A Kingdom without a King: Territory Naming Question

[Insolent Lad]

I used the older Latin name of 'pontifex' when I dropped a pope-like character into some of my fiction. Of course, the pope is also known as the pontiff.

 

[pmmg]

Pontiff has a different origin, and was in use by some regardless of pope so it would be more in the realm of likely. Pontiff literally means ‘bridge builder’ and was a term applied to Julius Caesar.

Seems not a stretch to end up with the pope as its a latin term used in Rome and sounds similar.

 

[Prince of Spires]

If I presume a world where the Catholic faith existed and a Pope had formed, and then the Pope was somehow hijacked into becoming this great temporal King, I think you are discounting the reaction that heaven and earth would have to that. There might be a lot more protestants if that happened. Which is all to say, if you separate the Pope from the Faith, the term becomes more unlikely. If you include the faith, he does not likely become this type of leader.

The Papal States were actually a thing, which existed for over 1100 years. For large chunks of that time, the pope was head of one of the major states in Italy. The pope was definitely a temporal leader, and not just a spiritual one for much of Christian history. Even more so because the catholic church was one of the largest land owners in Europe, and the clergy was a powerful group. Yes, they often did their own thing, and a bishop in northern Scotland probably ignore much of what the pope said and did. But he still wielded a lot of power. After all, being the one in control of someones afterlife gives you a lot of power of that person.

Also, as far as I can tell, the pope has always been elected, and has been elected by cardinals ever since 1059. It might not be required (in the given setting), but it would be a large diviation from history.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

Thank you for the wonderful input. I have indeed settled on Palatinate/Palatine and provinces

 

[pmmg]

Also, as far as I can tell, the pope has always been elected, and has been elected by cardinals ever since 1059. It might not be required (in the given setting), but it would be a large diviation from history.

Pope Peter was selected by Christ, and Pope Linus was selected by Peter and Paul... Not elected.

The Popes are currently elected through a well established process. But they have not always been. I am sure many have their opinions as to whether the Pope has some special place in a spiritual hierarchy or is just a fool with a silly hat, and I will leave it to you to decide which. To say that they are merely elected is to discount the role the spiritual belief that Catholics hold plays in the process. The selection of a Pope also reflects God's will on the subject, and the process is one full of prayers, and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If the Cardinals were going to elect a Pope, but it was not God's will that it should happen, God would certainly have the ability to stop it. So a Catholic would not only respect that the Pope was selected in the process of the election of the Cardinals, but also that God's will was in play.

If somehow, it could come about that the Pope would get selected and God did not approve, the will of the Cardinals would hold no weight next to that of the Deity.

 

[pmmg]

The Papal States were actually a thing, which existed for over 1100 years. For large chunks of that time, the pope was head of one of the major states in Italy. The pope was definitely a temporal leader, and not just a spiritual one for much of Christian history. Even more so because the catholic church was one of the largest land owners in Europe, and the clergy was a powerful group. Yes, they often did their own thing, and a bishop in northern Scotland probably ignore much of what the pope said and did. But he still wielded a lot of power. After all, being the one in control of someones afterlife gives you a lot of power of that person.

I hesitate to answer this part, cause it is pulled out of the context of the rest of the post. Of course, the Church has held much political sway and at times was the defacto head of government in some regions. And you must think I don't know very much if you think I don't know that there is currently a papal state. That is not very relevant to the point that the term Pope would not likely appear in a world without the faith. That would presume a separate and organic process occurred where a people called their rules 'father' and not king, and it stuck. And if there was the faith, that the faithful wound not start to question the purpose of the institution before it had gained such complete control. That seems to have happened here on earth.

I am going to pass on answering on Catholic stuff further. That something is unlikely, does not mean it cannot happen. The OP has already indicated he has an answer to the question.

 

[Babayaga321]

And i think realm kind of means there is a king. You said there were lords. So lord’s dom, would seem more fitting. It would be bastardized though. So Lordom or lordsdom, lordsrealm.

Lordsdom or Lordsrealm does it for me...

 

[Aldarion]

If I said there was a northern realm and a southern realm, what do you think a Realmdom would be?

Nothing, a meaningless word.

Kingdom comes from "king" and "dom", which is to say, "king's domain", that is, area ruled by a king. Then you have an earldom - area ruled by an earl, dukedom - ruled by a duke. There are more territorial units, but do not use the "dom" suffix.

Realm is a domain, therefore, "realdom" is basically "realm's domain" or "domain's domain". Doesn't make any sense.

Realmdom is not a real word. I know this. But just from the sentence alone, can you gather its meaning?

Perhaps I'm overthinking the whole thing. I'm certainly second-guessing it. I've had someone read my manuscript, and they did not like the word Realmdom.

And for a good reason, as I explained above.

The "-dom" is ruled by....the Pope -- pretty much the Vatican in a fantasy setting. There are no kings, but there are Lords (large land holders, the rich) and Lord Masters (families who govern their realm). The Pope would be considered a king, but the "Pope" is a committee elected....by the members of the fantasy Vatican. Shhh, don't worry, it's completely non-biased and fair. No more questions (from you).

What's another name for Kingdom that I could give this place? I mean, if I set up my own form of government, why can't I name it what I want? Well, I do want it to make sense. More importantly, I want it to be VERY easy to understand.

If you want a "-dom" suffix, then you can name it Popedom. Or a Papal State, much like the historical thing.

I mean, what you describe here is literally how Papal States historically were run - Pope was a king elected by a committee of the cardinals.

 

[TheKillerBs]

Also, as far as I can tell, the pope has always been elected, and has been elected by cardinals ever since 1059. It might not be required (in the given setting), but it would be a large diviation from history.

Unprovable Catholic claims about the early papacy aside, there was also a period from about the middle of the 6th century to the Iconoclast crisis where the (Eastern) Roman Emperor selected the Pope. A lot of what we think about the Papacy and Catholic hierarchy dates back to the late Viking Age and the Great Schism

 

[Finchbearer]

Hmm, realm does literally mean kingdom, and you wanted to avoid that term so you went with realmdom, which to me just sounds odd - only because it’s like saying roomroom or boxbox.

Other words to consider might be:
World
Land
County
Province

You could go down the ____world route eg. Discworld or ____land, like England

But ____ Province and ____ County would need to be separate words I suppose to make sense eg. Aix en Province or County Limerick.

Or look at old words from Norse, Celtic or Native American for example, as you might find something interesting?

 

[Prince of Spires]

Hmm, realm does literally mean kingdom, and you wanted to avoid that term so you went with realmdom, which to me just sounds odd - only because it’s like saying roomroom or boxbox.

Bit like places like the river Avon (where Avon simply means river), or the Sahara Desert (where Sahara means desert). There are a lot of places all around the world which have been named like this. Simply because one group or language replaced the other. You could easily have an invading nation ask "what's this place called?" and they get an answer like "it's called the Realm." Which then becomes Realmdom.

 

[Nighty_Knight]

Bit like places like the river Avon (where Avon simply means river), or the Sahara Desert (where Sahara means desert). There are a lot of places all around the world which have been named like this. Simply because one group or language replaced the other. You could easily have an invading nation ask "what's this place called?" and they get an answer like "it's called the Realm." Which then becomes Realmdom.

Like that place in England called Hill Hill Hill Hill

 

[Finchbearer]

Bit like places like the river Avon (where Avon simply means river), or the Sahara Desert (where Sahara means desert). There are a lot of places all around the world which have been named like this. Simply because one group or language replaced the other. You could easily have an invading nation ask "what's this place called?" and they get an answer like "it's called the Realm." Which then becomes Realmdom.

That’s super interesting! Maybe it’d have to be considered that another ‘kingdom’ would have invaded at some point?

 

[Finchbearer]

I’ve just had to Google that hill x4 and I never knew about tautology! We’re a nation of many different nations. I myself am barely ‘English’.