Do large breasts interfere with use of a two-handed sword?

[Trick]

I'll say... a woman I know... is very short and had to wear G size bras at 18 years old. She was also not remotely overweight, it was just random genetics. She took fencing when she was younger, before physically maturing, and she has said that fencing with that breast size would be very difficult without a very expensive sports bra, and even then they'd get in the way. Now, she has short arms, being of smaller stature, so a much taller, more broadly built woman (which wouldn't be far off of just being an 'average' woman, to be honest) might have less difficulty and there's certainly something to be said for being used to your own body.

Anyway, she had a breast reduction at 21 because of back pain and the fear of what might happen after having kids. Good thing too, she now has kids and she has gone up two to three cup sizes from being a C after the surgery. I know that even at that large size, she says she is more mobile/agile than in her late teens. So, I think the breast to body ratio really plays a part.

 

[Malik]

First off, I just wanted to say that this is officially my favorite thread ever, as it contains two subjects that I hold as dear as life itself.

Ahem.

That said, you're rarely "swinging" a two-handed greatsword. Most of the time it was wielded one-handed (unless it was a true, six-foot zweihander or Claymore) and a good deal of the two-handed work is done by changing grips; you can slash and parry by gripping the pommel with the webbing of your thumb and forefinger of your off-hand and levering the tip, which makes for much better point control than fighting with it like it's a baseball bat.

Most of the fighting with a two-hander is pretty much stand-up catch wrestling, as well; there's a lot of locking up the blades in a clinch, a joint lock, or prise de fer, and then tripping, shoving, throwing, punching, kicking, and head-butting until your opponent is either off-balance and wide open, or face down in the mud. Then you deliver the coup de grace, and move on to the next.

There is also a lot of half-sword work, where you grab the blade at the halfway point with your off-hand and maneuver it like a much smaller sword. There is such a spectacular amount of leverage and cutting power in those last few inches of blade that swinging for the fences isn't necessary. Although it looks cool.

Usually.

Swinging a sword with both hands in a large arc will be problematic if she is truly gifted. But she could probably work around it by coming up with other maneuvers. I'm sure she's had to compensate for her issue before. Use your imagination. I'm using mine right now, and it's awesome.

The only thing we can really do here, in the name of research, of course, is find a tremendously well-endowed woman who's good with a greatsword, put her in something revealing enough that we can see all of the, um, body mechanics (for science, of course), and have her demonstrate.

Make sure you get video of this, though, because the YouTube ad revenues will be your retirement.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

+111 rep points having an awesome imagination.

Plus, it was educational.


EDIT +1,111 to whoever posts that YouTube video.

 

[SM-Dreamer]

I don't know much about sword fighting, but as a well-endowed woman, I can tell you that my breasts get in the way a lot. I cannot cross my arms directly over my chest without them being obstructed. Playing around with a toy sword means that my arms are either brushing against or squishing my breasts, but I'm not sure how much that would impair me if I were actually using a sword for real.

Maybe I need to learn to use a sword, then get back to you

 

[spectre]

Not if you take them to an enchanter and have them augmented.

 

[AllegedObserver]

A thought comes to my mind. Women are generally (not always, but usually) not as strong as men. Especially in a society where sword play is going on. Men tend to eat specialized diets (loads of carbs and proteins to build muscle and bulk). A woman warrior would need to learn a fighting style that would give her an advantage against larger opponents. This would likely include speed and agility - two things in which large breasts would not do well with. I'm not saying its impossible. But I, strictly as a layman here and not a medieval weapons expert, would think some of the speedy maneuvers would be compromised with large breasts, possibly even throwing one off balance from time to time. Just my two cents.

 

[stephenspower]

I just realized a possible answer to the question is the experience of Simona Halep, the world #3 tennis player. Swinging a racket isn't much different than a sword in terms of range of motion, and swordplay also calls for quick feet, balance and a strong stance. As noted in her Wikipedia entry:

"At almost 18 years old, Halep decided that her large bust was interfering with her game. She underwent breast reduction to reduce her bust size to 34C from 34DD. She explained the decision, saying, 'It's the weight that troubles me. My ability to react quickly, my breasts make me uncomfortable when I play. I don’t like them in my everyday life, either. I would have gone for surgery even if I hadn’t been a sportswoman.' ...She later revealed her reduced bust size at the French Open in May 2010. Since the surgery, she has moved up over 450 places in the world rankings."

 

[Nimue]

My first reaction to this--is there a reason why this hypothetical warrior character needs to have large breasts and what kind of story would this be exactly?

Boobs can get in the way, of course. But strenuous physical exercise and muscle development, like a swordswoman would experience, tends to reduce the size of one's fat reserves. Also, restrictive garments are often worn underneath armor for men, and could flatten things out fairly well for women. Breasts aren't water balloons (with, you know, some exceptions): don't underestimate the squishiness.

 

[AllegedObserver]

Boobs can get in the way, of course. But strenuous physical exercise and muscle development, like a swordswoman would experience, tends to reduce the size of one's fat reserves.

I had thought of this when I wrote the previous post, however not being a medically trained person, I felt it might be wrong in saying so. I agree with you about the type of story angle, however. Unless its an issue of Heavy Metal or something, most stories these are a little more realistic when it comes to such things.

don't underestimate the squishiness.

I promise... I won't. :smile:

 

[2WayParadox]

Moving away from the two-hander issue for a bit here.

Say you have a well-endowed female character, it could be a warrior but it doesn't necessarily have to be (she could be undercover in a harem for example). What would be her ideal weapon in a world where she has a good chance to run into people wielding two-handers, most likely by men? I'm not asking to take concealment or anything into account, just pure killing effectiveness in as many situations as possible.

 

[Butterfly]

What would be her ideal weapon in a world where she has a good chance to run into people wielding two-handers, most likely by men?

I'd say her breasts as they are clearly her weapons of mass distraction.

 

[glutton]

Moving away from the two-hander issue for a bit here.

Say you have a well-endowed female character, it could be a warrior but it doesn't necessarily have to be (she could be undercover in a harem for example). What would be her ideal weapon in a world where she has a good chance to run into people wielding two-handers, most likely by men? I'm not asking to take concealment or anything into account, just pure killing effectiveness in as many situations as possible.

If you want to keep her away from the men a spear or ranged weapon like a crossbow could be good.

OTOH she could just be stronger than most guys she meets and wield a giant two-hander herself XD

 

[wordwalker]

Reach is a good answer, yes. Pole arms or ranged attacks. (Just don't give her throwing daggers until you look up how absurd those are.)

Or if she really wants to show off her speed, we've had some discussion of dual-wielding. It seems like it's feasible if she's truly amdidextrous and trains twice as hard, and would let her carve someone up as long as she can block his attack.

Actually, I think a greatsword has enough leverage that a strong wielder can stagger (and then finish off) someone much stronger with one solid hit, as long as she has the skill to land that hit. (Vital if the other guy has his own greatsword and more power.) Some of our more experienced fighters can weigh in here.

I think the only style she might have trouble with is the most common, good old weapon-and-shield. It's a good mode, safe enough that it gives a skilled fighter time to outmaneuver her foes-- but when you don't have stunt coordinators around, the obvious maneuver is always to compare your weight against your enemy's and consider just bashing them off-balance, shield against shield. A woman might be skilled, strong, and know how to use her strength effectively-- but if you give her a shield and don't make her literally as massive as a man, every soldier she fights will use that on her.

 

[glutton]

I think the only style she might have trouble with is the most common, good old weapon-and-shield. It's a good mode, safe enough that it gives a skilled fighter time to outmaneuver her foes-- but when you don't have stunt coordinators around, the obvious maneuver is always to compare your weight against your enemy's and consider just bashing them off-balance, shield against shield. A woman might be skilled, strong, and know how to use her strength effectively-- but if you give her a shield and don't make her literally as massive as a man, every soldier she fights will use that on her.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't necessarily be a much bigger issue than for many male fantasy heroes who often aren't described as particularly large. There probably isn't a massive weight difference between the typical skinny teenage boy hero and say a 160 lb female battle tank, which isn't overly huge.

 

[Surad]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread thoroughly, so I don't know if this has been mentioned.

It's actually an interesting question. I'm not that sure... but if it helps, here's an interesting tidbit. During the filming of Conan the Barbarian in 1982, the director told Arnold to relax his chest workouts because his chest muscles were getting so big that they were actually interfering with his ability to handle the two-handed sword in the movie.

So... at least for men, it's something that needs concern. Having a hulked out bodybuilder physique can actually put them at a disadvantage. I would think that for women with very large breasts it would interfere, but I don't know how big they have to be in order for that to happen.

 

[2WayParadox]

I guess a decent arbitrary line for 'big enough to be cumbersome' would be a D cup, unless the woman is small.

 

[Ruby]

Hi, I'm trying to decide if this is serious thread or not.

Are we discussing men with big breasts and two-handed swords or just women?

Of course, if our hypothetical female warrior has the dimensions of a Barbie she would probably topple over, with or without a sword.

Perhaps, our female warrior lives in medieval times. I don't think bras would have been invented so how would she manage? More research is needed!

Btw, is there an equivalent thread for men with certain attributes experiencing difficulties when wearing armour/armor?

I've just seen the latest Hobbit film, and that female elf seemed to be able to kill a lot of orcs with her sword. I can't remember, did she use both hands or not? Perhaps, this isn't a problem for elves.

 

[glutton]

Somewhat off topic, I did a search just now and found this picture...

So adorable, reminds me a bit of my character Blackbird. Sword size is about right. XD

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Purely on the greatsword versus sword and board, I would think the latter would be most effective. If your woman is quick enough with her shield to block the guys greatsword attacks, the balls are in her court. There's a couple of reasons for this. The first is simple exhaustion. How many blows can someone with a greatsword manage before he's gasping for breath and tiring? Also since his sword is larger and heavier, it's got to be slower. That means if the woman is quick she has the chance to strike back at the man after his blow is deflected and while he's open. And as one other point, stagger can affect both parties. If she can deflect the blow properly, she may actually stagger him.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Caged Maiden]

hey guys, I just wanted to ask a question/ raise another point about armor (I'm not sure which yet).

Okay, so historical plate mail was pointed in the center like a ship's hull for lack of analogy, so blades would not pierce the center, and instead slide off. Just like helms, shields, probably other stuff I can't think of right now. Well, I'm a fencer too, and there are a few things I've noticed because we don't wear metal armor, or plate specifically. We wear soft armor over everything else, say, I have a chain shirt, my doublet goes over that, but I've seen a lot of women fencing and I just wanted to add to the armor question. Do you notice that trend (of the sword point being guided to the sternum) with soft armor over the plastic? I'm just curious. I use the two small plastic cups and they work fine for me, but getting struck in the sternum or well, anywhere else with a stout blow leaves a pretty good bruise and isn't fun. I've only had to walk off the field injured once, but that was a really nasty blow to my lower abdomen and there really isn't any protection for that ( I might have to make some because I was out for almost four months).

Okay, now to curvier women.

The women I've seen fencing. Okay, I'm strictly speaking observation here, not anything else. The good fencers tend to be tall men who are rather thin. Next, the shorter guys who use speed and teamwork to bring down the guys who obviously have the reach advantage and only skill can compensate for that because their reach isn't going to grow seven inches unless they grow monkey arms. Okay, so as far as women are concerned, the best women I've seen tend to have an average body type. They aren't thin (I'm pretty thin, but I'm 5'3" and 125 and I'm not an ideal body type for fencing) but they are taller and rather average. Those women, with C or D cup breasts are not hindered at all by what we do, which isn't inline fencing, but sword-fighting in rugged terrain, rain, muddy banks, open fields in teams, etc.

The thing I was considering was where my curvier companions fit into this thing. Okay, and again, this is my observation alone...but my curvier companions are not the athletes that the average women tend to be. Now, that being said, I do not know any women who have really big breasts, that aren't also quite round everywhere else. I know it's possible because I've seen it on many women outside fencing, but we don't have any in our group. I'd be interested in knowing how often that occurs. Like, in 150 lb women, what are their average cup size and what is the extreme limit naturally. Then what are those percentages. Because I think that's the research that would most help in determining this sort of thing. It's crazy the number of average women who have been altered now. Many more than one might guess, because most just "enhance". I knew a really beautiful, tall woman who looked just stunning, but for some reason, she didn't feel as "big" as she wanted to be, so she got "enhanced" and you'd never guess it because she selected a D cup that looked perfectly natural, but my point is, a lot more women have D or DD cups now than ever before for two reasons, one, we're a society that have more than enough food, two, we have estrogen flowing in our water sources because of decades of pesticide and those synthetic hormones from our environments cause all manner of glandular problems they didn't have 100 years ago, and three, because surgery is huge and women who don't like how they look at 18 can go get "enhanced" and no one ever knows the difference.

As far as warriors, I think this goes down to a single thing we aren't really touching on, but body type. There are endomorphs, ectomorphs, and mesomorphs, and all around the mesomorphs have it. For the men and for the women, they are the strongest body type on the fencing field. While ectomorphic men have the very best reach advantage possible and therefore have to work less than everyone else and expend less energy in most situations, the men and women with greatest stamina tend to prevail in the end of our sometimes 90 minutes of little rest. Now, I know we're talking about specifically breasts, but I think we have that base covered like one of those expensive sports bras I've been hearing all about. For those of us writing sword-fighters, I just wanted to add that one thing in there, because while street brawls tend to be settled in four minutes or less, field battles can rage for much longer. Skill plays part in the equation, body type, conditioning, and mettle. It's like MMA, really. Except when we play, when you "die" you don't really lose, you run 100 yards to your resurrection point and get back in the battle, or you sit on the sidelines and wait for the next round. My instructor is a man of 5'8"-ish and he's hard core. Super skilled and has a lot of heart. He has to work to overcome the reach of one of our guys who's 6'4" and fights with a 45" blade and a 43". I mean, reach is the game in fencing. I'm not sure what the game is in two-handed swords because I've never used one, but I'd say the more convincing the rest of her accumulated package of skills/ training/ tenacity/ whatever, the more convincing she'll be as a character, despite her figure.