Food on the road - what to take and forage for during travel

[Jess A]

Tevaras: No worries - generally that just means a bit of side research (and quite a bit of mathematics by the looks of it!). I'll modify figures according to my world in any case. Then you've got the conversion between pounds and kg as well - so yes that is very inconsistent. You've got 6kg of food which is about 13 pounds (I'm guesstimating) a day versus 3 pounds which is roughly 1.3kg or something. I could be completely wrong here.

Devor: I did consider posting it in the research forum - originally the thread was to incorporate other people's fantasy settings and invented foods, but only one person told me about their setting/food! So I guess now it's more real-world discussion.

Thanks also for the military list - that's very helpful as it gives a basic list. I can work out whether my characters can obtain everything on the list. Again - this is helpful for armies as well.

 

[Tevaras]

Good evening Jess A,

I did think about conversions, but knowing my luck I would have converted to kg when your world is in pounds, or vice versa! The unit inconsistency I was not overly worried about, after all some countries still use Imperial units - it just depends on what nationality web site you go to.

You are spot on, there is (near enough to) 2.2 lb. to the kg.

Therefore (to supply all units in S.I.):
3 lb. = 1.36 kg (one link's claim of food per man per day)
20 lb. = 9.07 kg (one link's claim of food per horse per day)

I hope you have had a productive evening writing .

 

[Jess A]

Good evening Jess A,

I did think about conversions, but knowing my luck I would have converted to kg when your world is in pounds, or vice versa! The unit inconsistency I was not overly worried about, after all some countries still use Imperial units - it just depends on what nationality web site you go to.

You are spot on, there is (near enough to) 2.2 lb. to the kg.

Therefore (to supply all units in S.I.):
3 lb. = 1.36 kg (one link's claim of food per man per day)
20 lb. = 9.07 kg (one link's claim of food per horse per day)

I hope you have had a productive evening writing .

Yes indeed

I think what I need to get out of the numbers is the number of pack animals needed for the group, and then just have a general idea of how to apply that to future group sizes, armies etc.

Thanks - I've plotted out some scenes, and I need to get to writing them. I don't have many free days so I need to set aside a few hours to get the scenes done!

 

[skip.knox]

The objection wasn't about stew per se, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.

I don't have any specific suggestions, since everyone's fantasy world is going to have its own dynamic, but I'll add a wrinkle you might like to use, and it's drawn from real-world history: dietary change.

The case that I think of most readily is that of medieval pilgrims, specifically Germanic pilgrims headed either to Rome or to Jerusalem. These were accustomed to a certain diet. Once they hit Venice, though, (or Milan), they experienced a fairly dramatic change in diet, not least of which was the change from butter to oil. Many of them got sick. Pilgrim guide books in the north actually recommend taking at least some native food along in order to help ease the transition.

There's room there for a little bit of color for your own story.

 

[Jess A]

The objection wasn't about stew per se, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.

I don't have any specific suggestions, since everyone's fantasy world is going to have its own dynamic, but I'll add a wrinkle you might like to use, and it's drawn from real-world history: dietary change.

The case that I think of most readily is that of medieval pilgrims, specifically Germanic pilgrims headed either to Rome or to Jerusalem. These were accustomed to a certain diet. Once they hit Venice, though, (or Milan), they experienced a fairly dramatic change in diet, not least of which was the change from butter to oil. Many of them got sick. Pilgrim guide books in the north actually recommend taking at least some native food along in order to help ease the transition.

There's room there for a little bit of color for your own story.

I love it. I think this could work very well for travel, especially if they cross the sea, or even cross the borders in some cases. Thanks for this - I could have some people get sick. I need to have the group dwindle down and sometimes having a monster attack them and treating them like cannon fodder is a bit...basic.

 

[Tevaras]

The objection wasn't about stew per se, but rather that it takes several hours to make one. Not exactly the ideal meal for the traveller.

<snip>

Depending on the territory they are travelling in, then setting watches overnight is plausible. In which case, the stew can be cooked overnight, ready for the morning breakfast perhaps? Gently stewing meat for hours - mmmmm, yummy!

 

[Devor]

The issue with cooking a stew for hours isn't the time but the fuel. That's a fire that has to be watched carefully, and that's not always realistic. Also, many of the ingredients of a good stew wouldn't keep well. If all you have is the meat from a rabbit you caught in a snare, you're probably better off with a stir fry than a stew.

I think some writers say "stew" as just a colorful word for soup.

I guess a stew is fine if the party has stopped to forage for a few days or isn't too far out from town. I don't think it's realistic for a nightly meal. Of course, a lot of times when we zoom in for a scene in the campsite, we pick the two or three days they've stopped to forage just to have more going on in the scene's background. So even if the story is accurate, you'd still see stew a lot more often than you would expect to.

I mean it all depends. How far, how fast, how many people, how frequent the stops . . . you could herd a flock of sheep and a caravan of open wagons full of soil and growing vegetables, driven by oxen. Or you could have one guy with a horse trying to cut through enemy lines to deliver a message, who carries a few rations, goes hungry a lot, and knows the woods well enough to forage for himself.

There's no straightforward answer. But the more people involved, the less believable it is to see them hunt and forage for food as their solution. With a lot of people, you've got to have supply lines.

 

[Jess A]

Devor: Good point about fuel. I've always really thought people made quick soup on the go, not stew. But the point about fire is a good one - in my world, at least, fire might draw some of the nastier, smarter woodland creatures out rather than scare them away.

It'll vary with different settings.

I think given the info, for my characters it will be a mix between foraging/hunting (mostly for the sake of the shape-shifter, who needs to eat a lot to survive and is also selfish enough to keep his kills to himself), carrying rations and a goat or two, and stopping at towns where safe. Just for my own context, even if I don't write about it much. The fact the shape-shifter has caught something and eaten it by himself will annoy the others greatly, so that's a point to mention since it causes conflict. Plus the need to go to a town to get food since it's not safe in some areas (but is in others).

 

[CupofJoe]

The issue with cooking a stew for hours isn't the time but the fuel. That's a fire that has to be watched carefully, and that's not always realistic.

I agree however I've wild camped [no tent, no matches* etc...] and in some strange places and just about ever camp-fire I've ever used has been use for cooking as it's secondary purpose. It is your source of warmth and light. It was a beacon and warning. [And its a good way to keep away the bugs if you can get it to smoke just a bit... but not too much.]
If you are in the wilds [let alone fantasy wilds] it is a good idea to have someone on watch at all times and it is a good and handy thing not to have to light a fire first thing in the morning. Dew can make it a lot harder than you think. A well banked small fire can be kept going [smouldering not flames] with surprisingly little wood.
I can only speak personally but I don't think I know anyone that would willingly wild camp without a fire...

I think some writers say "stew" as just a colorful word for soup.

True! but I like a good soup.

* Okay we had emergency matches and solid fuel stoves in case it got too rough...

 

[Tevaras]

<snip>
The fact the shape-shifter has caught something and eaten it by himself will annoy the others greatly, so that's a point to mention since it causes conflict. Plus the need to go to a town to get food since it's not safe in some areas (but is in others).

Good evening Jess A,

while we are on the subject of the shape-shifter - how does he/she feel about entering the towns? Or for that matter how do her/his companions feel about the shape-shifter entering town. Perhaps that could engender some interesting interplay?

Have a good evening.

 

[Jess A]

Good evening Jess A,

while we are on the subject of the shape-shifter - how does he/she feel about entering the towns? Or for that matter how do her/his companions feel about the shape-shifter entering town. Perhaps that could engender some interesting interplay?

Have a good evening.

Hi Tevaras,

To say there is tension would be an understatement. It's an enormous plot point, particularly as the shape-shifter is one of the main characters.

However, as far as entering towns go, the Duke has more to worry about than the shifter. He's an outlaw in the Kingdom they pass through

Jess

 

[SeverinR]

Therefore (to supply all units in S.I.):
3 lb. = 1.36 kg (one link's claim of food per man per day)
20 lb. = 9.07 kg (one link's claim of food per horse per day)

I hope you have had a productive evening writing .

Just to clarify, the horse requirement is mostly hay, they don't eat 20 lbs of grain a day. So if you aren't in desert or frozen landscape, they can eat off the land a big portion of that 20lbs. If no grass, you will have to carry alot of hay with you. That said a horse should get water too(if no grass, probably no water) so 3-5 gallons a day of water per horse.
If a horse doesn't get enough grass(fiber) or water it can die from digestive issues.
So 10 horses will require a 50gallon barrel of water and 200lbs of food a day, not counting anything for humans. Not a problem when you have lakes and streams and grass for them to eat, but without it, it adds up quickly.

 

[Graylorne]

You don't really need a fire all night, if I remember well. You dig a hole, isolate it with straw and put in your kettle of stew piping hot. Cover it all and the next morning dig it out and it's ready and still warm.

I agree with CupofJoe, a campfire is necessary for morale as much as for food.

Still, hunting, skinning and preparing food cost a lot of time and won't work if you're in a hurry.

 

[Jess A]

You don't really need a fire all night, if I remember well. You dig a hole, isolate it with straw and put in your kettle of stew piping hot. Cover it all and the next morning dig it out and it's ready and still warm.

I agree with CupofJoe, a campfire is necessary for morale as much as for food.

Still, hunting, skinning and preparing food cost a lot of time and won't work if you're in a hurry.

The fire has some issues attached in my setting - no issues keeping it going all night, but it attracts a lot of nasty things (rather than repels). I fully intend to use this to my advantage in any case - for a scene.

---

Again, thanks guys for the conversation!

 

[ALB2012]

I have in various place in my world:
Rabbit
Pheasant/partridge/pigeon
Boars (if you are brave)
Deer
Mutton/goat/pork/ham
Eggs
Fowls
Fish (many sorts)/clams/crabs/other shelfish
Milk (sheep, goats, ewes)
Cheeses ( as above)
Porridge
Oats
Bread/seedbreed (sort of flatbread)
Snake
Bats
Mushrooms
Fruit/berries
Potatoes/root veggies
Lovage
Herbs
Maple seeds

Salamander (although all but one character refuses to eat it. Theoretically it is edible but you probably would have to be desperate.)

 

[Ireth]

I wouldn't recommend eating bats; I've heard eating their meat can be a factor in dementia. That said, one of my characters is driven to do that when he's stuck in a cave with literally no other things to eat, so...

 

[ALB2012]

Same situation really, they have 7 people to feed and there food supplies are on the other side of the mountain. They manage to find the way out of the cave but they have wounded so they have to rest. So it is a case of eat what is available. They do manage to forage enough not to starve to death but there are some odd things to eat.

 

[Tevaras]

Good evening Jess A,

somewhat remiss of me, I have not actually answered your question as to how many humans per pack animal.
Instead I just gave you a pile of data, and left you to do all the calculations
to arrive at a final number.

So, rather belatedly, here is the actual answer you originally asked for.

From what you have written and combining the information in the links posted earlier I will make the following (hopefully accurate) assumptions:
1. Water is readily available and does not need to transported by the party.
2. Only the transport of food is considered, as the amount of camping equipment is too difficult for me to determine from the information given so far, and varies considerably with
climate/temperature.
3. The pack animal is based on the donkey, with a carrying capacity of around 50 kg.
4. The pack animal will consume 1 kg of maize/sorghum/high energy food plus 5 kg of chaff/straw/hay per day of travelling about 25 km.
5. There is plenty of grazing available en route, removing the need to transport the 5 kg per day of chaff/straw/hay.
6. Each 'human' requires 6 kg of food each day.
8. The party walks, if horses are used by some/all humans, then feed requirements for horses will need to be added, which I have not done.
7. The party of eight will travel 7 days before it is possible/advisable to replenish supplies. In 7 days the party will travel around 175 km.

Taking above into account, in 7 days of wilderness travel, the group of 8 (assuming no attrition, though you mention that) will need 8 pack animals. Or each pack animal can transport the food requirements for itself and one 'human'. Depending on how light they travel, you might want to add a pack animal or two (with 43 kg or 86 kg of equipment respectively) for camping and other equipment.

Somewhat more generally if you wish to modify some of the assumptions the following formula could be used:

(Np x Lp) + (Nm x Lm) = D x ((Nh x Fh) + (Np x Fp) + (Nm x Fm)) + E

Where:
Np = number of pack animals
Nh = number of 'humans' in the group
Nm = number of mounts
Lp = load/carrying capacity of single pack animal (assuming each pack animal has the same carrying capacity, if not average across pack animals) [kg]
Lm = spare (after rider and their 'clothes' and worn equipment) carrying capacity of single mount (assuming each mount has the same carrying capacity, if not average across mounts) [kg]
D = number of days between possible/advisable food/supplies replenishments
Fh = food requirements of single 'human' in the group (assuming the same for all 'humans', if not, average across individuals) per day [kg]
Fp = food requirements of single pack animal per day (assuming pack animal has the same daily food requirements, if not average across pack animals) [kg]
Fm = food requirements of single mount (assuming all mounts have the same daily food requirements, if not average across mounts) per day [kg]
E = mass of other equipment (including mass of food storage containers) apart from food carried [kg]

Mass units can be whatever you want (lbs. or some other exotic unit), as long as they are consistent.

 

[TWErvin2]

A good stew takes more than an hour to boil over an open flame. It's passible after an hour, but especially if it's harsh weather out, it takes a while, at least from my camping days experience.

Think about streams and such when foraging...frogs, cattails, crayfish, fish, turtles, mussels, etc.

 

[Weaver]

A good stew takes more than an hour to boil over an open flame. It's passible after an hour, but especially if it's harsh weather out, it takes a while, at least from my camping days experience.

Think about streams and such when foraging...frogs, cattails, crayfish, fish, turtles, mussels, etc.

Yeah, don't the turtles when you're foraging. (My clone almost did his master's thesis on turtles, Optimal Foraging Theory, and the Clovis people.)


There must be a BIG difference between stew and soup, despite the ingredients being so similar. I make a lot of soup from scratch. From start to finish -- this means chopping raw veggies, cutting the meat into small pieces, and cooking everything until done -- it takes me maybe an hour, and that's only because I cook it on low heat to allow the rosemary time to meditate. Nor has it ever taken me longer to cook when doing so over a fire instead of a kitchen stove.

Of course, the amount of stew/soup being prepared will definitely affect the cook time. Feeding a smallish caravan of merchants and their guards is would be a lot more work than feeding one fantasy author.

If your story characters were to make their stew using, say, dried-out sausages instead of freshly killed rabbit, they could have a hot meal as soon as the veggies in the stew were done. (I'm thinking of this because I have, in my own fridge right now, a package of "Lit'l Smokies" sausages that are destined to be put into soup soon.)