After 'Grimdark'

[Gryphos]

This is inspired entirely by Mark Lawrence's recent blog post in which he asked six prominent writers of what many consider 'Grimdark' fantasy to discuss the idea of whether or not Grimdark is in any way a dying trend, and if so, what will be the next 'big thing'.

Not going to go into what those writers said, but it is very interesting and worth checking out. I simply want to pose the question here: do you think that Grimdark has had its peak? Do you even think 'Grimdark' works as a label, and do you agree with what it stands for?

I personally am not a huge fan of Grimdark stuff, or stuff that I find to be overly cynical and nihilistic. To me, I see beauty in the world that I feel deserves to be captured far more than the cruelty. I'd rather read (and write) about the realistic goodness of humanity. So if Grimdark has had its peak, I'm not complaining.

But what do you guys think?

 

[Penpilot]

Maybe, but many things come in cycles. What's old becomes new again. Once something has shown it is profitable, there will always be those who will give it another go around. Hollywood is a prime example of that.

I think there's room for all types of story, stuff that explores the darkest parts of humanity, stuff that explores its lighter side, and stuff the explores the areas in between.

 

[Jabrosky]

Maybe, but many things come in cycles. What's old becomes new again. Once something has shown it is profitable, there will always be those who will give it another go around. Hollywood is a prime example of that.

I think there's room for all types of story, stuff that explores the darkest parts of humanity, stuff that explores its lighter side, and stuff the explores the areas in between.

I agree, the trendiness of "grimdark" probably is cyclical. What starts off as a welcome novelty in one generation becomes trite and overdone by its end, to be supplanted by a new novelty...which in turn becomes trite and overdone itself. And so on.

I would even go so far as to say this is why the presence of so-called "cliched" tropes isn't necessarily enough to sink a story. Our perceptions of cliches and predictability depend in large part on the current cultural zeitgeist. If you have lots of zombie apocalypses out in a given period, another zombie apocalypse is going to seem more tired than it would if it came out before the fad. And even then, some readers may still enjoy it if it's the first zombie apocalypse story they've read.

Even so-called "problematic" tropes are dependent on the zeitgeist for their power to bother readers. If Africans were to conquer Europe and enslave its inhabitants while raping its wealth, we'd have lots of patronizing stories about Mighty Black Saviors civilizing uplifting the Poor Benighted Whites, and then everyone would rightly get sick of them. But since that scenario hasn't happened yet (maybe in the next century), it's not Mighty Black Saviors we're worried about in this day and age.

 

[stephenspower]

While I for one welcome our Mighty Black Saviors, I imagine the complaint then will be, "Oh, look, the white guys are now black. What at twist."

Me, I try very hard not to be grim. It doesn't always work out. But I like that tension and knowing that if I fail there still might be a market for my work.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

My thought is that grimdark is a responce to the over optimistic, sun shining fantasy of the seventies and earlier where the hero always came through and the world was saved and people lived happily ever after. It may be that grimdark has gone beyond just being a reaction and for some people who seem to be utterly burying themselves in it it's almost a life choice. They can't seem to realise that the world being pitch black is just as unrealistic as eternal sunshine. So for them I see the grimdark continuing. For those who only really went there because it was different and new and poke fun at the unrealistic stuff it will pass.

As to what follows, my hope is that it will be mature fantasy where people can have a more balanced approach to these sorts of issues. My fear is that it'll be more paranormal romance - ugh!!! The damned stuff is everywhere, already swamping the market. The last thing we need is it hammering into the traditional / epic fantasy as well!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Penpilot]

Hi,
My fear is that it'll be more paranormal romance - ugh!!! The damned stuff is everywhere, already swamping the market. The last thing we need is it hammering into the traditional / epic fantasy as well!

I don't know if that would be a bad thing. If it gets more people reading, in my eyes, is good. It may start them down the rabbit hole leading to other genres and stuff in between. More people reading means varied tastes and maybe a demand for a more varied selection of story types, which in turn creates more opportunity for writers whose works may not fit cleanly into certain predefined genres.

 

[Feo Takahari]

This might be a stupid question, but was grimdark ever trendy enough in the literary sphere to qualify as "dying" now? Sure, it's all over the place in films and video games, but there are at most three grimdark book series that are actually popular: The Prince of Nothing, The Steel Remains, and maybe The Stone Dance of the Chameleon. Add in The Chronicles of Blood and Stone, which is snark bait incarnate, and A Song of Ice and Fire, which people call grimdark when they've never read actual grimdark, and that's still nowhere near as popular as the tide of urban fantasy that's flooding the library shelves.

 

[Mythopoet]

So according to those blog posts (the one linked and the one that one linked to) a few prominent writers of "grimdark" had some new books come out that weren't as heavy on the grimdarkness as previous books, that that means grimdark might be dying? This strikes me as either just very ignorant or it's calculated to be somewhat controversial and thereby get more clicks.

Personally, I think we'll soon be reaching the end of hyped up "trends" in publishing in favor of an abundance of books of all kinds for all readers all the time.

 

[Chessie]

A Song of Ice and Fire, which people call grimdark when they've never read actual grimdark, and that's still nowhere near as popular as the tide of urban fantasy that's flooding the library shelves.

I agree that Grimdark isn't as popular as urban fantasy, vampires, werewolves, and paranormal romance. Imo its still a small genre. Will it grow? Will it fade? Only time will tell.

Personally, Grimdark isn't my favorite type of fantasy. I've read some of it, like a couple of stories but mostly find its not for me. Like the OP, I prefer to write about a more realistic balance in life. I do think that Grimdark has its place just like more bubbly epic fantasy does. We tend to go periods in our lives where we'll consume one form of art over another, weaving in and out of different styles.

I don't know if this genre in particular is dying out, but its definitely not been as popular as some other genres. Sure, ASOIAF is very popular but that's just one piece of work and doesn't necessarily represent the popularity of its specific genre as a whole.

 

[Jabrosky]

As to what follows, my hope is that it will be mature fantasy where people can have a more balanced approach to these sorts of issues. My fear is that it'll be more paranormal romance - ugh!!! The damned stuff is everywhere, already swamping the market. The last thing we need is it hammering into the traditional / epic fantasy as well!

Would it really count as "paranormal" if it took place in a world other than our own though? The very word "paranormal" references phenomena outside empirical detection in our own world, which is why they're always so secretive in urban fantasy stories (a trope I've started to find tiresome, but maybe that would lead to a derail). In most high fantasy settings, what would appear "paranormal" for us is instead normal, uncontested empirical fact. No one in your average high fantasy world would doubt the existence of vampires, magic, or what have you anymore than they would doubt the wetness of water.

So no, I don't think you could have a "paranormal romance" in high fantasy, which already has plenty of romance between mortal humans and supernatural or magic creatures anyway. I've read that Tolkien liked to pair up human men with elven women more than once, and then you have all those older myths of gods sleeping with mortals.

Personally, I think we'll soon be reaching the end of hyped up "trends" in publishing in favor of an abundance of books of all kinds for all readers all the time.

I myself was just wondering whether today's mass media has intensified and accelerated the cycling of literary trends. Once a certain book series reaches bestseller status, its media presence is inescapable. Even villagers in the boondocks of New Guinea may end up hearing about it along with its inevitable cinematic adaptations (because Hollywood loves adaptations to go along with its reboot fetish). Inevitably this "inspires" hacks the world over to milk its themes or subject matter so they can mooch off its popularity, and thus a new sub-genre comes into being...for a few years. Then everyone gets tired of it and moves on to the next bestselling series, which leads to more cinematic adaptations, mooching hacks, and anguished New Guineans...

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm part of a grimdark group on Facebook and the feeling I get with most of the readers and writers is that they just prefer darker fiction of all kinds. Grimdark seems to be the current buzzword. I don't think that's a bad thing as long as it helps a certain group of people find fiction they like. Just like "epic fantasy" tends to be an all-encompassing word in some circles for the kind of fantasy in the vein of Tolkien and Jordan. I don't think grimdark is dying or will die. Sure, the word might, just like words do, but I think fiction that focuses on the darker aspects of life will continue to be written and read.

 

[cupiscent]

I think the world in general is very cynical right now - for lots of good reasons - and it's visible even in fantasy fiction. I attended a great panel at a convention last year on the Hero's Journey, and one of the panellists contrasted the Hero's Journey - which is essentially about the ability of the individual to cause lasting change in a system - with grimdark, which is broadly about the inability of an individual to cause meaningful change. Given the enormous problems we're facing at present, I don't find it at all difficult to see why a lot of readers might be finding stories about individual helplessness resonate with their life experience.

 

[Jabrosky]

I think the world in general is very cynical right now - for lots of good reasons - and it's visible even in fantasy fiction. I attended a great panel at a convention last year on the Hero's Journey, and one of the panellists contrasted the Hero's Journey - which is essentially about the ability of the individual to cause lasting change in a system - with grimdark, which is broadly about the inability of an individual to cause meaningful change. Given the enormous problems we're facing at present, I don't find it at all difficult to see why a lot of readers might be finding stories about individual helplessness resonate with their life experience.

Boy, can I relate to those feelings of helplessness.

But I don't know if people nowadays really are more helpless nowadays than they used to be. I think we're more aware of all the bad stuff happening in the world than we used to, thanks to advancements in mass media and the Internet. Even if you don't watch the news on TV, you'll end up reading about it anyway on your Facebook feed.

There's also the accelerating expansion of our moral circles to include vaster swathes of humanity than previous generations did. Before half a century ago, most white Americans wouldn't have felt any sympathy for starving children in Africa, Asia, or anywhere else outside their own suburbs. Hell, they would have supported slaughtering those "savages" in the name of fighting communism, or the American Dream, or whatever. It's easier to live in a bubble of happy optimism if you disregard the rest of humanity.

 

[ScipioSmith]

I think that the cyclical nature of publishing trends in the past was very much driven by the dominance of traditional publishing, and that we're going to see that breakdown as Indie becomes a greater force. If you look for kindle fantasy you can see lots of people still writing the kind of Terry Brooks/Robert Jordan fantasies that haven't been getting publishing contracts for twenty years, but clearly there is still a market for them out there.

So Grimdark night be the flavour du jour anymore but it won't die out because anyone who still wants to write it will be guaranteed a way to get it out there.

 

[Waz]

If people could actually predict the next phase of the cycles with accuracy, they'd be writing those books instead of merely guessing what they'd be.

That isn't to sweep the OP's question under the rug: it's still fun to discuss and guess. I have no problem with grimdark waning. I'm more nobledark myself. As for the next big fad in fantasy, a survey at the books for young readers probably predicts popularity for the next few years (what are they being programmed to read). Potter and Tolkien movies brought a decade dominated by spells and swords, and now urban fantasy is big. If the coming Star Wars films do well, we could see fantastical sci-fi or tech vs magic types stories growing in popularity. Sci-fi is also big in shooter games right now, another reason that sci-fi/fantasy blends could grow.

Then again, steam punk is at a crossroads of either fading or going mainstream.

 

[SineNomine]

I think that the cyclical nature of publishing trends in the past was very much driven by the dominance of traditional publishing, and that we're going to see that breakdown as Indie becomes a greater force. If you look for kindle fantasy you can see lots of people still writing the kind of Terry Brooks/Robert Jordan fantasies that haven't been getting publishing contracts for twenty years, but clearly there is still a market for them out there.

So Grimdark night be the flavour du jour anymore but it won't die out because anyone who still wants to write it will be guaranteed a way to get it out there.

I think this pretty much catches it. Subgenres will ebb and flow in popularity, but it will probably become much less distinguishable with the barriers to entry so low. Publishers are enticed to follow what is popular because they have to pursue profit in a way that individual authors don't need to. Even when a particular type of story is no longer drawing the lion's share of the eyes there will always be some form of a community of die hards that love it and want to read as much of it as they can, and there will be self-published authors aplenty to provide them the stories they want simply because they are the stories those authors want to write.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

It reminds me of lovecraft and how he wasn't recognized hardly at all when first published but over time he grew in popularity.

I like grim dark, but still believe everything has a place and there should be a balance of different genres. I consider my works grim dark to a degree but try to not make it over dramatic.