How to 'kill' the he said/she said habit?

[Naruzeldamaster]

I mean obvious answer is practice. And maybe reading some good books too.
I'm doing a little better about it recently? but I'd still like to get rid of it if I can.

I am also wondering if words like stated / shouted etc could be adapted.

 

[skip.knox]

Why are you trying to do this? Just write stuff and use the saids wherever it feels right. Make changes in the edit, sure, but not in the drafting.

IMO YMMV ETC <g>

 

[pmmg]

id not want get rid of them for
No reason. Are they a problem?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Why are you trying to do this? Just write stuff and use the saids wherever it feels right. Make changes in the edit, sure, but not in the drafting.

IMO YMMV ETC <g>

The idea isn't exactly to 'kill' it, just to shave it off some and use it less like others here have suggested.

id not want get rid of them for
No reason. Are they a problem?

Not so much a problem, I just feel like I'm relying on them too much.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I don't have issues with, "said.' It's a tool in the toolbox, like everything else. Most of the time it's invisible to all but the most... I should say diligent but really, precious and nitpicky come more naturally to mind. Note: I am exactly that nitpicker, The Evil Queen of Why, and I am utterly brutal about it, and a few other nits. Like repeated words in close proximity. Clarity issues. Pacing flubs. Inaccuracies.

Basically every sin I commit on the daily.

The method for dealing with 'said' that I lean in on the most is to remember there is a whole lot more than 'said' that happens in any given scene. Physiological responses to stress, lots of eyebrow action - save me from eyebrows, great googly moogly - a little bit of "what's in my pocket?" How about positioning and other uses for body language that can help tell the story? Subtext. I adore subtext.

In other words, it's just choreography, as much in conversation as in everything else we want to use to tell our stories. As a result, I don't use 'said' much, anymore. It's invisible, and I want fireworks, much of the time. And, as usual, this is what it looks like on my page.

~~~

Etienne returned his look with a small shrug and motioned for him to go ahead. The boy shrugged off the backpack, setting it down on the floor at the end of the counter with a soft creak of ancient floorboards. Etienne turned and watched the woman make her way to a stool behind the counter, where she pulled a second stool around for him. He still felt a little wary but sat.

Jessie exploded from behind the curtain. “‘Scuse me. Hungry woman, coming through.” She pushed herself between Etienne and her employer and rummaged in the box. “You,” she declared in a dictatorial fashion as she pulled out a bag and pushed it toward her employer, “eat this. All of it. Here’s your next coffee.” She looked over her shoulder to Etienne and said conspiratorially, “I’m waiting for her to vibrate to the center of the Earth. This is, like, her tenth coffee today,” before she grabbed the cup in the woman’s hand and tested the weight. “Drink this before it gets colder.” She made to hand the cup back and then snatched it back. “Why are your hands shaking again?”

“I’m fine.”

“Uh-huh. I’m telling Erik and Katherine.”

The woman’s voice sharpened. “That’s enough. Now go eat your lunch and let me speak with this gentleman, please.”

Jessie hesitated, worry playing across her face, and then she picked up the box. “Fine. For now.” She moved to the curtain and then spun back. “Hey, you guys hungry?” she asked Etienne.

Etienne’s head was spinning a bit from the whirlwind that was Jessie. “No,” he managed, “No, we just ate, but thank you for offering.”

She looked at him, head tipped to the side, her expression measuring. After a moment she chirped, “‘Kay,” and bounced back through the curtains.

Etienne shook his head, amused and confused in turns by this place. “She’s quite something.” The woman was taking deep swallows from the cup, her long throat working.

Finally, she set the cup down and tucked one trembling hand in the other, her face turned toward the back room. “She is, indeed,” she said quietly. The smallest of smiles pulled at her lips, but her love and affection for the girl were plain to see. She turned back to him. “Now, where were we?”

Etienne’s smile did reach his eyes. “Introducing ourselves, I believe.” He sat up straighter and gave her a small bow in his seat. “I am Etienne Knight, my lady, and my companion’s name is Cian.”

Her eyes lit up with recognition at his name. “You did say Arthur Reynolds,” she said, her voice breathy with wonder. “I’m Winter Mulcahy. Arthur was one of my uncles. He used to tell us stories about you from the war. I think we even have a picture of you at the House.”

Etienne’s heart jumped. Yes! Mulcahy was the name he had forgotten. “Do you know how I…” he trailed off, thinking over what she had just said. “Did you say ‘was?’”

 

[Penpilot]

There's nothing wrong with using said. It's an invisible word when it comes to stories. I think it's mostly writers who notice it, and/or worry about how much it's used. I've found going to extremes to avoid things that don't necessarily need to be avoided doesn't usually end well.

With that said, along the lines of what A. E. Lowan mentioned, designing your scenes to have motion in them will help a lot in reducing it's usage. Sometimes it's literal motion, where characters are moving about doing stuff. Sometimes it's emotional movement, where the character thinks about things. You can use these things to create action tags instead of using dialogue tags.

In addition, you can use what characters are doing to world build, character build, and/or move the plot along. For example, if you're writing a fantasy story, you can have characters wander through a market, noticing interacting with items, magic or not, interacting or noticing humans and non humans, and going through that will help flesh out the world and characters as well as provide opportunities for action tags instead of dialogue tags.

But there's a danger to action tags. You have to know how to pace out the actions and don't over do it, because if a character is constantly moving about doing something different with each piece of dialogue, it can make the character seem twitchy.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

There's nothing wrong with using said. It's an invisible word when it comes to stories. I think it's mostly writers who notice it, and/or worry about how much it's used. I've found going to extremes to avoid things that don't necessarily need to be avoided doesn't usually end well.

Hmm, noted, as stated in my above post I just want to use them less as a 'crutch' and more as a proper tool. Same way with swears, I feel they're a tool in my kit, despite not swearing much (if at all) myself. At times even when I'm writing a 'potty mouth' I feel like I'm using them too often for my taste. But I can always fix that on the revision stage.

With that said, along the lines of what A. E. Lowan mentioned, designing your scenes to have motion in them will help a lot in reducing it's usage. Sometimes it's literal motion, where characters are moving about doing stuff. Sometimes it's emotional movement, where the character thinks about things. You can use these things to create action tags instead of using dialogue tags.

In addition, you can use what characters are doing to world build, character build, and/or move the plot along. For example, if you're writing a fantasy story, you can have characters wander through a market, noticing interacting with items, magic or not, interacting or noticing humans and non humans, and going through that will help flesh out the world and characters as well as provide opportunities for action tags instead of dialogue tags.

But there's a danger to action tags. You have to know how to pace out the actions and don't over do it, because if a character is constantly moving about doing something different with each piece of dialogue, it can make the character seem twitchy.

Oddly enough I do have a character in my RWBY story, he 'fidgets' a bit when he's unsure of himself. Normally he's confident (Much less 'confident' and more...certain? I guess, he's very logic driven) and somewhat stoic, but when that confidence wavers a bit or he's uncertain how to word something. He scratches the back of one leg with the other out of habit. He does this despite his legs being inorganic (But the legs are so advanced that it mimics the real thing about 90% accuracy, they can even go 'numb' if he cuts the 'oil' flow off from resting on them, same with his inorganic arm) since it was a habit he had well before he had the inorganic parts. He also warms up before combat because that was also a habit he's had since he was little, probably from watching too many anime and thinking that was a normal thing to do.

He has a few other 'fidgets' when he's unsure, but the leg scratching one is one I've used to 'identify' him.

However I've been trying to use his 'fidgets' sparingly to avoid him being too twitchy. I think the most times I've used this in a scene is maybe 3 times? Maybe 5. Might have to edit those down a bit.

 

[skip.knox]

>use it less like others here have suggested.
You can look elsewhere and find not merely suggestions but outright recommendations to use "said" exclusively. Moreover, expectations along these lines will vary by both genre and decade. IOW, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

If, however, you have a completed work and you feel you need to make changes to the dialog tags, there are good recommendations to be found here at Scribes. Do a search on "dialog tags" and you'll find a number of threads.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

Just don't fall into the Redshirts trap of using 'said' so much it doesn't even sound like a word after a while.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Just don't fall into the Redshirts trap of using 'said' so much it doesn't even sound like a word after a while.

That's the concern lol I don't feel like I use it TOO much (to the point that it's an issue?) but like every second or third dialogue is 'said'
Sometimes I switch it up with other 'said' options (like shouted, growled etc) but those are kinda the same thing, use them too many times and your brain tunes them out. I feel like this is one of the things I'll have to keep an eye out during editing.

 

[Karlin]

I have read many good books that use "he said", "she said". It doesn't bother me when reading. For some reason, when writing, I try to avoid that. If it's a dialog, then the conversation is bouncing between two people, so it should be clear who is speaking just from the sequence. I find however, that after a few back and forths, the reader can lose track of who is speaking. So I add a 'hint' here ad there, either in action, or by having one of the characters refer to the other by name.

Depending on the setting, you can use props to indicate who is speaking. Cup of coffee, cigarette, pencil, weapon- can be shifted from hand to hand, nervously tapped or whatever. Even a non-existant prop can work "Jim reached for a cigarette, then remembered it was a no-smoking zone"

 

[prettyguardian]

I had never even considered that there would be something wrong with using the word "said" until this year. I wonder if it's connected to some kind of social media trend or TikTok video describing it as bad writing.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

I had never even considered that there would be something wrong with using the word "said" until this year. I wonder if it's connected to some kind of social media trend or TikTok video describing it as bad writing.

I've heard that 'said' can be used as a 'crutch' but not much more than that. Then there's the 'red shirts' problem mentioned above where your brain tunes it out as a word.

 

[minta]

what about character reactions or small descriptions, try to mix it up could be nice.

 

[Karlin]

I had never even considered that there would be something wrong with using the word "said" until this year. I wonder if it's connected to some kind of social media trend or TikTok video describing it as bad writing.

I've been avoiding it for over a decade, yet I don't don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm a social media dinosaur, so I doubt Tik Tok has anything to do with my attitude.

 

[Prince of Spires]

There is nothing wrong with he said / she said. It's a great and short way of indicating who's talking and it's invisible to readers in the sense that it doesn't catch attention like many of the alternatives like having characters mutter and state and announce etc. So use said all you want.

Two ways of reducing the number of said's:

In a two way conversation, you can drop them for half to two-thirds of the time, as long as it's clear who's doing the talking.
"I love vanilla ice cream," Bob said.
"I really prefer chocolate," Marry said.
"Chocolate?"That's the most boring, vanilla flavor of them all."
"Still better than actual vanilla."

Because it's a back and forth between 2 characters, it's clear who's doing the talking. So there's no need to clarify it to the reader, which is what the said is for. Now, you do want to remind a reader every couple of exchanges who's who. If there's a block of 20 sentences, the reader will be lost and zone out. After the initial he said / she said, you can add a single he said every three or four sentences. I tend to go with an odd number, since that lets me switch characters. So you'd have a Bob said after one sentence, and then a Marry said 3 sentences later. For example.

Note that this stops working well if there are more than 2 characters talking in a given scene. You can still occasionally drop the he /she said, but it quickly becomes confusing. Especially if there are four or more characters in a scene.

The other way of reducing the number of he said / she said, is to include action beat in the sentence. Either before or after the spoken bit. Basically, a character does something (usually small). And a reader knows that this means the one speaking is the same person as the one who performed the action.

Bob looked at the poster advertising the ice cream, water filling his mouth. "I love vanilla ice cream."
Marry raised her eyebrows. "Really? I prefer chocolate."

The good thing about action beats is that it helps paint the scene and places the characters in a room. If you just have 2 people talking, then you can end up with a white, empty room. It adds information to the reader, and it can help develop a character by showing the reader how a character reacts to a situation.

It also works in scene's with more than 2 characters talking, since Bob looked at the poster advertising the ice cream, water filling his mouth is simply a replacement for Bob said.

It does slow the pace down, since it takes more words. So if you want something fast, then just use he said. And it can become silly if you have doesdo something every sentence they say. It can make them fly all over the place if they nod their head sentence one, and then tap their foot the next sentence they say, and then wander across the room, and then look out the window etc. So use with caution and make sure the actions matter.

 

[Adam Scribentis]

"Said" can be overused and the writer may by all means seek out alternatives, but an honest "said" that fits is much better than a stilted alternative.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

"Said" can be overused and the writer may by all means seek out alternatives, but an honest "said" that fits is much better than a stilted alternative.

I think the thing that spawned this thread is that I feel like I'm using it a lot?
But like, it's weird, cause I'm trying to branch out and use things besides that.

 

[pmmg]

I was not able to answer this one properly in my first drive by, so...back I am.

I think there is a type hierarchy to dialog tags, and as we grow as writers we move along the tree, improving out tool bag, and finding new ways to make the writing engaging. I was going to try and write all this in a portfolio entry, but I've been sidetracked by many things.

Anyway....in brief:


Worst is using anything but said.

"Hey?" Bob shouted.

"Go away," Catchy growled.

"But, I was just wondering if you wanted to go to the movies," Bob pleaded.

"Not if you were the last man on earth," Cathy snapped.

Too much of that, and readers will think you are a beginner. Once in a while, okay, but every dialog tag and it just wears thin and trite.


Better--using said:

"Hey," Bob said.

"Go away," said Cathy.

"But, I was just wondering if you wanted to go to the movies," said Bob.

"Not if you were the last man on earth," said Cathy.



Better than that--Using action beats.

"Hey," Bob said, running over to catch Cathy before she closed her locker.

"Go away," said Cathy, turning away from him and slamming her locker closed with a huff.

"But, I was just wondering if you wanted to go to the movies," Bob said, his hands open, and eyebrows scrunching up to question.

"Not if you were the last man on earth," said Cathy, turning away and stamping her foot.



A neat trick--Not using said at all.

"Hey." Bob ran over to catch Cathy before she closed her locker.

"Go away." Cathy turned away from him and slamming her locker closed with a huff.

"But, I was just wondering if you wanted to go to the movies."

"Not if you were the last man on earth." Cathy turned away and stamped her foot.



Putting it all together -- using variety

"Hey," Bob said as he ran over to catch Cathy before she closed her locker.

"Go away." Cathy growled, turning away from him and slamming her locker closed.

"But, I was just wondering if you wanted to go to the movies."

"Not if you were the last man on earth." said Cathy.


The art -- knowing when

This is all on you. Yes, you have to break up long sections of he said, she said, he said, she said. But if you over use one, its will start to glare. Many authors write to avoid using dialog tags at all (such as AELowans example above), and the industry seems to like that, but really...sometimes its needed to add clarity. I like using said, cause I like its resonance at time. Some sentences need the extra beat, others don't. Adding action beats is more engaging and more immersive, you should look to break things up by adding them. I think a combo of Lowan and Prince of Spires is about right