pmmg
Myth Weaver
Its things like this that make me fear one day kids will actually believe that Greedo did shoot first.
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Do you find immersive and in-depth world-building tedious in written novels?
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Aldarion
Archmage
For me, it is essentially the basis of the story. If I don't enjoy either the story or the worldbuilding, I won't enjoy the book.
Lobotomizer
Dreamer
worldbuilding is this best part of books imo
Have you ever read a story that was "too much" for you? And have you ever read a story where the world building was just right?
I suggest you go back to those two books and take a critical look. How many pages or words per page or other metric was in the one versus the other? Was it sheer quantity that is the key variable? Or was it something else? Get more specific. Was it descriptions of physical setting? Descriptions of characters? Or maybe it wasn't description that was the problem, maybe it was too much history, or too much about the religion and the gods.
Once you have something more specific, maybe take a look at other books. Do the same things put you off there? Congratulations! You've found the problem! Now, when you write your own book, you can adjust accordingly.
Pay no attention to those who like or dislike. There will always be some of each, no matter which way you jump. But you have to satisfy your own standards first, and you can't really do that until you know what your standards are.
I *tried* to read a few books that went overboard with the worldbuilding. They looked interesting from the blurbs: intrigue and action set in a detailed world. The first chapter was 90% worldbuilding. Ok. I could live with that. The second chapter was 80% worldbuilding. That started to drag. Four chapters in, and the worldbuilding still outnumbered the action. It was tedious, so I called it quits. That was a mass market paperback from a major publisher.
I can't get through The Hobbit. The dinner party kills me every time. I can't handle most male writers in English from about the Regency to 1963. Nathaniel Hawthorn and his opening pages. Yes, yes, the carriage went through a puddle and you spent 3 pages talking about the puddle while the carriage is now in the next county. You go, oh so clever you.
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Personally, yes, balance is good, but what's more important is your narrative and how much description you need, or is expected by readers of your genre... to an extent. Like I said, I write all fancy pants in Urban Fantasy. It's a risk and a careful balancing act, but I pull it off because it suits my voice and my team's voice and our goals for the series. In other words, we all murmur to the Gods of Publishing Rejection:
You do you.
Closer to keeping the worldbuilding relevant to the action. A paragraph or three of history worked into a scene where a character is grappling with a relevant ancient mystery is fine (aka, treasure hunting, or figuring out why Character X tanked the family). Likewise, entering a new city or other local can warrant some description. (What does the character see? What is with the giant monument?) The odd reference to distant lands is fine. But page after page of worldbuilding not relevant to what is going on? Nope.
Just be aware that things like "balance" and "relevant" are going to vary from one reader to the next. Heck, they'll vary for the exact same reader at different stages of life. You can't control any of that. All you can do is write what pleases you, as best you can.
The advice here is all excellent. Just to grab--somewhat unfairly, I admit--from the closest post, by all means work a paragraph of history into a scene with some action to it. But is two paragraphs too much? Three? Four? The answer will be yes for some and no for others. So, absolutely do try to make the world building relevant not merely to the world or to the story, but to the particular scene. The goal is to piss off as few readers as possible. <g>
The advice here is all excellent. Just to grab--somewhat unfairly, I admit--from the closest post, by all means work a paragraph of history into a scene with some action to it. But is two paragraphs too much? Three? Four? The answer will be yes for some and no for others. So, absolutely do try to make the world building relevant not merely to the world or to the story, but to the particular scene. The goal is to piss off as few readers as possible. <g>
Prince of Spires
Istar
What exactly do you mean by having immersive and in depth worldbuilding in a written novel?
Is it that the author knows all the important rules and religions and countries etc, and that this shows in the writing? Or is it that the novel has chapter upon chapter of encyclopedia entries on the world? Pretty big difference.
Immersing a reader in your novel is always good. If someone is reading your book and after three hours looks up and wonders where the time went then you've done your job as a writer.
Worldbuilding can help with that immersion. However, that doesn't mean that you need to write everything you know about your world in the novel. Rather, it means picking the correct details, feeding it to the reader in moderation, and useing all senses.
Is it that the author knows all the important rules and religions and countries etc, and that this shows in the writing? Or is it that the novel has chapter upon chapter of encyclopedia entries on the world? Pretty big difference.
Immersing a reader in your novel is always good. If someone is reading your book and after three hours looks up and wonders where the time went then you've done your job as a writer.
Worldbuilding can help with that immersion. However, that doesn't mean that you need to write everything you know about your world in the novel. Rather, it means picking the correct details, feeding it to the reader in moderation, and useing all senses.
Karlin
Sage
I wonder if we are using the term "Worldbuilding" incorrectly. I thought worldbuilding was an activity that the author undertakes, what the reader experiences is a result of the resultant world. Maybe we're talking about excessive description
Aldarion
Archmage
This:
Worldbuilding is best when you don't notice it unless you pay attention. Just because you may have hundred pages of history of a kingdom in your writing notes, doesn't mean you have to include it all in the text. Look at Tolkien: he wrote history of his world from the creation until the end of the Third Age, and all his stories cross-reference that... but in his main stories (The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings) you will find only traces of that in the story: as snippets relevant to the current events in the story (e.g. Council of Elrond), as a background to the action (e.g. ruins Hobbits find in Rhuadur) and as side comments of characters in appropriate moments (e.g. Aragorn's quick lesson on history of the Rohirrim as they go to meet Theoden). These snippets make the story extremely rich, but the fact that they are snippets means that they never draw attention to themselves and don't actually cut off the action.
Incanus
Auror
Exactly. I make a clear distinction between world-building and description. They are two different things, except when you are using description to describe the built world. (And then there is backstory, which I think is a whole other thing.)
I've seen this come up a number of times, so it is fairly common.
I would likely be unhappy with the depiction of too much description of grass that A.E. Lowan mentioned early in this thread. But I've not seen this in professionally produced novels, and not very much in amateur work.
For the O.P.--get a few people to read some of your chapters and see what they say about the world-building (and/or description).
Let me introduce you to the woman who broke my youthful love affair with SHOWING ALL THE THINGS! Our Lady of Grass.
https://www.amazon.com/Clan-Cave-Bear-Bonus-Content-ebook/dp/B00466HQ2Y
And the woman who gave it all to me, and then turned around and gave me even more worlds of wonder. Only by then I had the shiny beaten off of me and I could begin to understand the craft at work beneath the meandering river of words.
https://www.amazon.com/Dragonflight-Dragonriders-Pern-Anne-McCaffrey-ebook/dp/B000FBFOCI/
In the end, though, the only one who could rescue me from sounding like a fluffy, starry-eyed git was me.
Incanus
Auror
I don't really understand the references well enough to follow this, I'm afraid. I don't know what all the 'grass' stuff is about. But it sort of sounds like you used to write with more description when starting out (based on something you liked), and then got out of that habit (based on something else you liked).
It's a matter of preference for all of us. I like a good amount of detail and a full-spectrum experience. I find some writing too thin in this regard, but some other stuff a bit too thick. But that Goldilocks zone is not the same for all of us.
It's a matter of preference for all of us. I like a good amount of detail and a full-spectrum experience. I find some writing too thin in this regard, but some other stuff a bit too thick. But that Goldilocks zone is not the same for all of us.
I apologize. You're right, I was assuming and could have given less cheek and more background. More background... It's within the realms of possibility that I may someday get past my clarity issues - and my partners would be ever-so-grateful - and it's something I'm always working on improving. The first link was to the first in series of the most notoriously bloated page counts in Speculative Fiction. I started reading this series when I was 8 years-old and very much beginning that search for teachers besides my author mom. Auel starts heavy. She gets progressively worse and worse until even I, who bought her irregularly published work until I had to throw my hands up and give her up around 12 and just let the rolling grasses to their thing without me. The cheek? You can take my cheekiness when you take my freedom.
Also, I have a bad habit of speaking in movie quotes and lol cats. I should be stopped.
Second link is Anne McCaffrey. My dad handed me Dragonflight when I was 9 and by the end of the book I knew I'd write fantasy. I learned style and mechanics and emotion from her. Not much in the way of tension and the more primal urges, but it was a good foundation and I'm still building on it to this day.
Exactly.
I can't even pretend to understand how this statement has anything to do with a discussion on detailed worldbuilding, and I pretend at least ten things before breakfast. That being said, it looks like I'll do it, anyway. Han shot first. Star Wars: A New Hope was my first movie. The Empire Strikes Back was my sister's. The Return of the Jedi was my brother's. Han shot first and the edited for rerelease version fails Han and turns his situation with Jabba into a fairly dumb side quest. It pulls his teeth, because apparently Lucas had, what? Remorse for corrupting a generation who would go forth into the world and shoot first?
Sounds like a bunch of badass little kids to me.
So, that's my take. Why are we talking about this now?
pmmg
Myth Weaver
You posted:
If we dont preserve the original Star Wars, kids may think Greedo shot first. Many kids already do... its a tragedy.
First movie? Really?
I dont know my first, but it was probably snow white or bambi.
textual criticism
n.Techniques that use varying copies to determine the authentic content of the original work.If we dont preserve the original Star Wars, kids may think Greedo shot first. Many kids already do... its a tragedy.
First movie? Really?
I dont know my first, but it was probably snow white or bambi.
Yes! Sorry, I apparently let out my brain for the day. Now I see the connection.
It really is. It was a stupid, juvenile change brought on by the fairly baseless worry that Han shooting first would make him unlikeable. Lucas has never really gotten out of a rejected nerd's mindset and given the chance to whittle out anything that might make him look bad, even if only to his own eyes. That's also how we were blessed with Jar Jar. Joy.
I was weaned on SciFi. My mom and dad had a bit of a tug-o-war over what kind or writer I was going to be. He was a life-long Trekkie, and my mom was a satirist. He gave her a lot of material. So my dad, being my dad, cheated. And now here I am.
