Having trouble with chapter pacing

[BiggusBeardus]

Hello!

I'm trying to write an outline based on the Hero's Journey and the 3 Act structure using this model as a guide:

Right now, my plan is 30 chapters around 4000 words each give or take. I'm not dead set on those numbers, they are just my basic goal for now.

I'm having trouble pacing the chapters. Right now I'm all the way up to the 25% mark/Crossing the Threshold/Plot Point One with only 3 chapters. 25% is 6-7 chapters. And 2 of those chapters are travel time. I'm concerned about filler and being boring. I have stuff happening. There are bad guys pursuing my 2 MCs and eventually they catch up and fight. I'm trying to create some suspense for the rest of the scenes, but like I said, it's mostly travel. If I hand wave it from location to location I feel like something is being left out. But if I fill it in with pointless dialogue and random encounters that don't move the plot forward it runs the risk of being boring.

If I fast forward ALL the travel in one chapter, it feels too rushed. My Act 2 would be HUGE. I'm struggling here.

Anyone have any pacing tips? I enjoy talking things out here with the community.

 

[ThinkerX]

My 'Empire' series was originally supposed to be six books. Given the way the main part of the story ended, a 'resolution' seemed in order. That, I figured, could be taken care of with a lengthy epilogue tacked onto the end of book six. I figured it would be 20-30,00-words. Forty thousand words in and the epilogue story barely underway told me that notion wasn't going to work. So, that epilogue became a new book, 'Exiles.' Just the rough draft for 'Exiles' tops 140,000 words. Finishing it properly will tack on another 40,000 words. (That is one of the projects for this year).

The point? The tale will be as long as it needs to be. Right now, your outline is telling you it is going to be really big.

 

[Penpilot]

Like ThinkerX, the novel I'm working on right now, I planned for it to be around 50k words. When I did the outline, I thought the story would be straightforward and quick to run through. Chapters were supposed to be around 2500 words. When I started writing, that's where things tended to fall, but the further along I got, the longer the chapters became. Each chapter was now running between 10-15K. I'm on my third draft and the novel is just shy of 190K. Whoops.

For me, I've found that it's better to write too much and have to cut than it is to write too little and have to find the words to fill the gaps.

Get the story down first, then edit, add, change, and cut as necessary.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

Like ThinkerX, the novel I'm working on right now, I planned for it to be around 50k words. When I did the outline, I thought the story would be straightforward and quick to run through. Chapters were supposed to be around 2500 words. When I started writing, that's where things tended to fall, but the further along I got, the longer the chapters became. Each chapter was now running between 10-15K. I'm on my third draft and the novel is just shy of 190K. Whoops.

For me, I've found that it's better to write too much and have to cut than it is to write too little and have to find the words to fill the gaps.

Get the story down first, then edit, add, change, and cut as necessary.

You're right about getting the story down first THEN edit.

I've been attempting to write for years, but I'm still a noob. I still spend time on the "wrong" things. I used to research and worry about publishing and marketing and all that with ZERO words written. I've thankfully gotten over that, but I still have other demons to slay.

I listen to and read all this writing advice material and it gets stuck in my head and I end up thinking my first draft has to be a perfectly polished novel. I feel like if I'm not following all the advice I'm taking in then I'm failing. I need to get over that.

ThinkerX You're right, the story will be as long as it needs to be. I'm trying to be cautious though. If this first novel gets published traditionally, I am wary of its length. Even Tolkien was made to split the Lord of the Rings into 3 volumes because it was too big and the publishers didn't think it would sell.

Thanks for the responses folks! It really helps me to discuss this stuff with people.

 

[skip.knox]

>I'm trying to write an outline based on the Hero's Journey and the 3 Act structure using this model as a guide:

Why?

Serious question. I can understand an author taking the model and wondering if they can write a story that fits the model. A kind of experiment or personal challenge. OTOH, if you are thinking that having the guide will make the journey easier (the usual meaning of a guide), then you are already discovering the fallacy in that. Have you considered throwing it all out and just asking yourself what your story is about?

As for length or other characteristics, you'll do much better getting the thing written, then letting an editor and then an agent worry how the thing might look to a publisher.

You say you have three chapters, of which two are travel chapters. That would be worrisome in a final draft, but you're still at the front end of things. Go ahead and write all those travel chapters. Odds are you'll throw out most of it, unless important stuff happens along that road. Either way, you're learning--about your own process, about your characters, about the world.

You asked how we do pacing. That topic is larger than you might think but I'll contribute just this much. I do pay attention to the transition between chapters. The note I'm forever making to myself is, lean forward. By which I mean, end in such a way that the reader will want to turn the page rather than put the book down. This doesn't mean a cliffhanger, it just means paying attention to how the chapter ends (last few paragraphs). I try not to end with everyone going to sleep, for example. Or all agreeing on something, unless it's agreeing to launch the attack or some such. Even then, it's stronger to start the battle. Gear up. Saddle up.

Lean forward.

There are other aspects to pacing, but here's one that isn't ever an aspect: how closely does my story map to someone else's schema?

 

[BiggusBeardus]

>I'm trying to write an outline based on the Hero's Journey and the 3 Act structure using this model as a guide:

Why?

Serious question. I can understand an author taking the model and wondering if they can write a story that fits the model. A kind of experiment or personal challenge. OTOH, if you are thinking that having the guide will make the journey easier (the usual meaning of a guide), then you are already discovering the fallacy in that. Have you considered throwing it all out and just asking yourself what your story is about?

Why? Honestly, they seem to be the models that build the strongest stories and are used widely in writing and movies and have been the go to models for a LONG time, maybe even as far back as ancient Greece or before.

But as I struggle with it, I am starting to wonder if I am a "discovery writer" AKA a "pantser." I feel like I need to plan some direction, but I'm obsessing over details as I outline and it is slowing me down.

I have not considered throwing it all out (yet). Since this is my first novel, I'm trying to do thing "by the book" (no pun intended). I'm 43 years old and I've always done things "my way" and it never works out well. I'm concerned that if I disregard structure then my story will fall flat and miss critical pieces. Using a model/structure is SUPPOSED to help with that.

If I don't use a structure, how do I keep my story from being all over the place and filled with unnecessary detail, and still include all the "necessary" parts of a good story?

Thanks for your response.

 

[Penpilot]

ThinkerX You're right, the story will be as long as it needs to be. I'm trying to be cautious though. If this first novel gets published traditionally, I am wary of its length. Even Tolkien was made to split the Lord of the Rings into 3 volumes because it was too big and the publishers didn't think it would sell.

If I don't use a structure, how do I keep my story from being all over the place and filled with unnecessary detail, and still include all the "necessary" parts of a good story?

Being prepared is great. Trying to think ahead is great. But, at the end of the day, this is your first novel. You are going to make mistakes no matter how prepared you are. There are many-many things that can only be learned and understood by doing, and doing, and doing.

IMHO, you're putting too many expectations on what your story will be and what it should be instead of letting it be what it is. Brandon Sanderson wrote 13 novels before his 6th novel got picked up and published. Expecting your first novel to be at a professional level is like reading about baseball, watching baseball, but never having played or practised the game, and expecting to be able to step onto the field and play like a professional on your first try.

Unless you are some super genius, with uber tallent, it's best to shrug off these expectation and think of this as the first step on a long road to being published. There are many lessons yet to be learned, many mistakes to be made and learned from, and to get to where you want to be, it's going to take many attempts. How many games and practises do you think a pro baseball player has participated in before they step onto the field for the first time as a pro?

Right now, it sounds like you're defining success as writing a flawless story on the first try. Don't do that. Unreasonable expectations only sets you up for great disappointment. Think of this as a small step, and then, throw caution to the wind, and go for it. Success right now is finishing the darn thing. Period.

my2cents

 

[ThinkerX]

A few things here...

First off, when I write, I 'see' the scenes as 'mental movie clips.' I then write those scenes.

Second, I used to just take an idea and start writing. That, however, put me in a bind when I couldn't 'see' the continuation - the next 'mental movie clip' in the series.

These days, I do not begin a new story without having solid ideas about the beginning, middle, and end. For shorter works - under ten or twelve thousand words - I don't use an outline or notes. Longer tales get a separate 'work' file - an outline that lists the 'mental movie clips,' plus a sort of glossary that names characters and places. The outline is seldom more than three or four pages long and tends to get abandoned or rewritten as the story progresses.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

Being prepared is great. Trying to think ahead is great. But, at the end of the day, this is your first novel. You are going to make mistakes no matter how prepared you are. There are many-many things that can only be learned and understood by doing, and doing, and doing.

IMHO, you're putting too many expectations on what your story will be and what it should be instead of letting it be what it is. Brandon Sanderson wrote 13 novels before his 6th novel got picked up and published. Expecting your first novel to be at a professional level is like reading about baseball, watching baseball, but never having played or practised the game, and expecting to be able to step onto the field and play like a professional on your first try.

Unless you are some super genius, with uber tallent, it's best to shrug off these expectation and think of this as the first step on a long road to being published. There are many lessons yet to be learned, many mistakes to be made and learned from, and to get to where you want to be, it's going to take many attempts. How many games and practises do you think a pro baseball player has participated in before they step onto the field for the first time as a pro?

Right now, it sounds like you're defining success as writing a flawless story on the first try. Don't do that. Unreasonable expectations only sets you up for great disappointment. Think of this as a small step, and then, throw caution to the wind, and go for it. Success right now is finishing the darn thing. Period.

my2cents

This is why I need people to discuss things with me. It helps me think and some of you aren't afraid to dish out the "hard" truth. You are right. Perfectionism is a fatal flaw of mine. It has held me back in every aspect of my life all my life. I don't get things perfect on the first try and I give up. That's why I've been "writing" since 1994 and have nothing to show for it. Since last year I have committed to getting a story finished instead of giving up when it isn't perfect. But I've obviously got some internal hurdles to jump. Thank you for being honest and firm.

And for the record, I am a super genius... just too smart for my own damn good lol

 

[BiggusBeardus]

A few things here...

First off, when I write, I 'see' the scenes as 'mental movie clips.' I then write those scenes.

Second, I used to just take an idea and start writing. That, however, put me in a bind when I couldn't 'see' the continuation - the next 'mental movie clip' in the series.

These days, I do not begin a new story without having solid ideas about the beginning, middle, and end. For shorter works - under ten or twelve thousand words - I don't use an outline or notes. Longer tales get a separate 'work' file - an outline that lists the 'mental movie clips,' plus a sort of glossary that names characters and places. The outline is seldom more than three or four pages long and tends to get abandoned or rewritten as the story progresses.

I do the movie scene visualization too! But where I struggle is connecting those scenes into a cohesive story. I have plenty of scenes in my head, but some I have trouble putting them down on "paper."

Thanks for your response!

 

[ThinkerX]

I do the movie scene visualization too! But where I struggle is connecting those scenes into a cohesive story. I have plenty of scenes in my head, but some I have trouble putting them down on "paper."

Thanks for your response!

Putting the scenes in order is where the outline comes in handy. Even so, right up until the last draft, I have scenes and occasionally even chapters move places within the book.

As to writing the scenes, my tales are 'told' through POV characters. The mental movie clips are written from what they see, hear, know, and think.

Each chapter is almost a mini story in its own right. In some cases, they are short stories - often written for challenges on this site. Most of the chapters begin with the character having a goal. To attain that chapter goal, they contend with various obstacles and challenges.

Aka - Kyle is ordered by his boss to find a wainwright to fix her carriage. He finds several - but they are overpriced.

Then 'something happens.'

In Kyle's case, that something is a 'magic shop.' (Kyle is a petty wizard). He stops in and chats with the proprietor, who tells him about a 'new star' and 'rituals in the swamp' - more things for him to worry about.

Or - Goal - Obstacle/Challenge - Resolution - New Event/Disaster.

 

[Mad Swede]

I don't understand why you're trying so hard to follow those models. Not all story telling traditions have structures like that, so don't stare yourself blind at them. My stories, no matter whether they're novels or short stories, certainly don't follow any of those structures.

Write your story, all the way through. Then worry about what structure it has and what model it does or does not follow. Yes, you can sketch an outline if you wish. You should think the story through so that you know roughly where you want it to go. But you must write the story, all the way to the end. Then you can think about how to divide it into chapters. I never think in terms of how many chapters a novel will have, or how many words it will be in total. I just write the story and then (with the help of my editor) divide it into chapters.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think that with the answers so far coming from more experienced writers here, I can tell you that as an inexperienced writer who has not yet finished a first draft, I can understand why you are following a pre-structured plan - I have used a very basic 3 act structure and I have a goal word count with word counts for each chapter to keep me on track. It’s a bit like fumbling around in the dark when you’re inexperienced at something like this and using a structure like this can help give you a flashlight showing you the way.

But at the same time, I am nearing my the end of a first draft and I have found that to just write it is also a good way to just get it down on the page and evaluating everything afterwards.

I think if you are coming from a place of an experienced reader of books, you might find that you already have an idea of how flow works, and where you need to break sections up into chapters. If you don’t tend to read much it might be harder to already have that knowledge.

 

[Finchbearer]

Also, personally I do not subscribe to the movie scene idea - totally different medium. Maybe it helps if you are a visual thinker but I’m not sure they can be transposed onto the page in the same way.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

I don't understand why you're trying so hard to follow those models. Not all story telling traditions have structures like that, so don't stare yourself blind at them. My stories, no matter whether they're novels or short stories, certainly don't follow any of those structures.

Write your story, all the way through. Then worry about what structure it has and what model it does or does not follow. Yes, you can sketch an outline if you wish. You should think the story through so that you know roughly where you want it to go. But you must write the story, all the way to the end. Then you can think about how to divide it into chapters. I never think in terms of how many chapters a novel will have, or how many words it will be in total. I just write the story and then (with the help of my editor) divide it into chapters.

I just thought that's what people are supposed to do. All youtube videos aside, all the writing advice/how to books seem to say that you need to outline and you need a structure.

But I get what you are saying. Yesterday I told myself I'm just going to write and see what comes out. Like you said, I'll worry about the structure after I have a rough draft and something to work with.

Thanks for the response.

 

[skip.knox]

>Why? Honestly, they seem to be the models that build the strongest stories and are used widely in writing and movies and have been the go to models for a LONG time, maybe even as far back as ancient Greece or before.

It's worth pointing out that the models did not precede the stories. The models don't cause the stories. Rather, varoius literary critics looked at big wads of stories and noticed certain patterns. They (I'm looking at you, Joseph Campbell) were not trying to analyze what stories were successful; they were looking for patterns across cultures. Naturally, the more literary critics looked, the more models they "found". I put that in quotes because what they are really doing is inventing a paradigm that works for them and helps them explain certain aspects of storytelling.

So we're taking the results of an investigation, a kind of literary version of a statistical sample, and trying to apply it to an individual case. Any statistician will tell you that isn't valid.

I dislike all such models, but only as an author. They're fine for literary analysis--that's what they were designed for. They are not a formula for producing a successful story. My complaint about all the advice is that the models get represented (misrepresented) as a formula. Follow these seven steps and you'll be on your way! (be sure to click subscribe)

Write your story. Write it even though you don't know what sort of shape it should take, how it will turn out, or even whether or not you can do it. Write your story, all the way to the end. The OP on this thread has already made this resolution, which is crucial. I recommend you put your blinders on, shoulder the yoke, and plod every day. I would say plod forward, but you are likely to go sideways, back some, go in circles, and occasionally collapse in tears. Count on it.

Once it's done, all the way done and you've clicked Publish so you don't keep messing with it, I invite you to pull out those models and see if your story fits any of them. You might be surprised. You might be proud. You might have a good laugh. But the book will still be done.

 

[Mad Swede]

I just thought that's what people are supposed to do. All youtube videos aside, all the writing advice/how to books seem to say that you need to outline and you need a structure.

There are times when I despair of some writing advice and books about how to write. As skip.knox has commented, those story structures and models were originally intended for literary analysis. Yet too many people write books and maintain websites telling you that your story has to follow this or that model. And I'm sorry but that's just b******t, because what they show is that in reality they don't know that much about writing. Your story needs to draw the reader in, it needs to flow and it needs to read well. That's all about a good plot, good characterisation and good dialogue. It isn't about applying a certain structure to the story.

 

[ThinkerX]

Also, personally I do not subscribe to the movie scene idea - totally different medium. Maybe it helps if you are a visual thinker but I’m not sure they can be transposed onto the page in the same way.

Transcribing the mental movie clips to the written word is a challenge - but it is doable. It means keeping the descriptive material short - what stands out right away about a person. place, or object, and constraining the action to what the character can see or directly experience.

 

[Finchbearer]

Transcribing the mental movie clips to the written word is a challenge - but it is doable. It means keeping the descriptive material short - what stands out right away about a person. place, or object, and constraining the action to what the character can see or directly experience.

Do you think for you it serves as more of a starting point for a scene to play out?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Ok! Here we go. You've watched lots of movies and read lots of books over the years, so deep down, you know the structure of story. It's quite possible that "story" is hammered into your DNA by now. Beginning—Middle—End. Study the hell out of story structure, it's good for you and your writer's soul. However, don't get locked into a structure prison, in particular with Hero's Journey, as it can begin to feel cliche.

Quick takes:
Everything is 3-Act. People dress it up in a lot of frilly clothes, but it's still 3-Act. After years of screenwriting and exploring other people's theories... yeah. But, 3-act is extremely flexible. Subplots are your friend here and everywhere unless you go crazy with too many.
Hero's Journey does not need all of the steps, nor must they all be in order to be a Hero's Journey.

Travel chapters, DO be concerned that the book begins to feel like a D&D game with random encounters to add zest. GRRM has a travel chapter that when I read it, I was thinking—"What the hell was the point of that?" the answer? Travel. And maybe the character hadn't made an appearance in a while, and we needed to know where she was. I think it was Arya. Personally, he could have dropped the chapter, but he felt he needed it. Travel is one of the major points in storytelling where Telling is vital. I have characters who spend 3 months on a ship... sheeeeit. You could spend half a book boring the crap out of the reader, teach them the day-to-days of ship life or maybe whaling, or you can slap down a couple paragraphs of description and get on with the story. This was hard for me to do at first, but it's critical unless your story has natural plot points to hit while traveling. Subplots could do the trick! But don't be afraid to summarize. 10-20k words of slogging through ditches and bogs will entertain scant few readers.

I'd be curious what you mean by outlining: if it's story beats and quick notes, cool. Inciting Event: Ogre steals princess. If it's a full-blown outline, you might ask if that's not your style. I tried outlining for years, and it kept me from finishing anything. I suck! I can't write an outline! Pantsing held struggles, too, but once in screenwriting, I first learned the underlying structure (which I knew but didn't put into words) and eventually learned to just feel for the story beats and write toward them without worrying about structure at all. In the end, it's all there.

I could babble on this stuff for hours, but dinner calls, heh heh.