Altered Laws of Physics - feasible?

[Ifritus]

Hey there folks, got another head scratcher for you.
Still early doors planning stage for most stuff... but I’m also working at getting a prologue typed down (progress!)

But for the world building and magic side of things, I’m trying to work out if my idea is feasible, but what exactly the repercussions of it would be.:

So the idea is: the ebbs and flows of energy that drive the universe, are in a constant state of flux, because The alignments of the planets resonate with these energies and affects their potency. But they are always in some form of pattern (which lasts a varied amount of time)
In world these are called Seasons, and the actual effects are two fold:

Subtle alterations to certain laws of physics, such as the strength of Gravity, the speed of light,the thermoconductivity of heat, the strength of materials, the reactivity of molecules etc. (Lightning etc)

The second side effect is such that because these laws are altered, magic users have their magical strength in areas boosted or lowered depending on the Season.

The only season I’ve developed so far came up with is the one for the backstory/setup. Known as the Season of Frostfire.
Which is when magic users discovered the ability to create Everfire and Permafrost during a season in which Heat energy was affected (not sure how yet)
Everfire - a flame that never goes out, and cannot be put out by anyone other than the creator. Differs from normal fire in that once set it stays at a constant temp, and does not spread from the point of contact (other than Purposefully touching it with other objects)
For fuel, this fire constantly feeds off nearby sources of excess energy around it (ie - would leech the wind of its strength, magnets of their Force, and obviously continuously burns oxygen as well.

With permafrost, it’s the opposite - a frost that constantly spreads by freezing the area from the point of contact, and gets steadily colder until absolute zero. Also applies to the rule of no other magic user being able to melt it. - even if they could the Season Is over so magical strength in heat is back to normal

I’m more concerned about the real world aspects of this... what would a 10/20/30 percent increase and decrease in Gravitational Force do to the world, people and planitary orbits. And what would happen to the night sky if suddenly the speed of light was 2/3 or 4/3 of what is “normal”

Apologies if this seems like a crumbly brick wall of a post, but its one of those ones which are hard to explain

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

Do the people of your fantasy world know anything about Earth? If not, then they wouldn't be comparing themselves to Earth and the laws of physics we think apply to our own world and universe. So...if it were me, I'd describe the effects of the laws on the fantasy world, but not state the laws themselves, or try to compare them to Earth-based physics.

In other words, how do you want your world to work? Do you want the change in gravity to make people lighter? Then describe the effects of that lighter gravity, without stating that gravity on your fantasy world is lighter than Earth gravity. Let your readers imagine what laws are necessary to produce the effects you describe. Put the work on them and their imaginations. Then all you have to worry about is not writing one passage of text that contradicts another passage of text, as opposed to trying to figure out what laws are required to get the effects you want--and then having readers leaving bad reviews when they don't agree the laws you state would have the effects you describe.

Just a suggestion. Good luck with what you decide to do, and best wishes on your book!

 

[pmmg]

I am not sure why what is described above leads to increases of gravity on planets by other planets they orbit near. I suspect over time the planet would be pulled more into the direction of the planet with the large gravitational force. For example, if all of our planets increased their gravitational pull (not including the sun), I would expect the three rocky planets would not exert enough pull to counter the pull of Jupiter and Saturn and so I would expect the Earth, and other planets to drift outwards, perhaps gaining a more elliptical orbit. And perhaps over time, get pulled so far out of whack that great calamities might occur, such as collisions.

But Jupiter is far away. If the moon increased its gravity, we would have greater tidal forces, and greater flooding during high tides.

If the sun increased its pull, we would likely drift closer to it. maybe even get swallowed up.

If the speed of light increased, I could imagine a lot of things happening, but at the very least, a light year would be four times as long in distance, so something 80 light years away might only be 20 light years away. Assuming our eyes could adapt and see light in moving four times as fast, for much of the sky, I am not sure we would notice. But closer objects, such as a baseball being thrown, well we would see more light reflecting off of it. So, it might appear more vividly, but not any faster.

It might be that light at that speed could escape a black hole so we might see it...

I think somewhere in here, relativity takes over, if we all increase speed together, would any of us know?

 

[Ifritus]

Do the people of your fantasy world know anything about Earth? If not, then they wouldn't be comparing themselves to Earth and the laws of physics we think apply to our own world and universe. So...if it were me, I'd describe the effects of the laws on the fantasy world, but not state the laws themselves, or try to compare them to Earth-based physics.

In other words, how do you want your world to work? Do you want the change in gravity to make people lighter? Then describe the effects of that lighter gravity, without stating that gravity on your fantasy world is lighter than Earth gravity. Let your readers imagine what laws are necessary to produce the effects you describe. Put the work on them and their imaginations. Then all you have to worry about is not writing one passage of text that contradicts another passage of text, as opposed to trying to figure out what laws are required to get the effects you want--and then having readers leaving bad reviews when they don't agree the laws you state would have the effects you describe.

Just a suggestion. Good luck with what you decide to do, and best wishes on your book!

Actually... that makes a whole load of sense. Makes me think that I’ve been worrying/over complicating something.

Yes I’m going to say for ease of reference as the writer, I’d be referring to the laws of OUR earth, as the base-line, and what the fantasy humans believe as their laws, as true for them.
—
That actually helps me a bit with some backstory and planning (I think) since... day if gravity fluctuated to be at 90% for 5 years, then jumped to 120%.., Id imagine this would have an effect on the improvement and development of scientific theory?/advancement of technology?
—-
It actually gives me a cool idea in my head that that is how the pyramids were built (if such structures were in my world - gravity was much lighter! )

Cheers for the advice that’s definitely made me think of it from a new perspective

 

[Ifritus]

I am not sure why what is described above leads to increases of gravity on planets by other planets they orbit near. I suspect over time the planet would be pulled more into the direction of the planet with the large gravitational force. For example, if all of our planets increased their gravitational pull (not including the sun), I would expect the three rocky planets would not exert enough pull to counter the pull of Jupiter and Saturn and so I would expect the Earth, and other planets to drift outwards, perhaps gaining a more elliptical orbit. And perhaps over time, get pulled so far out of whack that great calamities might occur, such as collisions.

But Jupiter is far away. If the moon increased its gravity, we would have greater tidal forces, and greater flooding during high tides.

If the sun increased its pull, we would likely drift closer to it. maybe even get swallowed up.

If the speed of light increased, I could imagine a lot of things happening, but at the very least, a light year would be four times as long in distance, so something 80 light years away might only be 20 light years away. Assuming our eyes could adapt and see light in moving four times as fast, for much of the sky, I am not sure we would notice. But closer objects, such as a baseball being thrown, well we would see more light reflecting off of it. So, it might appear more vividly, but not any faster.

It might be that light at that speed could escape a black hole so we might see it...

I think somewhere in here, relativity takes over, if we all increase speed together, would any of us know?

Ah, well as part of the setup - there are 4 Planes/Realms in the world... the Physical is one... and the Ethereal is another, which is the Energy Plane. which is linked to the Physical, In that changes in one affect changes in the other (this is more for sorcery)
the third plane is the Astral Plane... or Pattern plane... it’s a synergic relationship between the behaviour of the forces in the Ethereal, to the patterns of the stars within the astral (its through the astral plane that sorcerers can predict what seasons might come next and roughly how long they might last)

Yeah I’m going to say it’s a blanket effect, if gravity is affected it’s as a whole, so everything would increase or decrease.

That’s an interesting question regarding light. Oh hey what would happen to a changed speed of light in water

Cue long months of Google fu and a physics degree later haha.

 

[pmmg]

Okay, well, if gravity was increased, then the distances between things would also have to increase to prevent them from pulling each other in to collision courses. So the goldilocks zone would be further out from the sun. I think this is no different than if everything was just 4 times as massive. A 4 times larger sun means we have to be further away to stay habitable and not get sucked in. If distances did not increase and gravity did, then you would be into some weird physics. Once you are there, the rules can be anything.

 

[Ifritus]

Okay, well, if gravity was increased, then the distances between things would also have to increase to prevent them from pulling each other in to collision courses. So the goldilocks zone would be further out from the sun. I think this is no different than if everything was just 4 times as massive. A 4 times larger sun means we have to be further away to stay habitable and not get sucked in. If distances did not increase and gravity did, then you would be into some weird physics. Once you are there, the rules can be anything.

I thought it would be something like that. There is going to be a “Balance” capital B. To the Order and Chaos of the Univers (big capitols = Forces of Creation)
I’m stealing from the Third Law here: for every Pull, there is a Push.

Yeah the planetary distances would fluctuate as dictated by gravity... so I’ll assume by that note of the zone thing... is there a critical distance to the sun we can get to before it’d be impossible to prevent collision other than an extreme reversal of gravity?

Say a 10 year period at 130%... we would gradually move closer? Then a flux to 70% would that allow the earth to escape out again? Or would it just stay where it is?

I suppose I should say these changes aren’t that “drastic” there’s an intermediary period where the change happens... the lull in the middle, then the period of change to the next flux again

 

[pmmg]

OG_TITLE

Found this little simulator which will show the effects of increasing gravitational force on the earth. Looks like 2X the sun's gravity is bad.

This one here was also neat, but its hard to get a working solar system out of it.

http://www.nowykurier.com/toys/gravity/gravity.html

 

[Night Gardener]

Ifritus it seems to me that you're describing a "magic system" more than [ alt-earth ] physics.

Like others have mentioned, Gravity is a force I would not want to be fluctuating with the 'space-seasons'....because gravity and space-time are intertwined. Gravitational changes don't just influence how planets and other celestrial bodies move, gravity effects time. Too much gravity (ex. Blackholes) don't just warp space-time, they stop time before destroying/consuming matter. Extreme changes, even if cyclical/seasonal, would probably result in incomprehensible disaster to life as most readers would understand it. (As your article on the sun expanding illustrates.) By the way, fluctuations in gravity would also influence atoms, photons, living cells, etc.

However.... this is fantasy. And like Michael K. Eidson stated, do your characters have to actively compare their world/physics to our IRL Earth? Readers already do this passively- that's part of the fun of reading fiction. (ex. 'Boy, I'm glad we don't live alongside dragons and trolls. Gee, I wish we could travel the universe at warp speed. )

Gravity and space-time issues aside, what you're proposing seems to be a 'magic system' that would be inextricably linked to astronomy (or astrology). Which is a very cool concept. This would make astronomers/astrologers of integeral importance to your culture. Magical potency and ability/manifestation could, in a way, be forecasted. Charted. Predicted. Calculated. Characters could find themselves in interesting predicaments because of this. A character might go to great lengths to keep their exact place, time, astrological sign, ruling planet, a secret from your enemies... Peoples in your WIP, should you chose to incorporate more principles from astrology than observational astronomy, could be more sensitive to some 'planetary seasons' than others. It seems to fit the theme of planetary-influenced physics-magic you're proposing.

Also, IMHO, the easiest way to simply side step the alt-earth to earth physics problems is to rename the planets (and constellations) to "not-earth" names. If I'm not reading about 'Jupiter' or 'Aquarius', etc. then my mind will probably stay immersed in the Universe/ Solar System you're creating, and just enjoy the physics-magic you're creating without over analyzing it to death.

I think you could use irregular or unusual planetary orbits around the sun/other planets/stars to the same literary 'effect' of what you were exploring through gravitational fluctuations. I'm sure you could come up with a fabulous alt-gravity alt-space-time for your alt-earth physics, but that might break immersion for some readers.

Developing the magical powers to manipulate gravity and space-time could be a 'holy grail' of abilities, or available only to a certain few (which could be astrologically/ astronomically pre-determined). One obvious thing that sticks out in my mind would be teleportation (and telekinesis). That would be a helluva awesome manifestation of manipulating space-time.

But, take my advice with a grain of salt: Physics is a bit of a rabbit-hole.

 

[Ifritus]

Ifritus it seems to me that you're describing a "magic system" more than [ alt-earth ] physics.

Like others have mentioned, Gravity is a force I would not want to be fluctuating with the 'space-seasons'....because gravity and space-time are intertwined. Gravitational changes don't just influence how planets and other celestrial bodies move, gravity effects time. Too much gravity (ex. Blackholes) don't just warp space-time, they stop time before destroying/consuming matter. Extreme changes, even if cyclical/seasonal, would probably result in incomprehensible disaster to life as most readers would understand it. (As your article on the sun expanding illustrates.) By the way, fluctuations in gravity would also influence atoms, photons, living cells, etc.

However.... this is fantasy. And like Michael K. Eidson stated, do your characters have to actively compare their world/physics to our IRL Earth? Readers already do this passively- that's part of the fun of reading fiction. (ex. 'Boy, I'm glad we don't live alongside dragons and trolls. Gee, I wish we could travel the universe at warp speed. )

Gravity and space-time issues aside, what you're proposing seems to be a 'magic system' that would be inextricably linked to astronomy (or astrology). Which is a very cool concept. This would make astronomers/astrologers of integeral importance to your culture. Magical potency and ability/manifestation could, in a way, be forecasted. Charted. Predicted. Calculated. Characters could find themselves in interesting predicaments because of this. A character might go to great lengths to keep their exact place, time, astrological sign, ruling planet, a secret from your enemies... Peoples in your WIP, should you chose to incorporate more principles from astrology than observational astronomy, could be more sensitive to some 'planetary seasons' than others. It seems to fit the theme of planetary-influenced physics-magic you're proposing.

Also, IMHO, the easiest way to simply side step the alt-earth to earth physics problems is to rename the planets (and constellations) to "not-earth" names. If I'm not reading about 'Jupiter' or 'Aquarius', etc. then my mind will probably stay immersed in the Universe/ Solar System you're creating, and just enjoy the physics-magic you're creating without over analyzing it to death.

I think you could use irregular or unusual planetary orbits around the sun/other planets/stars to the same literary 'effect' of what you were exploring through gravitational fluctuations. I'm sure you could come up with a fabulous alt-gravity alt-space-time for your alt-earth physics, but that might break immersion for some readers.

Developing the magical powers to manipulate gravity and space-time could be a 'holy grail' of abilities, or available only to a certain few (which could be astrologically/ astronomically pre-determined). One obvious thing that sticks out in my mind would be teleportation (and telekinesis). That would be a helluva awesome manifestation of manipulating space-time.

But, take my advice with a grain of salt: Physics is a bit of a rabbit-hole.

Yeah you’ve definite hit it on the head NG - and your thought line is pretty much in line with what I have planned anyway: I think I’ll go for the safe option of like you said, having the Astolology, and patterns of the Astral Plane affect only the potency and efficacy of magic, and not ordinary life constants.

As you’d perfectly said: physics is a rabbit hole, and currently even the ramifications of it affecting magic are nauseating at the moment, as the magic system itself is still in its infancy.

But cheers to yourself and the other; sometimes the easiest way to realise something is to be told
—
As for the calculating ability talents and potency... I never even thought of that haha. But I might pinch that, cause it defiantly fits in the theme of things, and would fit nicely as a conflict plot point between my magic users and their anti magic counterparts.

I’ve actually crossed off the idea of teleportation but I might revisit it as I develop the magic system fully.

I’m leaning towards the predetermined ability type magic, as opposed to a free for all wave you hands and do what you think magic.ie there are 3 Disciplines, within which are 3 Aspects, and within that are 3 Talents... which make up the core of the abilities available.
Eg.
Mental discipline - Thought, Action, Willpower (Aspects)
Within the Thought Aspect the three Core Talents
Speed - the ability to speed up the process of thought for oneself.
Capacity - the ability to have an increased mental capacity for detailed events.
Communication - the ability to form mental links with other people for mind to mind communication.

The words like discipline, aspect and talent are all changeable... don’t think I’m settling for them