lot of the stuff looked like it was cooked up by AI.

I think my biggest issue is pacing, particularly during conversations with many characters (by 'many' I mean like 5+ ) or fight scenes. Even my sword fights are a bit on the choppy side and not in the blade goes in the body way lol

I haven't tried the whole 'watch a scene then try to re-write it in prose' trick though, might help me get better might not.


I might have some trouble with that first one, depending on the publisher. Couldn't tell you the exact word count but my documents per chapter hover around the 30-45 kb range. Which I don't THINK I'm overly wordy in most places, but I dunno. I don't think I struggle with run on sentences at least.

Second one also depends on the publisher, ideally I would first try to find a publisher who has similar values, even if their goal is 'money'

Third one, I'd probably want to get that stuff hashed out BEFORE I submit it to any publisher, probably through you guys.

Yes, any time a publisher wants money from you, it's a scam. Full stop. In Publishing, money flows from the publisher to the writer and not the other way around. Indie involves spending some money, but it's you the author giving money to you, the publisher. No professional traditional publisher will ask you for money.

Word counts can be performed in a couple of ways. One, in the lower lefthand corner of your manuscript there should be a number, at least there will be in Word. That's your word count. You can also estimate word count, there are on average 250 words per page. Multiply that by your total pages and that's an acceptable estimated word count.

A good place to go to learn more about publishing - trad and indie - is YouTube. There is a veritable plethora of channels devoted to answering these questions and many more. A great many are devoted to the neophyte writer.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Out of curiosity, does this (particularly Rule 1) include those Self Publisher "Companies" that charge up front for "services" or are most of those a scam? I looked into those a while back, and to be honest, they were asking way too much and offering way too little for the price.

Just to get the definitions out of the way: a publisher is the company who owns the rights to distribute your book. If you indie publish, then you are the publisher. If you trad-publish, then you sell your distribution rights to the publisher. This is the big difference.

Now, if you sell your publishing rights, then you never pay for stuff directly. Money flows to the author, never the other way round. After all, you already sold something to the publisher, the rest is their job. The publishers makes his money by only paying out a percentage of the royalties received to you.

It should be very clear if you are selling your publishing rights. There will be contracts involved that very clearly state what you are selling and for how long and what you get in return.

If you are the publisher (so you are indie publishing), then you basically have to do all the work a publisher would normally do. As with everything, that either takes time, money, or both. There are companies that can help you with this, some labelled as self-publisher companies. They will charge you X and deliver Y. These aren't necessarily a scam. After all, if you hire an editor, then that editor will edit the work for $X. That's perfectly legit.

The same goes for everything else. You can outsource pretty much the whole process of self-publishing in exchange for money.

There are several things here to be aware of. The first is that package deal companies tend to overcharge for services, especially for simple stuff. For example. the basic formatting you need for your book can be done for free. There's no need to pay $100 or more for that, especially since it takes seconds to do a good enough job for a first novel. Also, from what I've seen, editing services by these kinds of companies tend to be more expensive than contacting editors directly.

The second is that it needs to be very clear who does what and who owns what. For instance, don't let someone publish your book through their Amazon account, because then they are publishing it and not you. That's inviting them to scam you out of your royalties. It's too easy for them to simply tell you you had no sales and keep all the money. It also ties you to them long term, when there is no need for that. But also don't accidentally sign away your publishing rights. Always read any contracts they send over.

Also be aware that scammy companies often try to upsell you services. They've read your manuscript and wrote a critique, but it realy also needs a developmental edit. And then a second round of editing, and so on.

So no, they're not always a scam. Places like Reedsy offer plenty of these services. However, many of them are.