Editors and their genre knowledge

[Mad Swede]

Editors outside your genre won't know what sells in that genre.

Editors have nothing to do with selling books. Not to publishers and not to readers. The editors job is to help the author improve the book in some way. Selling the book is the job of the publisher (with support from the author) or the author (if the book is self-published).

 

[Foxkeyes]

OK

 

[pmmg]

Well...I don't expect my Editor to be the top source for things outside their area, but I would expect they might know a little bit about it, just as I know a little bit about what they do. If they work in the industry, they likely have friends or contacts in other areas, and if there had something to say about it, I would listen. If the editor was not capable of saying to me, these changes should make the book more marketable, what do they really have to offer? They are part of the whole make it marketable chain.

If the editor does not have somewhat of a finger on the pulse of their genre, they may not be quite up to speed with stuff that works in it.

Just as an example, my editor does not seem to know what the word 'slew' means. If she had read Conan, she would know it. People who read fantasy will know this word. People who are coming in from other genre's might not. So, her comments may help with catching non-fantasy readers, but its not needed for fantasy ones.

 

[Mad Swede]

Well...I don't expect my Editor to be the top source for things outside their area, but I would expect they might know a little bit about it, just as I know a little bit about what they do. If they work in the industry, they likely have friends or contacts in other areas, and if there had something to say about it, I would listen. If the editor was not capable of saying to me, these changes should make the book more marketable, what do they really have to offer? They are part of the whole make it marketable chain.

Your editor is supposed to improve your story in different ways, and in your case it seems to be about developmental editing. That sort of editing is about story structure, characterisation etc. It has nothing to do with marketability. It is the publisher (which might be you yourself) who decides what makes a book marketable, not the editor.

If you read Writer Beware on the SFWA website (and you should!) then you'll know that one of the major warning signs of a scam is editors who offer services connected to marketing (like editing your book to make it more marketable).

If the editor does not have somewhat of a finger on the pulse of their genre, they may not be quite up to speed with stuff that works in it.

Well, that depends if you want to follow conventions in a genre and produce yet another book in the same mould as the rest, or if you want to challenge those conventions. It's us as the authors who are supposed to know what we want to write and how that fits into the genre, not the editor.

Just as an example, my editor does not seem to know what the word 'slew' means. If she had read Conan, she would know it. People who read fantasy will know this word. People who are coming in from other genre's might not. So, her comments may help with catching non-fantasy readers, but its not needed for fantasy ones.

You mean that your editor didn't think your use of the word "slew" was appropriate, and you don't agree with her. That isn't the same as not knowing what the word means. I would go a lot further and suggest that you are being very arrogant in accusing a professional editor of not knowing what a word means. I would never say or imply that to or about any professional editor.

I wouldn't use the word "slew" as a way of saying someone was killed in the English versions of my books, in part because I think there are better and more interesting ways of expressing that.

 

[The Dark One]

There are a whole slew of ways of using slew...

 

[pmmg]

Slew they say.

 

[Finchbearer]

Being stuck on the fact that your editor pointed out the word slew, for whatever reason, seems to be a sticking point for you pmmg. To me, it is not a word I have come across in the fantasy fiction I have read. Not saying it isn’t a word, however your reference to Conan makes me think of something more like retro pulp fiction than a fantasy book that is going to speak to a modern audience.

How often have you used the word, is it just one random word, or used multiple times? If I was reading a fantasy novel and came across the word slew, I probably would not think twice about it, but if it crops up every other chapter, it might become a word that would stick in my mind as odd.

Not saying your editor is right and you’re wrong, but if you are looking for a fresh perspective in this editor, then it could be a valuable insight, unless pulp fiction is what you’re going for, which I suppose will attract an audience that is looking for nostalgia.

If you’re not feeling it with this editor then you’ve got no obligation to her, find someone else that you can get along with and have a better working relationship.

 

[pmmg]

Well, I am trying to give her a fair chance... Not sure if she is a keeper or not. But it is expensive to go shopping.

 

[pmmg]

Being stuck on the fact that your editor pointed out the word slew, for whatever reason, seems to be a sticking point for you pmmg. To me, it is not a word I have come across in the fantasy fiction I have read. Not saying it isn’t a word, however your reference to Conan makes me think of something more like retro pulp fiction than a fantasy book that is going to speak to a modern audience.

How often have you used the word, is it just one random word, or used multiple times? If I was reading a fantasy novel and came across the word slew, I probably would not think twice about it, but if it crops up every other chapter, it might become a word that would stick in my mind as odd.

Not saying your editor is right and you’re wrong, but if you are looking for a fresh perspective in this editor, then it could be a valuable insight, unless pulp fiction is what you’re going for, which I suppose will attract an audience that is looking for nostalgia.

If you’re not feeling it with this editor then you’ve got no obligation to her, find someone else that you can get along with and have a better working relationship.

Well, its not an everyday word, but it makes it rounds in fantasy fiction.

Some quotes from Mr. Tolkien.

Before the rising of the sun, Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. ~Tolkien

"But Melkor was also there, and he came to the house of Fëanor and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. " ~Tolkien

“Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried: 'Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive...” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

“And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Anyway...I dwell on it cause its the example I used. There are some others. But...I will give it consideration when I get to that point in the editing. I am tying to invoke a more epic language, maybe that is the whole issue

 

[Finchbearer]

So your consensus is that if Tolkien did it then it’s okay?

I’m probably going to annoy you by pointing out that Conan the Warrior and the works of Tolkien were all written pre 1970, which is to say that they were written a long time ago.

Now I’m not saying that as classics they don’t have their significance and place in pop culture, but they have been what many fantasy creators have derived their work from.

Perhaps by your editor challenging you on certain things such as slew could be a fruitful exercise.

 

[pmmg]

Not really my consensus. That Tolkien used it is just proof that such a word exists, and fantasy readers are likely to have encountered it.

Its only okay if it matches the voice in my story. If the editor had been saying, 'this word is out of place, and does not fit with the rest of the prose', then that would be fair. But her comments, again, were of the sort she did not know what the word meant. She said "is this the right word?' She may be thinking it meas 'a lot of something'. I had a whole slew of magazines on my desk. Her not understanding its use leads me to think she is not well versed in fantasy. Anyone versed in Fantasy, should have read Tolkien. The word is also commonly used in the Bible. I picked her partially cause she was a christian fiction editor.

My story's voice is not a modern one. It is designed to be immersive. Maybe it fails....I think more likely, the audience is probably narrower. But...I am aiming at those versed in fantasy. In a similar way, Tolkien is also writing in an epic voice, and not a plainly spoken one.

I'd like to say she was challenging me, but I cant say as we have gotten to that relationship yet. I sent her a bunch of questions. I hope she answers them tonight. My read is, she is not really interested, or is interested in something else more.

All of this is just one word though. She has challenged me to show more, and on things I felt were self-explanatory. I have been adding more descriptive sensations (while not losing the voice). I will admit, I think I like it better. My big concern is can I change the story enough, without redoing all of it, to capture her biggest comment, which is that the romance portion could be developed more. That may take a bit of working under the hood. If I fix that, and have a smattering of Slay and Slew in the story, that wont be a show stopper.

 

[pmmg]

Another is the word Grey, which she has corrected several times to Gray.

She wrote, Grey is old and somber, Gray is a color.

Well...I like old and somber but....that is not really true. Grey is a UK spelling, and Gray is a US spelling. I dont think there is any difference otherwise, other than something it may emote, as she suggested. I am not sure there is a real difference between the two.

 

[Finchbearer]

I would always use grey, being British as I am. Gray sounds like a name rather than a colour.

 

[Ban]

You know, I had to think about that. Leaving aside her comments about structure, characterisation etc (and there's always some), what she does is to ask questions about what I've written, and they're sort of indirect questions. Things like "have you thought about...?" or "was there any reason you wrote <it> like that?" Things like that. She doesn't give guidelines or definitions, she just gently challenges and nudges me. It tends to turn into a discussion over several cups of coffee (this is Sweden, after all).

I'd rather enjoy being a Swedish editor I reckon. Prodding around and poking holes is great fun, and I already drink enough coffee to kick it with Honoré de Balzac, so I seem to be halfway there.

 

[Mad Swede]

Not really my consensus. That Tolkien used it is just proof that such a word exists, and fantasy readers are likely to have encountered it.

Its only okay if it matches the voice in my story. If the editor had been saying, 'this word is out of place, and does not fit with the rest of the prose', then that would be fair. But her comments, again, were of the sort she did not know what the word meant. She said "is this the right word?' She may be thinking it meas 'a lot of something'. I had a whole slew of magazines on my desk. Her not understanding its use leads me to think she is not well versed in fantasy. Anyone versed in Fantasy, should have read Tolkien. The word is also commonly used in the Bible. I picked her partially cause she was a christian fiction editor.

OK, if she as a professional editor isn't sure you're using the right word then maybe you need to think about your sentence structures. It may be that in the context of your prose the meaning of the word slew is unclear. Bear in mind that whilst slew can be the past tense of slay, it can also mean to turn or slide violently or uncontrollably. It can also mean to move something sideways, as well as being US slang for several things.

As for saying that anyone versed in fantasy should have read Tolkien, that is incredibly patronising. I wouldn't make that assumption, certainly not when it comes to younger readers. Tolkien's prose isn't the easiest to get into, and many people don't even finish reading The Fellowship of the Ring.

My story's voice is not a modern one. It is designed to be immersive. Maybe it fails....I think more likely, the audience is probably narrower. But...I am aiming at those versed in fantasy. In a similar way, Tolkien is also writing in an epic voice, and not a plainly spoken one.

Hmm. Tolkien was a philologist and had a very specific aim in mind when he wrote the Lord of the Rings. He was trying for a modern version of Beowulf, and that informed the style he chose to write in. That style is nothing like the style he uses in The Hobbit or The Father Christmas Letters.

I'd suggest that perhaps you don't need to write in a similar style. An immersive book can be written in a much more modern style, as David Eddings did with The Belgariad. Take a look at T H White's The Once and Future King or perhaps Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle.

I'd like to say she was challenging me, but I cant say as we have gotten to that relationship yet. I sent her a bunch of questions. I hope she answers them tonight. My read is, she is not really interested, or is interested in something else more.

Maybe she's busy.

And maybe you've not quite got the feedback you expected. The first time a professional editor looks at your first book is incredibly tough. The text often gets nitpicked and criticised in a way you've never experienced before, and that can be difficult to accept. Your work, which you've spent som much time on and which you're so proud of, gets turned inside out and upside down. It isn't easy, but take it from me that reading through the editors comments and thinking about them with an open mind can really improve your writing.

All of this is just one word though. She has challenged me to show more, and on things I felt were self-explanatory. I have been adding more descriptive sensations (while not losing the voice). I will admit, I think I like it better. My big concern is can I change the story enough, without redoing all of it, to capture her biggest comment, which is that the romance portion could be developed more. That may take a bit of working under the hood. If I fix that, and have a smattering of Slay and Slew in the story, that wont be a show stopper.

Ah, romance. Yes, my editor told me to develop the romance more too. And she was right. The thing about romance is that it can't happen too fast, you have to make the readers believe and accept that the couple should be together. That means that the relationship has to be seen to develop, you have to show the reasons that lead to their feelings for one another, because only then do the readers accept that they become a couple.

 

[pmmg]

OK, if she as a professional editor isn't sure you're using the right word then maybe you need to think about your sentence structures. It may be that in the context of your prose the meaning of the word slew is unclear. Bear in mind that whilst slew can be the past tense of slay, it can also mean to turn or slide violently or uncontrollably. It can also mean to move something sideways, as well as being US slang for several things.

As for saying that anyone versed in fantasy should have read Tolkien, that is incredibly patronising. I wouldn't make that assumption, certainly not when it comes to younger readers. Tolkien's prose isn't the easiest to get into, and many people don't even finish reading The Fellowship of the Ring.

Hmm. Tolkien was a philologist and had a very specific aim in mind when he wrote the Lord of the Rings. He was trying for a modern version of Beowulf, and that informed the style he chose to write in. That style is nothing like the style he uses in The Hobbit or The Father Christmas Letters.

I'd suggest that perhaps you don't need to write in a similar style. An immersive book can be written in a much more modern style, as David Eddings did with The Belgariad. Take a look at T H White's The Once and Future King or perhaps Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle.

Maybe she's busy.

And maybe you've not quite got the feedback you expected. The first time a professional editor looks at your first book is incredibly tough. The text often gets nitpicked and criticised in a way you've never experienced before, and that can be difficult to accept. Your work, which you've spent som much time on and which you're so proud of, gets turned inside out and upside down. It isn't easy, but take it from me that reading through the editors comments and thinking about them with an open mind can really improve your writing.

Ah, romance. Yes, my editor told me to develop the romance more too. And she was right. The thing about romance is that it can't happen too fast, you have to make the readers believe and accept that the couple should be together. That means that the relationship has to be seen to develop, you have to show the reasons that lead to their feelings for one another, because only then do the readers accept that they become a couple.

Well...I feel I could go through all of this and pick at it, but....the truth is, for you to be in the right context, you would have to be me looking at my edit.

I am not writing in Tolkien's style. In fact, I hate his style.

And I am accepting most of her changes in the text. A few....

The Romance is actually the opposite problem I think. It is moving too slowly, and the story runs out before it gets to the good stuff. I am not inclined to add more scenes and length. But....Its going to be hard to address.


My issue with the editor is I cannot gauge her interest. She may be busy, but I am paying her. I am willing accommodate her if she is busy, so long as its not hurting my effort. But if she is not interested, I wish she would say so. In the end, something will happen and I will feel like this will work out, or its becoming too unproductive to continue. I don't want to pester her, but I also don't want to be left hanging. Overall, I feel a little disappointed, but I am not sure if that is fair. I was not sure what to really expect. So, I am withholding any real judgement about it.

So far, I would say, most of what she tagged, seemed good, and I used it. Some I reworded or rewrote to avoid her issue.

The scene I just looked at she fist marked up with red, and then made a comment that it was too passive. Well...do you want me to fix the red stuff, or do you want me to make it not passive? No point in the corrections if its all gonna change?

 

[pmmg]

I also did not see your previous post above.

You seem to think I am not giving the editor enough respect. I am questioning her, as I should. And some of what she has provided has lent itself to raising those questions. She may be entirely right. And she may even be right about the way I use Slew, or other words. When I get to those portions I will look at them with some consideration. But she's not god.

I believe you have not accurately what I have been saying, and how I feel about the whole editor experience. And the stuff we post up on a forum page, is always less than the whole set of thoughts. And mostly, it focuses on the bad, cause its the stuff that makes one complain. I am going to stop answering posts about slew, whether the editor is right, or I am, or something else is, I have my reasons, and its my story. I'll make the last call.

 

[Mad Swede]

I also did not see your previous post above.

You seem to think I am not giving the editor enough respect. I am questioning her, as I should. And some of what she has provided has lent itself to raising those questions. She may be entirely right. And she may even be right about the way I use Slew, or other words. When I get to those portions I will look at them with some consideration. But she's not god.

No, an editor is not God - but they do have a very specific role in producing a better book. I've been working with my editor for several years so I've had time to settle into a constructive and very friendly relationship with my her. I've also worked with other editors for various academic projects. In my experience you must treat professional editors (and any other professonal you work with in publishing) with respect, and you must understand what their role is. Yes, you should discuss their comments and suggestions and yes, you as the author do have the final say. But you should be working together.

Remember that it is the first time your editor has worked with you, and she is also judging you - if she thinks you're being disrepectful to her it might result in other freelance editors not wanting to work with you. Be patient and be diplomatic!

I believe you have not accurately what I have been saying, and how I feel about the whole editor experience. And the stuff we post up on a forum page, is always less than the whole set of thoughts. And mostly, it focuses on the bad, cause its the stuff that makes one complain. I am going to stop answering posts about slew, whether the editor is right, or I am, or something else is, I have my reasons, and its my story. I'll make the last call.

This seems to be the first time you have ever used an editor. I know from my own experience what a shock that can be, and how hard it can be receive some of the comments.

My advice to you, based on my own experiences, is to think carefully about all of her comments. Yes, some of the detailed comments can seem a little odd. But you should step back and look to see if there are any common themes in her detailed comments. Is there something there which suggests that there is an aspect to your writing which should potentially be changed? If there are some common overarching themes, do these tie in with any overall comments she makes about the book? It's when you start getting into that sort of discussion with your editor that your writing really starts to improve.

 

[Mad Swede]

The Romance is actually the opposite problem I think. It is moving too slowly, and the story runs out before it gets to the good stuff. I am not inclined to add more scenes and length. But....Its going to be hard to address.

Romance is always hard to get right, at least for me. It needs to happen at the right pace and at the rights point in the overall story, otherwise the balance and pacing gets lots. Thats especially true when what I'm writing is not a romance story. You said that you thought the editor had some experience with romance stories, so I think I'd ask her what she suggests changing to get the pacing and balance right. It might be that you need to move some of the scenes or possibly divide them up so that the romance sub-plot is a little smoother.

My issue with the editor is I cannot gauge her interest. She may be busy, but I am paying her. I am willing accommodate her if she is busy, so long as its not hurting my effort. But if she is not interested, I wish she would say so. In the end, something will happen and I will feel like this will work out, or its becoming too unproductive to continue. I don't want to pester her, but I also don't want to be left hanging. Overall, I feel a little disappointed, but I am not sure if that is fair. I was not sure what to really expect. So, I am withholding any real judgement about it.

I'm lucky, I don't work with a freelance editor. But the problem for freelance staff is that they have to keep the income flowing, and that means balancing several clients. If you're paying her then she will be interested - but she may have a lot of other things to do as well. Editors are busy in my experience, at least the good ones are, and that means that I as a writer don't set the pace when the book is out for editing. This is why I said earlier that you should have another little project to work on whilst the book is being edited - it saves these feelings of frustration.

So far, I would say, most of what she tagged, seemed good, and I used it. Some I reworded or rewrote to avoid her issue.

The scene I just looked at she fist marked up with red, and then made a comment that it was too passive. Well...do you want me to fix the red stuff, or do you want me to make it not passive? No point in the corrections if its all gonna change?

Well, that suggests to me that she thinks you should possibly re-write it to be less passive. That doesn't make her detailed comments invalid. (See my other reply to you for my suggestions as to how you should use the detailed and general comments.)