A Kingdom without a King: Territory Naming Question

[R. R. Hunter]

If I said there was a northern realm and a southern realm, what do you think a Realmdom would be?

Realmdom is not a real word. I know this. But just from the sentence alone, can you gather its meaning?

Perhaps I'm overthinking the whole thing. I'm certainly second-guessing it. I've had someone read my manuscript, and they did not like the word Realmdom.

The "-dom" is ruled by....the Pope -- pretty much the Vatican in a fantasy setting. There are no kings, but there are Lords (large land holders, the rich) and Lord Masters (families who govern their realm). The Pope would be considered a king, but the "Pope" is a committee elected....by the members of the fantasy Vatican. Shhh, don't worry, it's completely non-biased and fair. No more questions (from you).

What's another name for Kingdom that I could give this place? I mean, if I set up my own form of government, why can't I name it what I want? Well, I do want it to make sense. More importantly, I want it to be VERY easy to understand.

 

[Queshire]

Honestly I agree that realmdom doesn't do it for me. I'd just call them realms instead ya know?

 

[Gurkhal]

For the country/crown ruled by a pope how about "the Theocracy"?

 

[pmmg]

Maybe a northern and southern diocese.

Uh, you know, its fiction so… but as a Catholic, i think its is very unlikely there would be a pope in this context. Its not just a fancy title. And ill just leave it at that.


And i think realm kind of means there is a king. You said there were lords. So lord’s dom, would seem more fitting. It would be bastardized though. So Lordom or lordsdom, lordsrealm.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

Honestly I agree that realmdom doesn't do it for me. I'd just call them realms instead ya know?

Yeah, the realms have names, not just The Northern Realm, or what not. But I need to call the sum of all realms something.

Maybe a northern and southern diocese.

Uh, you know, its fiction so… but as a Catholic, i think its is very unlikely there would be a pope in this context. Its not just a fancy title. And ill just leave it at that.


And i think realm kind of means there is a king. You said there were lords. So lord’s dom, would seem more fitting. It would be bastardized though. So Lordom or lordsdom, lordsrealm.

Yeah, it's not a Pope-King. It's a church "enforcing" governmental law and order. Diocese is a fun sounding word though. Makes me think of Duchies. It was used in the Realm of the Elderlings books (Assasins Apprentice). Realmdom is already bastardized. I dunno, I'll have to think about this a bit more.

 

[pmmg]

A diocese comes from Diocletian, but the Catholics (the ones with the pope) divide their territories into diocese. I live in the Diocese of Baltimore, for example. A duchy has a Duke on top. Pope just means 'Father' or 'Patriarch'. It has to do with why Catholics call their Priests father, and the primacy of Peter as head of the church...though the Pope is not the head of the church, Christ is. So....A Pope that was at odds with the divine powers would not be Pope. Which is to say, I don't think a council would suffice. The pope does not answer to a council, he answers to the heavenly powers (if answer is the right word). If this is meant to be in a Catholic flavor, there are many reasons I would think this term would be unlikely.

When the roman empire split, I suspect the pope called them the eastern and western empires, just like everyone else.

 

[Mad Swede]

A territory or realm ruled by a bishop on behalf of the Pope (or even by the Pope personally) would probably be known as a Palatinate.

 

[Nighty_Knight]

Or Papal States

Papal Realm?

Papal Republic?

Palatine Realm or Republic or States?

Palatinate Empire?

 

[pmmg]

Had to look up Palatinate. That was used in Germany and some areas surrounding. I don't think that term made it across the Atlantic. Does not matter, seems a good term as well. A diocese is usually headed by a Bishop, and is not usually super large. Where I live there is the Baltimore Diocese and the Washington Diocese nearest to me. Seems much more in the fashion of a big city and its surrounding areas.

Thinking on this some more, both Realm and Dom mean a territory that is ruled by some one. It almost be like saying Realm Realm or Dom Dom. I would not use this. I would use Northern Realm (if there were a King), or such. Knowing people would shorten that over time. As I said above, a word like Nor-realm, or Nordom might appear, but not likely realmdom.


BTW, a good source for items like this is the Catholic Encyclopedia, of which, there are many sources online.

 

[Mad Swede]

The term Palatinate was also used in the UK. The Bishops of Durham were so-called Prince Bishops, and ruled the diocese of Durham and also the (civil) County Palatine of Durham.

 

[Ban]

Hungary under Horthy was a kingdom without a monarch for more than two decades. With clever worldbuilding you can use the title of "kingdom" without having a king in place. You could for example write that there once was a monarchy ruling the land, but that through a change in legislation the title of "king" ceased to be a matter of heredity, and instead was transferred on anyone who holds the highest seat in the land. Alternatively you can make the "kingdom" a religious ideal instead, in the same sense that Christians believe in the "Kingdom of Heaven." It would be trivial for a fantasy religion to declare itself a spiritual kingdom with temporal dominion.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

I love every single one of you. I just want you all to know that.

So, like a Kingdom and it's territories, there is a Palatine and it's diocese?

 

[pmmg]

Not quite. A Palatinate is not related to a diocese. They are separate from each other.

A large Diocese might be an Arch Diocese.

Here is a very long and definitive answer: Diocese; Palatinate

 

[R. R. Hunter]

If I called it something like, The Karatian Palatine, could it also be referred to as "the Palatinate?"

 

[pmmg]

Yes. That would work. Unless there was two Palatinates. Then you might need a differentiator.

 

[BearBear]

If I said there was a northern realm and a southern realm, what do you think a Realmdom would be?

Yes... but your instincts are telling you it's awkward and you should listen.

Call it Realisationsvinsybeskattninberg or Sockergrisholm.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

You could call it an empire. Multiple states, or territories, under a supreme ruler qualifies. Doesn't matter what the supreme ruler's official title is.

 

[Insolent Lad]

Principality is a useful, somewhat neutral and nebulous name for any sort of state with a single ruler—a 'prince' in the broad sense.

 

[Prince of Spires]

It has to do with why Catholics call their Priests father, and the primacy of Peter as head of the church...though the Pope is not the head of the church, Christ is. So....A Pope that was at odds with the divine powers would not be Pope. Which is to say, I don't think a council would suffice. The pope does not answer to a council, he answers to the heavenly powers (if answer is the right word). If this is meant to be in a Catholic flavor, there are many reasons I would think this term would be unlikely.

Wait, isn't this exactly how the pope is elected (and has been for milenia)? Old pope dies. A bunch of old men gather in the Vatican. They discuss on who should be pope next. They hold a vote. When one guy gets the majority we end up with a new pope.

 

[pmmg]

Well, I dont wish to turn the thread in to all things Catholic. I was responding to the OP when they said:

The Pope would be considered a king, but the "Pope" is a committee elected....by the members of the fantasy Vatican.

I read in this that the Pope is beholden to the council. The Pope is not beholden to the council. And the Pope does not require a council. It is currently the tradition that they are 'elected' by the cardinals, but that too is not required.

I was also responding to the likelihood of Pope becoming the title used in a fantasy setting. Many of our Titles come from Caesar, (Kaiser, Tzar...). Essentially one man became leader and set the standard. Since Pope means 'father', for such a title to have taken hold, it would have had to have come from a tradition of calling the leader father. The Catholics have used this term for their own reasons, but I dont see many other cultures that have, and the Catholics have used this term even while there were Caesars and Kings about. It would seem to me that this term would not likely organically form without the tradition of the religion to support it.

I see the term 'Pope' used in pop culture, primarily in anime, and even other Catholic trappings, and you know...whatever. But, I also think these are unlikely, and depart from the relationship with the faith that would need to exist to cause them to come about.

If I presume a world where the Catholic faith existed and a Pope had formed, and then the Pope was somehow hijacked into becoming this great temporal King, I think you are discounting the reaction that heaven and earth would have to that. There might be a lot more protestants if that happened. Which is all to say, if you separate the Pope from the Faith, the term becomes more unlikely. If you include the faith, he does not likely become this type of leader.

But I would not say impossible. Since the term is used, the OP may as well use the other Catholic terms for division of territory. Seems they have settled on Palatinate... So, game on.