Anita Likes Analogies WAY Too Much: or, The Prom Dress Comparison

[Caged Maiden]

I hear you, Russ, but I think you read something into my initial post that simply wasn't there. Let me show you how I mean this, because I'm not trying to argue with the points you've bought up, but I feel you've mistaken my point:

Me: Novels are like prom dresses. Some stuff from a few decades ago is still pertinent to today's readers, so i wouldn't discount a work from the 70's just because it's old, because some of it is sort of timeless.

You: Yes, but people pursuing a career shouldn't lean toward those methods because the vast majority those novels probably wouldn't be career-launching in today's market.

Me: That's true, but quality ought to be a concern for folks, rather than simply the age of a work. Sometimes we hear advice like, "Modern readers like...this or that," and some of those old works fall directly into what modern readers still read and enjoy.

You: But you don't want to tell people the wrong sort of advice, so those comments don't belong on this kind of site.

I fail to see how I've advised anyone to ignore current trends, in fact, my point has been quite the opposite. I'm saying that some older works that I read in the 90's (that were written in the 80's), are still enjoyable and well-written books that modern readers still like or might like if they read them. That was my whole point, that when a writer considers their opening, or their word count, or whether to use adverbs, or use tags other than "said", those are all fine things to consider, but that when we consider how well the opening paragraphs of The Hobbit worked in the past, it is like a special garment made an age ago, that still has beauty and value despite its outdated style.

I've not told anyone to write like Tolkein, nor to use belabored description as a platform upon which to launch their writing career. I feel like you think I've somehow given the scribes here some sort of encouragement to embrace an archaic design and ignore what is currently in fashion, and I in no way did that. It was merely a thought about how when sometimes a question is raised, for example, "How does my opening sound?" (this was my question from like 6 months ago), inevitably, someone responds with, "Well Tolkein did this, and it worked great." Well, that advice didn't help me at the time, and I doubt it will in the future, and I was simply musing about how trends affect writing and how some thing are immune to current fashions.

Here is one quote from the original post:

So one little thing I want to give you to think about is how a fantasy book from the 70's or 80's might not be the most popular book now (if people have even heard of it), but maybe they were sort of ahead of their time? Or not.

And another:

We often talk about how and why certain books work well, despite a meandering opening, or cliches, or maybe we just say, "If this wasn't a classic, no one would read it."

And another:

I just wanted to share my odd thought, that maybe trends are sort of the standards by which we're measured in a way, but maybe some things will always be immune to trends.

Then I asked this question:

What are the things you think date books to a bygone period we don't ever want to see again?

Then I commented about writing proficiency, and this was following up what we were talking about in regard to how quality of the work leads to a timelessness:

I think execution is hands down the thing that people need to focus on. But I understand that it isn't the first skill to come. I know I've mentioned it a time or two (or thirty), that it takes a million words to become proficient as a writer, and that it took me about two-million. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but the quicker a writer can become aware of how to execute simple elements (like the character self-description, the format of dialogue they'll use for a particular story, the ambience through the character filter, etc), the lower the number of words it'll take them to become proficient.

Then you said:

For instance, some people think of writing as a commercial venture. Some people feel it is a high artistic calling. Some people might want to make a living at it. Some people might do it as kind of a relaxing or fun hobby. Some people use it for gaming purposes.

Which which I agree fully, but it wasn't in the scope of my post to analyze the habits or goals of anyone specifically, just to consider and open a discussion about which elements from older work are timeless and still pertinent.

You also said:

The advice needs to fit the person asking the question's goals. A second factor is that the person is asking for advice and thus they want it, or want to hear what people think about it.[/QUOTE

Which led me to believe you thought my musing was in direct response to a single post (which it wasn't), or somehow intended to bring an individual's question or comment under scrutiny, which it also wasn't. I've asked about my opening chapter a multitude of times, and I've participated in five or more Show/ Tell threads, and I continue to give comprehensive answers to anyone's questions, always prefacing it with, "In my opinion..." or "I think..."

In no way was my goal to discuss the ethics of advice-giving or whether anyone's question had merit. I only said that we were recently discussing openings and it led me down a train of thought about how the openings of older works and newer works might be different and based upon current trends, but that I felt some older works had classic value despite the fact that they open in a way that's not fitting with current trends.

I hope this wasn't directed at me personally:

There are some people who are so naturally gifted that they can skip these steps. If you are such a naturally good writer that you can write game changing novels without much practice, I, and this place, have very little to offer you.

Because I've long been a humble (though opinionated) member of this forum and I don't know a single member here who's offered new writers more free advice and time than me. I've commiserated with people who struggle as I do, I've helped people who are looking for honest feedback (and spent countless hours doing critiques and asking nothing in return), and shared personal and intimate details of my life and experiences in the research forums. I can't see how anything I've ever said points to me feeling like I'm some great talent and feel as though this forum is somehow compromised with new writers' questions. I think if you look into my threads, you'll see the true story of my journey, one fraught with self-doubt, low self-esteem, and constant questioning whether I have what it takes. I've derived a great amount of support from this forum, and everyone who works with me from this site is my genuine friend. I've always been the champion for "get another opinion besides mine and take what you think you can use from anyone willing to look at your work/ give you advice/ with a grain of salt."

And this is what confuses me the most:

A site like this is tricky because people come and ask about things and then want to discuss them. When people ask about things I assume they are not set in their views and want advice, and we can only give them advice based on what we know. So we can try to help by discussing conventional norms (if people don't like the term rules) and why those norms are followed these days.

See, I'm all for discussing conventional norms, and I've been an intrepid voice time and again for not setting off on one's first work hoping to wow the world with something that flouts the rules. I've said it at least a dozen times here that I think writing is like a bank account. Respective of the current trends, one could view their story as a bank account, wherein each engaging character moment, each succinct and vivid description, etc. is a deposit that hooks the reader and reels him in. On the converse, each belabored description, POV slip, or meandering narrative that detracts from the story's goals, is a withdrawal.

Never in my original post or since, have I come close to saying anything like, "Throw out the rules and deny the modern tastes of readers, and look at old books because these guys really knew how to write." In fact, nothing could be further from how I truly feel. My intent was simply to say that some old works were perhaps ahead of their time, and they potentially have the same pertinence to today's readers as newly published manuscripts. My question to the scribes was, "What elements of the past are no longer viable means for today's writers, of communicating stories to today's readers?" And my main message was, "Hmm...isn't it funny how some things that are somewhat obsolete are still valuable to today's readers?"

So unfortunately, it looks like this has gone off its track, which is sort of sad to me, because I began my day with a genuinely interesting consideration of the past and how it relates to the present, but it seems my musing has been misconstrued as some sort of advice, which I find frustrating to say the least.