Elemental Magic

[ThinkerX]

Knacks are a cool name for this!

I imagine then, your wizards can only manipulate that which is already there? You mentioned the classic fireball being out. Pyrokinesis would imply moving fire which already exists, right? Although you also mentioned igniting things at a distance. Hm...

I'm also curious now, since you imply that your wizards don't just...generally have ability to work anything within their knacks (Kyle, a beautiful name, has a knack for Fixing, but you also mention specific spells), do your wizards need to say or do anything to work their specific -kinesis magic? Like an incantation or special movement?

Pretty much - my wizards can manipulate only that which is already there.

Much of the telekinetic 'spells' are applied visualization. To 'fix' - to bind things together, the wizard sticks the things together and imagines them 'bound' at the 'grain of sand/splinter' level. For lubrication, a drop or two of fluid is envisioned to spread out and cover the entire surface. Shatter involves imagining all the minute cracks and flaws in an object, then applying telekinesis to make those flaws rapidly expand. Each application requires a different visualization, making it a different spell, so to speak.

With pyrokinesis, the key is friction - like rubbing sticks together produces heat, then eventually fire, except, again, this is envisioned at the grain of sand/splinter level. How far away s fire can be ignited depends on the wizard's telekinetic reach, for many this is measured in inches, for the likes of Kyle, it is a dozen yards.

Whether a verbal component is involved depends on the wizards training and exact spell being cast. The more competent wizards don't bother.


Added to all of this is the 'philosophical limit. PSI ability, if abused, can and does fade away. 'Abuse' constitutes things like casting spells to harm others without damn good reason (usually a life or risk of serious injury) or casting spells for coin - specifically healing spells, though there are others. There are...philosophical approaches that permit workarounds, but well... Anyhow, most wizards are either attached to an academic/;;beneficial organization, subsist on the charity of others (villagers giving them a hut and food in exchange for spell work and other services, or a lord giving a spot in his manor.) or are effective hermits (classic reclusive wizard in a tower).

 

[Fyri]

With pyrokinesis, the key is friction - like rubbing sticks together produces heat, then eventually fire, except, again, this is envisioned at the grain of sand/splinter level. How far away s fire can be ignited depends on the wizard's telekinetic reach, for many this is measured in inches, for the likes of Kyle, it is a dozen yards.

Whether a verbal component is involved depends on the wizards training and exact spell being cast. The more competent wizards don't bother.


Added to all of this is the 'philosophical limit. PSI ability, if abused, can and does fade away. 'Abuse' constitutes things like casting spells to harm others without damn good reason (usually a life or risk of serious injury) or casting spells for coin - specifically healing spells, though there are others. There are...philosophical approaches that permit workarounds, but well... Anyhow, most wizards are either attached to an academic/;;beneficial organization, subsist on the charity of others (villagers giving them a hut and food in exchange for spell work and other services, or a lord giving a spot in his manor.) or are effective hermits (classic reclusive wizard in a tower).

Neat!

Can fire be ignited anywhere or does it require certain materials to be present? Like, they imagine the friction, but can they also imagine the material to make it work? Say, if they're on a canoe and need to ignite a fire over the surface of a lake or in mid air.

Oooooh, I love the philosophical limit idea. Misuse magic and magic will run away from home. Deal with it, scum of the earth. *cool guy glasses*

You made me want to roleplay in your world!

 

[Fyri]

Can fire be ignited anywhere or does it require certain materials to be present? Like, they imagine the friction, but can they also imagine the material to make it work? Say, if they're on a canoe and need to ignite a fire over the surface of a lake or in mid air.

Mm! Unless you mean they literally just have to imagine the friction, no materials necessary!

 

[ThinkerX]

Neat!

Can fire be ignited anywhere or does it require certain materials to be present? Like, they imagine the friction, but can they also imagine the material to make it work? Say, if they're on a canoe and need to ignite a fire over the surface of a lake or in mid air.

Oooooh, I love the philosophical limit idea. Misuse magic and magic will run away from home. Deal with it, scum of the earth. *cool guy glasses*

You made me want to roleplay in your world!

Nope. Fire requires something that will burn. Using friction to ignite somebody's clothes, yes, (Or even leather armor). Igniting a fire in mid air, on metal, or on water...no. (Though the friction trick could make the metal quite warm, even scorching hot).

Since you seem interested...what I described earlier is the dominant beneficial philosophies, cribbed mostly from Norton's 'Witch World,' and LeGuin's 'Earth Sea.' As pointed out, there are workarounds.

Kyle, for example, was a peasant drafted into the army and trained as a wizard when his superiors discovered he had magical talent. Part of his training included an oath, impressed deeply onto his psyche, that allowed for him to use killing magic - but only against the nation's enemies. Even so, that gave him nightmares and ultimately what we'd call PTSD. His recovery is part of the overall story arc.

Neutral magic - studying for knowledge alone, or in near monomaniacal pursuit of a given goal, does allow for casting harmful magic or selling spells - if it is for knowledge or contributes to the goal. Basically, hermit wizard comes out of the hills in need of financing and cast spells to get that money. If said spellcasting hurts others...gray area, but...


Power seeking is a philosophy that can *almost* be beneficial, is sometimes 'Gray, but usually devolves into something nasty. Basically, a sort of 'Cult' or 'Father Knows Best' type deal where the caster draws on the energies of his or her followers. In the best forms, these borrowed energies are used for protection and beneficial purposes, in the nastier ones, the followers, while living, are about two notches above zombies. This approach, especially the uglier variants, results in the caster getting more and more unbalanced over time. Ultimately, almost all of the caster's powers come from the followers, so if separated...

There is also demon conjuring - the whole name magic thing. The issue here is that while the supernatural entities bartered with can confer great power on the wizard. they are also far, far better at manipulation than the wizard can ever hope to be. So, unless the contact is very slight or tightly controlled. the relationship will 'flip' - eventually the wizard will become the supernatural entities puppet. (A peril of Gray magic and Power Seeking.)

 

[Fyri]

Nice! I love the possibilities this all presents for a story. Are you working on a series then? There is so much that can be done with this, I'd find it hard to ever leave the world to write something else!

 

[ThinkerX]

I done wrote and published the 'Empire' series, which is limping along with about 10-12 sales a month. Currently, I am completing the rough draft of another book set in that world (that was this year's NaNo project.)

Amazon.com: Empire: The Complete Collection eBook : Goff, Tim: Books

Amazon.com: Empire: The Complete Collection eBook : Goff, Tim: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[Queshire]

Magic in the Burned Heavens is common enough and advanced enough that it doesn't just have magical equivalents for modern day tech, but magical equivalents for sci fi tech. The majority of that magic has an elemental component. Large, lumbering stone golems act as mobile farming equipment. Rune inscribed mirrors twist Light mana to create holograms for news & TV. Police officers cultivate Lightning mana in order to power their rune scripted armor. A team of Earth mages build up a skyscraper layer by layer. Even basic unaspected Mana is created by blending together all different types into one whole. Look at it closely enough and you'll still find particles of fire mana, lightning mana and so on.

How good someone is at magic without these external aids depends on training and what level they're at. It's not unusual for a civilian to only really have one trick they're practiced enough at to be considered a proper technique while all the other times they use mana without an aid they're forced to manually mold the mana into shape like it was clay.

Some people are born with a natural affinity. If you're from a race that naturally has metallic bronze skin then yeah, you're going to have an affinity for metal mana. If there's a phoenix somewhere in your family tree then you've got a good chance of having an affinity for fire mana. Sometimes there's not a real reason for an inborn affinity and it's just a quirk of the spirit.

Most people start out with unaspected mana though.

Common elements such as fire, earth, air or water tend to be the first step after unaspected mana. It's not hard to find a source of them to draw from and they're broad enough that you don't need a delicate mana control in order to cultivate them.

With uncommon elements, well, if you want to mix Earth & Water mana in order to cultivate Mud mana or refine Fire mana into Smoke mana then that's going to require greater control. This repeats over and over again with more complicated or abstract elements requiring more skill to cultivate. It takes a rare individual to even sense the essence of Luck and special methods to manipulate it, but an aspiring merchant can start out by training with Metal & Earth mana, refine those into Gold & Gem mana respectfully and eventually learn to refine those two in bits of Luck mana. (Cause, ya know, fortune in wealth leading to luck.)

Instead of a list of elements it's easier to think of things as a web with Unaspected Mana at the center and stretching out from there.

Further complicating things is that each element has multiple aspects to it. With just Fire Mana one spell might evoke the hearth's flame to create a beacon that generates a barrier of warding light, a different spell might evoke the forge's flame in order to temper the body with the forge's heat and a third spell might translate the flames of passion into actual fire to fight with. At low levels the spell in question tends to handle these aspects, but that's ultimately just training wheels. At a certain point progressing as a mage requires gaining enlightenment in these aspects. You can't just know them, but must truly understand them.

You're not limited to only cultivating one type of mana, but it's not a good idea to just grab whatever spells you can get your hands on. The more disunified your mana is the harder it is to progress as a mage. That's not a problem if you're a civilian who only uses magic to help out in everyday life or if you're a low ranked adventurer who earns their living wage by farming slimes, but becomes important if you want to reach the higher stages. That's still pretty broad though. Someone who cultivates Ice and Sword mana could unify them via biting cold that cuts you to the bone and a dedicated battle mage that's cultivated Fire, Earth, Air and Water mana could pick up Chaos mana in order to unify all four via cataclysmic natural disasters.

Mana itself has some benefits separate from the element as well. A fire aspected mana bolt launched while underwater would be opposed by the natural water mana in the water, but it wouldn't be affected by the lack of oxygen like an actual fireball would. Ice mana condensed into an icicle wouldn't be reliant on having moisture in the atmosphere to form the ice out of and earth mana shaped into a bullet wouldn't rely on having stone nearby. Since they're condensed mana they'll eventually dissolve into ambient mana instead of leaving behind matter, but it's quick and convenient. Finally, using mana to empower your body typically works on a conceptual level. Using Air mana to boost your agility and jumping ability might create a wind as a side effect, but the actual boost comes from taking on the freedom and lightness of the wind.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

In my 'side' project there's two forms of Magic.
Magic Magic: which is traditional 'abra kadabra zappy do toss a lightning bolt at you' type stuff (I haven't decided on the wordage for the spell incantations would be interesting if for once there were no words at all.)
And then there's God Magic which is also not magic, but is powered by magic, it's kinda funky. it's basically extremely advanced science, but powered by the same 'stuff' as mortal magic. There is exactly one mortal race that has God Magic as part of their culture (it's Elves in their home country, elves in other countries use traditional magic, explaining the nonsense behind that is a whole other can of worms) and although they don't understand how the gods use it, they've come up with their own ways to use it.

Traditional magic follows traditional rules: you know, fire water etc (I have not decided if I want 'side' elements like lightning and ice but I do have light and dark)
God Magic follows different rules but works on similar system: Intelligence, Dexterity etc things you need to work with technology basically.

I have one tribe of mages where the rest of the world thinks their magic is uber powerful, but it's really not. They're just incredibly sneaky. Their incantations are utter nonsense ( a fire spell would be real world meme quotes like 'eat my nads' or 'get good' in a culture/world where they don't know what that kind of lingo means) a lot of their incantations are so fast to say that their enemies are dumbfounded (both by the actual phrase, which is basically meaningless, and how fast they say it) so they lower their guard and are surprised by the end result. Don't get me wrong, their spells are indeed quite powerful, but it's literally the same magic as everyone else. And yes, I'm dead serious, they use gamer lingo as their incantations.

 

[Fyri]

With uncommon elements, well, if you want to mix Earth & Water mana in order to cultivate Mud mana or refine Fire mana into Smoke mana then that's going to require greater control. This repeats over and over again with more complicated or abstract elements requiring more skill to cultivate. It takes a rare individual to even sense the essence of Luck and special methods to manipulate it, but an aspiring merchant can start out by training with Metal & Earth mana, refine those into Gold & Gem mana respectfully and eventually learn to refine those two in bits of Luck mana. (Cause, ya know, fortune in wealth leading to luck.)

Ohhh. XD I was gonna say, what the heck elements are you combining for the abstract concept of Luck. XD Have to say I'm a little disappointed it is money related, but it does make sense.

Further complicating things is that each element has multiple aspects to it. With just Fire Mana one spell might evoke the hearth's flame to create a beacon that generates a barrier of warding light, a different spell might evoke the forge's flame in order to temper the body with the forge's heat and a third spell might translate the flames of passion into actual fire to fight with.

Oooh. So, it also works with our connotations of fire? Like, Fire mana can simply generate light without heat, or manipulate mere warmth, or manifest real fire through just the feelings of passion or anger?

I kind of have that idea in my books. A character is able to manipulate his fire to be warmer or harmless, but still bright. But the connection to emotions is something I don't include. I like how you presented that here.

You can't just know them, but must truly understand them.

I love when this is included in magic learning.

You're not limited to only cultivating one type of mana, but it's not a good idea to just grab whatever spells you can get your hands on. The more disunified your mana is the harder it is to progress as a mage. That's not a problem if you're a civilian who only uses magic to help out in everyday life or if you're a low ranked adventurer who earns their living wage by farming slimes.

Farming slimes is giving me MapleStory flashbacks. XD And now I'm probably aging myself. XD

Someone who cultivates Ice and Sword mana could unify them via biting cold that cuts you to the bone and a dedicated battle mage that's cultivated Fire, Earth, Air and Water mana could pick up Chaos mana in order to unify all four via cataclysmic natural disasters.

This is really cool.

Since they're condensed mana they'll eventually dissolve into ambient mana instead of leaving behind matter, but it's quick and convenient.

Interesting!

While reading this, I realized that maybe I should just use "mana" to describe my elements' energy, but then I remembered why I went against the idea. For me, mana just reminds me too much of video games and feels jarring for my world. Have you run into that problem (I noticed you also mentioned levels, which I also used early on, until a beta mentioned how it made it feel too much like a video game and I agreed and disliked it). Or if you were to get that comparison, would you be bothered or happy for it? I think there is no bad answer to that, just preference and intentions! ^_^

 

[Fyri]

In my 'side' project there's two forms of Magic.
Magic Magic: which is traditional 'abra kadabra zappy do toss a lightning bolt at you' type stuff (I haven't decided on the wordage for the spell incantations would be interesting if for once there were no words at all.)

But... But "Abra Kadabra Zappy Do Toss a Lightning Bolt At You / Abra Kadabra Zappy" sounds like such a fun spell to have to say! I wanna keep it! XD jk jk ;P

There is exactly one mortal race that has God Magic as part of their culture (it's Elves

Yessssss. The Elvesssssss. They must be the cool, elite onessss! XD

God Magic follows different rules but works on similar system: Intelligence, Dexterity etc things you need to work with technology basically.

Ohhh. That's an interesting concept to work with! Huh. *ponders the implications*

I have one tribe of mages where the rest of the world thinks their magic is uber powerful, but it's really not. They're just incredibly sneaky. Their incantations are utter nonsense ( a fire spell would be real world meme quotes like 'eat my nads' or 'get good' in a culture/world where they don't know what that kind of lingo means) a lot of their incantations are so fast to say that their enemies are dumbfounded (both by the actual phrase, which is basically meaningless, and how fast they say it) so they lower their guard and are surprised by the end result. Don't get me wrong, their spells are indeed quite powerful, but it's literally the same magic as everyone else. And yes, I'm dead serious, they use gamer lingo as their incantations.

I love this; this is hilarious; but I'm also confused now about how spells work. If you go for spells that need incantations or words, would it matter what the words were? I just know that traditionally, spells are connected to some meaning connected to what the spell will do or is. But if a fire spell could be, say "Is this free real estate?" perhaps it secretly doesn't matter what you say, as long as you say something? Or perhaps you are able to create a new spell, and when you do, you choose the wording for it, like scientists discovering new species...?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

But... But "Abra Kadabra Zappy Do Toss a Lightning Bolt At You / Abra Kadabra Zappy" sounds like such a fun spell to have to say! I wanna keep it! XD jk jk ;P

Feel free to use it if you want to XD

Yessssss. The Elvesssssss. They must be the cool, elite onessss! XD

Surprisingly? nah. The elves are pretty chill in this world, the elves homeland is the typical elven thing of 'we are isolationists' though. But this time around they're a bunch of desert bandits. The prince (the main character) is named Sinbad :3

Ohhh. That's an interesting concept to work with! Huh. *ponders the implications*

Eh it's basically different 'stats' required to use the spells / magic themselves. It's a world where in lore that's an actual thing, and the characters are aware of it, also they have character levels but it's not as insane or goofy as like DBZ, it's just a shorthand way the guilds keep track of how strong adventurers are. The stats for things like Strength, Fire etc just measure your aptitude in that field. Although the one thing I'm subverting is, I am NOT going to use stats as an excuse for the baddies to underestimate their foes. I hate when different forms of media use that stuff to measure power levels, and it turns out that's the only reason that system exists to begin with. The numbers themselves don't mean much, other than being a shorthand way to track aptitude.

That being said: Someone with 99 Strength could be defenseless against someone with 50 strength, if the person with 50 strength is smarter than the average bear and is more efficient/clever in using it.

I love this; this is hilarious; but I'm also confused now about how spells work. If you go for spells that need incantations or words, would it matter what the words were? I just know that traditionally, spells are connected to some meaning connected to what the spell will do or is. But if a fire spell could be, say "Is this free real estate?" perhaps it secretly doesn't matter what you say, as long as you say something? Or perhaps you are able to create a new spell, and when you do, you choose the wording for it, like scientists discovering new species...?

Basically the Clan in it's earlier years discovered the language of 'our' reality (It's hard to explain, but there's a place called the sea of data in the universe and all sorts of information from multiple universes flows through it, and data actually takes physical form in the world the story takes place in especially the remains of powerful beings like gods or powerful monsters) particularly meme/gamer culture, like L33T speak, and they also discovered that form of martial arts that involves vocalizing the power of your strikes through shouting. Since the clans were kind of trolls (behavior wise, like internet trolls) already to begin with, they sussed out that the power behind spell incantations is similar. So they figured out a way to separate the spell from the incantation itself. In this world the incantations can basically be whatever focuses you more, or gets your magic out faster. Some people don't even need incantations at all, and they either take a long time to loose their spell or it comes out really fast and isn't super powerful as it should be.

I haven't figured out how the spells are actually named yet, that's kind of the beauty of the incantations for this clan being forms of focus rather than part of the spell itself. If a Mage in this clan wanted to jump really high, but wanted to do it in a funny way (you know, as you do) the incantation could be something like 'yo kitto taco bell' and they would unleash a fart strong enough to propel them into the air lol

Basically the actual words of the incantation don't matter, what matters is the context. Like you wouldn't say 'this is totally lit bro' to cast a water spell. if that makes sense.

 

[Fyri]

That being said: Someone with 99 Strength could be defenseless against someone with 50 strength, if the person with 50 strength is smarter than the average bear and is more efficient/clever in using it.

That's nifty! Very good to keep in mind when writing. I work with classes in my story (basically another word for level. Class 1-20 fire elementalist, etc. Generally, the main opponents are relatively equally matched, but your point is something you think about often!

Basically the Clan in it's earlier years discovered the language of 'our' reality (It's hard to explain, but there's a place called the sea of data in the universe and all sorts of information from multiple universes flows through it, and data actually takes physical form in the world the story takes place in especially the remains of powerful beings like gods or powerful monsters) particularly meme/gamer culture, like L33T speak, and they also discovered that form of martial arts that involves vocalizing the power of your strikes through shouting. Since the clans were kind of trolls (behavior wise, like internet trolls) already to begin with, they sussed out that the power behind spell incantations is similar. So they figured out a way to separate the spell from the incantation itself. In this world the incantations can basically be whatever focuses you more, or gets your magic out faster. Some people don't even need incantations at all, and they either take a long time to loose their spell or it comes out really fast and isn't super powerful as it should be.

I haven't figured out how the spells are actually named yet, that's kind of the beauty of the incantations for this clan being forms of focus rather than part of the spell itself. If a Mage in this clan wanted to jump really high, but wanted to do it in a funny way (you know, as you do) the incantation could be something like 'yo kitto taco bell' and they would unleash a fart strong enough to propel them into the air lol

Basically the actual words of the incantation don't matter, what matters is the context. Like you wouldn't say 'this is totally lit bro' to cast a water spell. if that makes sense.

I want to read the scenes that have this Clan someday. XD That's such a fun touch to the story.

 

[SirenSon117]

1) ...wait. Was Dialga(he was space, right?) supereffective against Palkia(time? or vice versa. XD)? It's been so long since I played Diamond and Pearl.

2) Please explain more! You have me interested in them being more like damage types than proper elements. How does this contrast work?

3) Interesting that you picked up Naruto vibes! I haven't studied so much the element use in Naruto as much as I studied the physical combat (and I think one scene with Zabuza to get more ideas for using the water element. XD). I am much more interested in the ATLA part, since they use their elements not just for fighting, but also every day things (warming tea~). I lean more into the elements being just part of life. The people don't consider it magic, since it is as common and normal as breathing for them. Therefore, they've also had plenty of time for learning interesting ways to use it in combat.

4) Maybe someday I will watch Jojo. Maybe someday. XD

Dialga was Time, Palkia was Space. Don't worry, I flip things all the time too. My concept of "Elements as damage types" is based around my Spells requiring a certain "cost" of Magical Energy. The "cost" is moreso the amount of energy that the Spell needs to be cast rather than a hyperspecific sacrifice used in soft magic systems. When that Magical Energy is converted into Elemental Energy for Spellcasting, it works on equivalent exchange and similar "scientific principles". Ideally I would have the exact cost written out in Metric Joules for every spell, but I'm bad at math so no. It's physics, except not really and it's being written by a guy who has no understanding of physics whatsover. So when Elements are involved, the "Elements" aren't the energy being expressed. It's merely a transmutation of the Energy that mimics natural forces. Fire Element isn't literal fire, it's Magical Energy that mimics fire and using that power you can manipulate Fire on a conceptual level. However, Mages adapt to magical damage over time via something called Grade Capacity. The Higher a Mage's Grade Capacity, the higher their tolerance for Magic. They can cast bigger Spells because they've adapted to the conditions those Spells require and weaker Spells do less damage via the same logic. My Magic System is about the relationship between the Imaginary and the Physical, bringing what's conceptual into reality and manipulating reality via concepts. It's cool stuff. The Fire Element isn't just physical fire, it's the concept of fire and things that are associated with Fire. Same with every other Element. That's why Dragon is an Element, it's not just a Monster Hunter Homage, it's because Dragons are both a massive family of species and a concept. That concept can be manipulated magically, leading to Dragon Magic(or Dragocraft as I call it)!

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

That's nifty! Very good to keep in mind when writing. I work with classes in my story (basically another word for level. Class 1-20 fire elementalist, etc. Generally, the main opponents are relatively equally matched, but your point is something you think about often!

Yes, I like the idea of a scaling system, it's a good way to keep power levels in a shorthand form. But those power levels don't mean much in an actual battle. That is the one thing that annoys the hell out of me (don't get me started on DBZ power level debates) the numbers being used as a narrative device? It works in video games and...that's about it. I do like it when it's used purely as a 'ranking' system, like how Fairy Tail does it, although Fairy Tail is also guilty of the 'you're an x rank, I'm Y ranks above you, you shouldn't be this strong' trope lol It is very easy to rely on that narrative device when you have a ranking system, even if you don't intend to.

At least in this universe of mine, the system exists to get people to challenge themselves. Either improve what they're already good at (like the brusers who only invest in increasing their strength) or try something new if they aren't good at what they originally envisioned. Even the gods follow this stat system (of course, their stats are insanely high due to not being mortals but still) although they don't particularly seem fond of fighting eachother directly like adventurers would.

I want to read the scenes that have this Clan someday. XD That's such a fun touch to the story.

I should note that with the fart example, the fart itself would not be powerful enough to launch them (as that would explode their entire pelvis region from the pressure...) but the spell itself would give the illusion that the fart is what launched them. And the fart would be quite loud/comical. And yeah, they're going to be quite a fun bunch to write. I just have to make sure I don't use too much gamer lingo and stuff in their dialect so non gamer folks understand them XD

The actual clan doesn't appear until two thirds into the story, but there is a character from that clan who's quite frequent. The clan itself isn't a clan in the traditional sense (as in, a single unified species, like Elves/dwarves etc) they're like nerds in real life, a collection of misfits that are far more capable than the world gives em credit for.

 

[Fyri]

Dialga was Time, Palkia was Space. Don't worry, I flip things all the time too. My concept of "Elements as damage types" is based around my Spells requiring a certain "cost" of Magical Energy. The "cost" is moreso the amount of energy that the Spell needs to be cast rather than a hyperspecific sacrifice used in soft magic systems. When that Magical Energy is converted into Elemental Energy for Spellcasting, it works on equivalent exchange and similar "scientific principles". Ideally I would have the exact cost written out in Metric Joules for every spell, but I'm bad at math so no. It's physics, except not really and it's being written by a guy who has no understanding of physics whatsover. So when Elements are involved, the "Elements" aren't the energy being expressed. It's merely a transmutation of the Energy that mimics natural forces. Fire Element isn't literal fire, it's Magical Energy that mimics fire and using that power you can manipulate Fire on a conceptual level. However, Mages adapt to magical damage over time via something called Grade Capacity. The Higher a Mage's Grade Capacity, the higher their tolerance for Magic. They can cast bigger Spells because they've adapted to the conditions those Spells require and weaker Spells do less damage via the same logic. My Magic System is about the relationship between the Imaginary and the Physical, bringing what's conceptual into reality and manipulating reality via concepts. It's cool stuff. The Fire Element isn't just physical fire, it's the concept of fire and things that are associated with Fire. Same with every other Element. That's why Dragon is an Element, it's not just a Monster Hunter Homage, it's because Dragons are both a massive family of species and a concept. That concept can be manipulated magically, leading to Dragon Magic(or Dragocraft as I call it)!

XD I love your attitude. It's physics, but also not because I don't know physics. XD It's magic physics. Physics, but with imagination and many creative liberties. Loosely based on physics.

I mean. Same. XD

This is interesting, though I think I'm still a little thrown off by the "damage types" mention. This definitely makes sense as concept magic, but I am confused otherwise.

 

[Fyri]

Yes, I like the idea of a scaling system, it's a good way to keep power levels in a shorthand form. But those power levels don't mean much in an actual battle. That is the one thing that annoys the hell out of me (don't get me started on DBZ power level debates) the numbers being used as a narrative device? It works in video games and...that's about it. I do like it when it's used purely as a 'ranking' system, like how Fairy Tail does it, although Fairy Tail is also guilty of the 'you're an x rank, I'm Y ranks above you, you shouldn't be this strong' trope lol It is very easy to rely on that narrative device when you have a ranking system, even if you don't intend to.

At least in this universe of mine, the system exists to get people to challenge themselves. Either improve what they're already good at (like the brusers who only invest in increasing their strength) or try something new if they aren't good at what they originally envisioned. Even the gods follow this stat system (of course, their stats are insanely high due to not being mortals but still) although they don't particularly seem fond of fighting eachother directly like adventurers would.

Yeah! I'm not super familiar with Fairy Tail (more of a casual bystander), but I imagine that, at least in my understanding of something measured in "ranks" if a "Y Rank" person saw a person allegedly as a lower "X Rank" but then saw that they were actually quite stronger than they should be at that rank—shouldn't they edit the expectations. Like "Oh, you deceived me. You aren't an X Rank/rookie. You're actually a W rank/professional." Just like hustling in sports or games. Like if the title of rank is more of a social thing than an actual stat one can see in your, say, DNA.

Just me thinking. XD

The actual clan doesn't appear until two thirds into the story, but there is a character from that clan who's quite frequent. The clan itself isn't a clan in the traditional sense (as in, a single unified species, like Elves/dwarves etc) they're like nerds in real life, a collection of misfits that are far more capable than the world gives em credit for.

Nice. XD This is a super interesting and I think unique idea. Kudos! Excited to see it play out in story format!

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Yeah! I'm not super familiar with Fairy Tail (more of a casual bystander), but I imagine that, at least in my understanding of something measured in "ranks" if a "Y Rank" person saw a person allegedly as a lower "X Rank" but then saw that they were actually quite stronger than they should be at that rank—shouldn't they edit the expectations. Like "Oh, you deceived me. You aren't an X Rank/rookie. You're actually a W rank/professional." Just like hustling in sports or games. Like if the title of rank is more of a social thing than an actual stat one can see in your, say, DNA.

Just me thinking. XD

Personally I don't mind it too bad, it's just an annoying narrative tactic cause it's done the same way every time.
-villain beats up good guys (who are lower rank)
-good guys get motivated by something stupid (like the powuh of fweendship) or some dus Ex machina shit
-Villain acts completely shocked that they didn't predict this. Like oh my god why is this scrub beating me??
-Villain has an 'epiphany' where they realize the series mc guffin is the source of the power up, tries to steal it, gets defeated and so on.
The only time it's used Ironically is in DBZ, Toriyama straight up confesses that it's a joke that causes bad guys to constantly underestimate their foes.
Most other anime do it unironically and basically copy/paste Toriyama's joke while missing the point of the joke. (I am aware Toriyama isn't the first manga writer to do this trope, but he certainly popularized it with DBZ)

Regarding how the stats work in my story, it's quite literally just a measure of aptitude for your capabilities with magic. That's it, it has no bearing on how actually powerful a mage is. Case in point the girl from the L33T speak clan (the one we've been talking about) who's a proper main character has 69 in all her stats, except for vigor, which is how much life force one has. That is 72 because when measured it reads 420. (which is insanely high for a blood stone elf, so she has tons of energy compared to the rest of her species) She went all in on the joke, and can't 'level up' any more, but she's decently good at all aspects of magic. She's capable of some crazy stuff because of how much effort she put into mastering the art of magic, both the traditional kind and the way her clan uses it.

Nice. XD This is a super interesting and I think unique idea. Kudos! Excited to see it play out in story format!

Yeah the main character from that clan is a stone blood elf (there are different species of elves, same with dwarves etc a funny idea I had for a species of dwarves is ones that are almost the same size as humans but still obviously a dwarf) and she doesn't care for how her species makes money. She finds it quite barbaric and honestly silly since mining gems from the earth is the whole reason the god of earth put them there in the first place. Her species think they're helping humans but really they're just doing silly things to feel important. She was discovered by the L33T Clan and raised by them when her species pretty much abandoned her. Even though she's much more accepted in the L33T clan, as an information trader, she's still kind of a loner/outsider.

 

[SirenSon117]

Personally I don't mind it too bad, it's just an annoying narrative tactic cause it's done the same way every time.
-villain beats up good guys (who are lower rank)
-good guys get motivated by something stupid (like the powuh of fweendship) or some dus Ex machina shit
-Villain acts completely shocked that they didn't predict this. Like oh my god why is this scrub beating me??
-Villain has an 'epiphany' where they realize the series mc guffin is the source of the power up, tries to steal it, gets defeated and so on.
The only time it's used Ironically is in DBZ, Toriyama straight up confesses that it's a joke that causes bad guys to constantly underestimate their foes.
Most other anime do it unironically and basically copy/paste Toriyama's joke while missing the point of the joke. (I am aware Toriyama isn't the first manga writer to do this trope, but he certainly popularized it with DBZ)

Regarding how the stats work in my story, it's quite literally just a measure of aptitude for your capabilities with magic. That's it, it has no bearing on how actually powerful a mage is. Case in point the girl from the L33T speak clan (the one we've been talking about) who's a proper main character has 69 in all her stats, except for vigor, which is how much life force one has. That is 72 because when measured it reads 420. (which is insanely high for a blood stone elf, so she has tons of energy compared to the rest of her species) She went all in on the joke, and can't 'level up' any more, but she's decently good at all aspects of magic. She's capable of some crazy stuff because of how much effort she put into mastering the art of magic, both the traditional kind and the way her clan uses it.



Yeah the main character from that clan is a stone blood elf (there are different species of elves, same with dwarves etc a funny idea I had for a species of dwarves is ones that are almost the same size as humans but still obviously a dwarf) and she doesn't care for how her species makes money. She finds it quite barbaric and honestly silly since mining gems from the earth is the whole reason the god of earth put them there in the first place. Her species think they're helping humans but really they're just doing silly things to feel important. She was discovered by the L33T Clan and raised by them when her species pretty much abandoned her. Even though she's much more accepted in the L33T clan, as an information trader, she's still kind of a loner/outsider.

I on the other hand play it straight with my Grade System. Grades are a system of ranks ranging from Least to Ultimate with Least basically being on the level of parlor tricks and Ultimate encompassing Godly feats of the Supernatural. And there's a lot of in-between. However, Mages themselves aren't Graded. The Spells, Magitech, innate Abilities, and Martial Arts Techniques are what's being Graded. As a result, A Mage in terms of power level is only a composite of the things they can do, and how well they can do those things. You can roughly estimate a Mage's power level based on the majority or Median of Graded Powers within their possession, but everyone in-universe acknowledges that as not worth the effort. Instead of calculating how powerful the dude is, just fight the guy yourself! If your not up to task, boom there's your scaling! One character relative to another. Power Scaling is so much more fun when it's as simple as "this character can beat up this character. Character A is higher up on the totem pole. If MC becomes the strongest in his entire nation, introduce characters like the Magelords who are the strongest Mages in the World and reestablish the power ceiling from there. Failing that, you can either kill off the character or go full Dragon Ball Super.

 

[Fyri]

I on the other hand play it straight with my Grade System. Grades are a system of ranks ranging from Least to Ultimate with Least basically being on the level of parlor tricks and Ultimate encompassing Godly feats of the Supernatural. And there's a lot of in-between. However, Mages themselves aren't Graded. The Spells, Magitech, innate Abilities, and Martial Arts Techniques are what's being Graded. As a result, A Mage in terms of power level is only a composite of the things they can do, and how well they can do those things. You can roughly estimate a Mage's power level based on the majority or Median of Graded Powers within their possession, but everyone in-universe acknowledges that as not worth the effort. Instead of calculating how powerful the dude is, just fight the guy yourself! If your not up to task, boom there's your scaling! One character relative to another. Power Scaling is so much more fun when it's as simple as "this character can beat up this character. Character A is higher up on the totem pole. If MC becomes the strongest in his entire nation, introduce characters like the Magelords who are the strongest Mages in the World and reestablish the power ceiling from there. Failing that, you can either kill off the character or go full Dragon Ball Super.

I would be careful (or at least self aware) here though! Dragon Ball is notorious for bad power escalation, where the power ceiling just keeps expanding upon each "final boss" defeat. Eventually the ceiling becomes meaningless and the characters/fight unrelatable.

 

[pmmg]

Quesh's system seem very workable, but way more thought out than I went for. But...I do admire the amount of working it out they have done.

Most of these seem like they would fit better in RPG's and video games to me. Such definable knowledge of such system seems like more than the characters or peoples of the world ought to really know. Its like, once I put numbers and labels on them, I have a way of making sure no one breaks the rules. But its the one who breaks the rules that throws everyone into a tizzy.

In game system, I have a level or ability, and I get to a place where I can cast fireball. I just stick it in its slot, and i know every time, without fail, it will work in this way. But my feeling is, magic should be more of...I had some control over a fuel source (mana), and I exerted myself, and focused it into a form that was flame and exploded a distance away. Its not really that I had a spell in my list, but that I had to discipline to control it through all of those stages... And while my focus and affinity may be with fire, its really the same fuel source if I wanted to use water or earth...just maybe I am not as practiced with those.

And even for the stuff I've practiced and can with effort repeat, what if I am interrupted, or the supply of fuel is too low, or too high...it may change the results, or my ability to do. I don't just get to walk around all assured I have some power in my list.

I did not go with an elemental system, and barely went with a mana one. I envisioned lay lines of mana for the source of fuel, and places where it gathered into pools, making for areas of stronger and weaker effects. Further, there are alternate sources that are easier for those of certain aspects to use, or more difficult if they are of the wrong one. An evil wizard, for instance, would not build his stronghold where his supply of mana would be weak, and a good wizard might find him too strong in his stronghold as the supply of corrupted mana is too high, the supply of purer mana is too low.


Some wizards (and by this term, I am simplifying it for the thread), do have greater or lesser control of elements like Fire, Earth, Wind and Water, but there is more by their own comfort and personal choice. There is no reason they could not use the others, other than it just does not come first to mind, and their comfort with it is small.

But there is no hard system. No one has X amount of power, or ranking or levels or any of that. Most do not know who's kung-fu is better than whos. And I am not sure that would be the way it would be measured anyway. A great healer, for instance, may be the greatest mana user on the planet, but still have no combat attributes. Against a foe with weaker control, they may still lose in combat. That does not mean they were the lesser wizard. All of that, I am ranked number four, and he's only a number twelves, while fun in many of the anime's I've seen, always seems a little out of place to me. You may be ranked number 4, but...who's to say that is true? Have we sampled the whole world? and this stuff is always in flux.

Magnus Carlsen is ranked No. 1 in chess, but how many times out of a 100 does he beat Hiraku? I bet its closer to 55-45 than 100-0. Just takes one 45 day for a wizard to die.