How can it get any WORSE?

[T.Allen.Smith]

Rules, methods, technique, craft... Whatever label you slap on them, they are intended for one purpose:

To make you think about your writing and make conscious choices regarding how you communicate the story to your reader.

That's it.

Every one of us should have our own personal rules to fall back on, consider as we write, and consciously discard when they impede an effect we deem advantageous. But, how can we consciously discard concepts if we don't thoroughly understand them?

An example:
That last sentence above started with a conjunction. Typically, that's deemed an error in English writing. However, it's also a device that has been used effectively in creative writing time & time again. For me, I'll start sentences with conjunctions for dialogue alone...unless I'm going for a desired effect. That's my rule. I understand the underlying principle. I think about the use of conjunctions as I'm writing. I choose when to break that grammatical rule.

The topic of this thread is no different. For some (like the OP), it may help a great deal to actively think about Making it Worse. She's an experienced writer who's noticed something lacking in her work & she's sought out a technique to address that issue. For others, they may not require that tool now, or ever.

Simply because it doesn't apply to all writers, in every stage of development, doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss craft principles.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Thanks, TA, that's exactly what I meant in the OP. I felt like I had concepts that weren't as fully impactful as I wanted, and by giving them some thought (Helio's thoughts, really), I now have something that has more weight, more impact, and is truer to the concept I wanted to put forth to the reader.

This book by Donald Maass has really opened my eyes to the fact that by asking a series of questions, I can get below the surface of what IS in my story, and think about what could be, based on the answers to the "How to Make it Worse" type-questions. Most of those questions aren't specifically about making it worse, but about creating more depth to my own understanding, though I won't go into those sorts of details in the actual story. I mean, if I can start out with a situation being more dramatic, then that's less wasted lines in introducing the scenario for the reader. I can simply KNOW more about my characters and their situations, right from the beginning, and it helped me to plan how the next events would fall into place.

I have a hard time with story openings. Like a TERRIBLE time with them. I want to spin my wheels for two chapters of stuff happening, without getting to the point. And that's what happened when I asked myself those questions. And Helio's suggestions were paramount in achieving that clarity. At least now I have a fitting opening that will engage the readers I'm targeting. It won't work for every reader, but I've come to grips with that as a reality, and i'm fine with it. I should tailor my openings to capturing a certain kind of reader's attention, and by putting the microscope on certain elements of my story's beginning, I've gotten a lot farther than when I was holding the telescope in my hands.

Yeah, "MIW" is bad advice for a beginning writer. But regardless, I like to share my own experiences here, and I can't write posts for every writer, just as I'm not writing a story for every reader. I stand behind the theories Donald Maass speaks about in his books, maybe not all of them, but a fair number. Enough to want to share those theories with other writers who may be in similar situations.

I had another novel, one I've been working on for years, and in it, WORSE things happened all the time: An arranged marriage, a murder kept secret, mysterious coded messages, a plot to kill the pope...and the real thing that story is missing, is the kind of tension and connectedness I just realized is hopelessly lacking in my writing. I had all the elements there, but nothing deeper to draw the reader in.

With this new excitement over the concepts I've only just grasped, I can't wait to apply these new tools to other work. The thing that's really been frustrating, is that in short stories, I often have all the tools working hard. But in novels, I tend to spin my wheels for whole chapters, wanting to keep my secrets, wanting to begin slow and let the tension build. And in some cases, that's just a mistake.

So, while I understand how continually making things worse would be stupid, taking an original concept and polishing it was frustrating and yielded no results. It was equally stupid, from my perspective, with novels and novels completed but lacking in overall impact. Each of them have dramatic scenes that make readers cry or rage, but overall, the works suffered from a general need to be made stronger. I needed to ask myself those questions. I needed to get to the meat of why things get worse and what it means to the characters and the story.

New writers shouldn't be thinking about making things ever worse. Instead, their focus should be on crafting tales without plot holes, making characters feel three-dimensional rather than cardboard cutouts, etc. but for many writers, who struggle to take their polished drafts and make them commercially viable, my original message was one of sharing that personal experience for their benefit. "Hey guys, I've been struggling to make my stories exciting and engaging, and the one thing I realized today, was that I've failed to make things worse. I need to make character motivations deeper, show it up front. I need to create situations that make people act NOW, rather than letting them float for two chapters in Happyville before the door-doo hits the fan. I need to make things more connected and delete anything that's convenient or coincidental...except for a few red herrings if I want them. I need to NOT shake the hand a few times, just to give readers a scene they'll remember forever, even if they forget my characters' names or what the main story is about."

HA! Especially that last one. Man, it's so silly, when I look back at some of my choices. I see that I had an idea, and I ran with it, never asking myself WHY or what else could be. I committed to things because they seemed logical and I wanted logical outcomes, because I felt that's what would satisfy readers. But I was wrong. i need to challenge readers to still love a story even if it's unpredictable.

Over a year ago, TA Smith suggested a new ending for that previous book, one that wasn't the "happily ever after" I had planned. And I LOVED it. The bittersweet ending. The twist at the end. The thing that more fully accomplished my SINGLE goal in that novel--that a reader would read the last page and immediately want to go back to the first and watch for all the clues I gave that they missed.

Each story must have its own goals, of course. My goals might seem silly to some writers. I'm okay with that. The thing is, I can only be who I am. I can only write for people who enjoy the kinds of things I want to show. I can't write something to please folks that are looking for a product I'm not selling, because I'm good at this one thing, being me. There's a lot of tools I'll never be able to use, but I've given them an honest go, just to see what could happen. Unfortunately, my stories are somewhat limited by my own abilities. I can't plot my way out of a paper bag, and I can't world-build, either. So I tell stories that reflect the human condition, and to do that, I think "making it worse" is just the right advice. Don't make her sad, make her distraught enough to act. Don't hint at danger hiding in the bushes, show the glowing eyes. And that's what I've been missing for pretty much my whole time writing.

Powerful scenes sometimes, but not powerful stories.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi Penpilot.

All writing advice used or interpreted incorrectly has the potential to not only ruin stories and create messes, it can ruin your ability to write. I speak from personal experience on this. But that doesn't mean one should ignore the potential of using a particular piece of advice.

I've said this before. Writing adivce is a tool, and like all tools, it can build you a house or tear one down. It's the skill of the weilder that determins if hammer strikes the nail's head or the thumb. And how does one become more skilled with a hammer? Probably by hitting a fair share of thumbs along the way.

But no matter how skilled you get, there's still the risk of striking a thumb, but does that mean we should stop using hammers? Ever?

The first thing I want to say is that I am speaking from personal experience too. It's kind of sad and disheartening to me that nobody has said "Well, Sheilawisz is a very experienced writer/storyteller, she has finished many stories and people have praised her work. Maybe we should listen to her".

My comments are just being either criticized or ignored by most people here, simply because I go against your favorite views and beliefs about how stories should be written and told.

After thinking a little more about this whole thing, I came to the conclusion that M.I.W. (as it was described at the start of this discussion) should be considered a Brainstorming Device, and that's all. It can be useful to play with ideas before you start a story, or perhaps sometimes to find a new path when you really have no idea what happens next in the narration.

It's presenting the thing as a good advice for all purposes, or even a wonderful formula for fantastic storytelling, that I strongly disagree with.

There's an art and a science to writing. To me, the science of writing is the craft, and craft is the tools in your toolbox and your ablity to use them.

Yes, learning to use tools can be hard and make things seem harder to do.

But to me, it's like athletics, many just want to go out and play the game. It's simple just go out run, kick, jump, hit, skate, or throw. But if one wants to be a professional althlete, one has to learn about technique and understand the mechanics of what they want to do with their bodies. They have to know nutrition, and how to build their bodies to perform. This inaddition to just practicing the game.

That's the science of it. The art builds off the science and is reflected in an athete's performance, the way the read game situations and how they react.

So the science of writing lies in the tools. The art lies in how we use them.

And like any tool, there will be favorites in the toolbox, there will be ones that never get touched, and there will be ones that never even make it into the toolbox. Where a tool ends up is personal taste, and it's not one tool fits all. It's whatever tool works for you.

The tools and rules of writing are the technical aspects. Knowing all of the technical and scientific side helps you to write great articles, essays and that kind of material, but when it's about telling stories we are not just writers anymore: We are narrators, storytellers, artists of imagination.

Some people in this discussion keep comparing telling stories to technical things like carpentry and athletics, while it's much more accurate to compare storytelling to artistic wood carving and composing music and songs. All the stuff that I have been talking about is far more important than following technical rules and advice.

Edit: I remember an episode of Writing Excuses where Mary Robinette Kowal talked about her expereince with writing a story on a deadline. The jist of it was inspiration failed so she had to fall back on craft to make the story good. In essence the art failed her so she fell back on science, and if memory serves the story came out well.

That can be done, true. And I would bet a considerable amount of money on the fact that the story in question would have been ten times better if she had been allowed enough time to follow her inspiration and artistic instincts, rather than the scientific approach to storytelling.

 

[Chessie]

I don't think necessarily that people are ignoring your point, Sheila. Then again, I can't speak for everyone. But what I see here are people with passions for writing, something we all share, but we have different ways of doing the exact, same thing which is tell stories.

Writers not feeling respected and appreciated for their own work methods is the main reason why I get annoyed when people say: "oh, but that's a RULE you're supposed to do do it that. Everyone does it that way. Why don't you? What's the matter with you?

Because at the end of the day, whether we write for hobby or to pay the bills, two things are certain:

1. We all love to write.
2. We all love to write to an audience.

I don't care how someone else does it because it doesn't affect my way or ability to do it. So I don't think that people are automatically rejecting what you're saying. It has more to do with the fact that we all have a way to do things and feel comfortable with that.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi Chesterama.

I don't think that other people in this discussion are just ignoring my comments, but instead I am being criticized by some and ignored by others. It's like my views came from somebody that has never written a story, let alone a good one, so there is no point in even considering that what I am saying could be true.

No, I actually do not love to write. I would very much prefer to display my stories as a visual medium, and in case that I could easily create them as movies instead of words, that's what I would be doing instead. Writing has certain advantages, but I also feel that it somehow limits my descriptions of what I am seeing in my mind.

What I love is to tell stories, and yes, I love to tell them to an audience.

 

[FifthView]

Ok, then.

I never, ever even think of those things that you listed while I am writing a story. I never ask myself any of those How can this? and How can I? questions because I just let the story flow, and whenever that I am doing something wrong I just feel Something is not alright here and do not go any further until it has been done well.

We are not supposed to make a path for the characters, they are supposed to make their own path and we tell it. In case that you need to make everything well designed and planned it means that you do not have a good enough story with you, and having a good story to tell is the most important ingredient in what we do.

There is the romantic notion that characters just write themselves into the story, and I halfway agree. Objectively, I know that those characters simply are not real people; they aren't typing away at the keyboard; they do not write the story. But I do believe that our own minds can conjure up fictional characters so well, so easily (wish this happened 100% of the time...) that, if we stay true to those characters, it will seem as if the characters are doing the writing. Ultimately I think that saying the characters do it themselves is mumbo jumbo hand-waving. But I honestly don't know where the ideas come from, what inspiration is, why I have the thoughts that I do; and why I instinctively know some characters will do such-and-such a thing but other characters never would—so the end result is half a dozen of one, six of another.

But I think you do a disservice when you claim that everyone should operate this way. Talk about creating rules. It is really as if you are saying everything about writing is nothing more than being in a trance state and letting the spirit (of characters, of your world, whatever) do the writing. And so of course this means that any discussion whatsoever about the art of writing, the skill of writing, the conscious appraisal of our own writing and the conscious consideration of what may be done to improve our writing—all of that is heresy. So we might as well shut up and just let the words flow.

But I can say with near 100% certainty that some successful authors do nearly have "everything well designed and planned," and this doesn't mean their stories suck. (I include the "nearly" because even the most....devout outliners often allow themselves to discover new things about their stories as they write.)

And I do think that what you describe for yourself is nearly pantsing. But there isn't a clear, exclusive dichotomy, where either 0% is planned before one starts typing the draft or 100% is planned before beginning to write it. Lots of room between 0 and 100. So yes, some pantsers nonetheless have some idea of the story they want to tell and the characters they want to use before they begin to write. Some outliners only outline the major plot points but leave some gaps to be "discovered" later. Lots of room. But I feel as if you will dismiss any claims that an approach other than yours—letting the Storyteller within just work its magic—are good also.

Now, an olive branch. From my experience, different people write differently, and some who write best in the way you write might indeed be derailed if they tried to do complicated outlines before writing. (And some who work best with outlines might run into all kinds of problems if they pants the whole thing.)

 

[Penpilot]

The first thing I want to say is that I am speaking from personal experience too. It's kind of sad and disheartening to me that nobody has said "Well, Sheilawisz is a very experienced writer/storyteller, she has finished many stories and people have praised her work. Maybe we should listen to her".

My comments are just being either criticized or ignored by most people here, simply because I go against your favorite views and beliefs about how stories should be written and told.

It doesn't matter if you're an expereinced writer or not. I don't care if you're (insert big name author here) or a Joe Blow from down the street. If you present a flawed argument, I will point out the flaw. If you don't present a compelling argument to suport your position then I won't agree with it. It's as simple as that.

To accept something as true without compelling support--and I stress the compelling support part here---just because it comes from an expert figure is a logical fallacy.

The tools and rules of writing are the technical aspects. Knowing all of the technical and scientific side helps you to write great articles, essays and that kind of material, but when it's about telling stories we are not just writers anymore: We are narrators, storytellers, artists of imagination.

Some people in this discussion keep comparing telling stories to technical things like carpentry and athletics, while it's much more accurate to compare storytelling to artistic wood carving and composing music and songs. All the stuff that I have been talking about is far more important than following technical rules and advice.

So are you saying the artisitry/creativity in athletics, technical writing, progamming or anything else for that matter is a lesser art than the things you listed?

If the technical aspects of art are so unimportant, why are there art schools and music schools? And in those art and music schools, why do they study techniques used by artists and musicians from the past?

That can be done, true. And I would bet a considerable amount of money on the fact that the story in question would have been ten times better if she had been allowed enough time to follow her inspiration and artistic instincts, rather than the scientific approach to storytelling.

Let me ask you this, does following your inspiration and artistic instincts always lead you to a better story?

If I were to take a story I wrote only using inspiration and artistic instincts and compare it to Mary's, who's do you think would be better? My money's on Mary.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hey again.

FifthView: Yeah, I know that I sound like crazy to you and the others. I don't really care if my approach to Storytelling is called mumbo jumbo handwaving, really. What I care about is to present in this discussion my side of things, the artistic side, in contrast with all the technical style that has been discussed.

If my posts in this thread can make at least one person to consider my ways of storytelling instead of the other way, I would be very happy and satisfied. I am just saying that narrating stories is a form of art instead of something that can be carefully planned and controlled like it was carpentry, and almost everybody goes mad at me.

I also have very talented and famous authors in my side, like Stephen King, J.K. Rowling and Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. I am not even close to being as good as they are and were, but I am in the same school as them. Stephen King has said several times that Plot plays no role in his creative process, and Rowling said that she did not want some of her dearest characters to die but they died anyway.

Yeah, I go into The Zone trance thing sometimes when I am writing a scene, but that does not always happen. Other times I am forcing myself, and things do not always end up to be what I wanted so that causes additional work.

Heavily outlining a story is not really bad, but thinking that the story is completely under your control and you can do whatever that you want with it, is. Stories are living creatures, they sometimes do what they want and not what we want. Also, if there is no real connection between the person and the story, it's very likely that the end result is not going to be very good.

For example, this is why I do not participate in Challenges like Iron Pen and the new Top Scribe by ThinkerX.

Those Challenges present a list of elements to use in a story, but when I read the requisites no story comes to me. The suggested combination does not awake any inspiration in my mind or in my heart, any ideas... No story comes to me, and so I cannot work on the Challenge. To get working on a story, I need that Click moment that I have been talking about.

Storytelling is not like cooking from a recipe, at least not to me.

It doesn't matter if you're an expereinced writer or not. I don't care if you're (insert big name author here) or a Joe Blow from down the street. If you present a flawed argument, I will point out the flaw. If you don't present a compelling argument to suport your position then I won't agree with it. It's as simple as that.

To accept something as true without compelling support--and I stress the compelling support part here---just because it comes from an expert figure is a logical fallacy.

The argument that I have finished not only one, but many stories that have been liked and praised by my readers is not a logical fallacy, it's a fact and it does matter. I am not a great talent but at least I am a decent storyteller capable of writing good and entertaining stories, so my comments in this discussion should not be discarded as easily as you are doing.

The truth is that I have been doing something really good in my craft since a long time ago, you cannot say that it doesn't matter.

So are you saying the artisitry/creativity in athletics, technical writing, progamming or anything else for that matter is a lesser art than the things you listed?

If the technical aspects of art are so unimportant, why are there art schools and music schools? And in those art and music schools, why do they study techniques used by artists and musicians from the past?

Indeed: Athletics, technical writing and programming are nothing like the art of composing music or telling stories. I am not saying that they are lesser things to practice and to master, but that they are different to what we do. There are art schools and music schools because there are indeed technical aspects to be learned, like how to play an instrument.

This brings a good example of my view:

Any person can learn to play the violin or the piano, but not everyone will be able to compose a beautiful, artful song simply because they learned to play the instrument. This is what I mean when I say that telling stories is a form of art too, because you can know all the technical stuff of writing but it takes inspiration and talent to actually write great stories.

Let me ask you this, does following your inspiration and artistic instincts always lead you to a better story?

If I were to take a story I wrote only using inspiration and artistic instincts and compare it to Mary's, who's do you think would be better? My money's on Mary.

Yes, following my inspiration and artistic instincts always leads me to a much better and beautiful story.

I have no idea how good you are so I cannot really answer the second question, but Mary sounds like a great storyteller in case she managed to produce something good under such pressure, so... My money would be on her, too.

Again, I want to say that there are no harsh feelings and this discussion is not personal.

 

[FifthView]

Hey again.

I also have very talented and famous authors in my side, like Stephen King, J.K. Rowling and Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. I am not even close to being as good as they are and were, but I am in the same school as them. Stephen King has said several times that Plot plays no role in his creative process, and Rowling said that she did not want some of her dearest characters to die but they died anyway.

Idea: A young wizard must face an evil wizard and save the world.

Storyteller Spirit: Make it worse. He's an orphan. That evil wizard murdered his parents.

Storyteller Spirit: Make it worse. His new guardians are relatives who already have a son they love, and will treat the young wizard horribly, preferring their own son–even make him sleep in a cupboard under the stairs.

Storyteller Spirit: Make it worse. His new guardians hate everything to do with the wizarding world. So they look down on the young wizard even more, treat him even worse, tell him in no uncertain terms that his slain parents were scum.

Author Interjects: That's too horrible! At least he can get away to the wizarding school, where he'll fit in! I hate making my characters suffer too much. That poor boy.

Storyteller Spirit: He must return every summer to live with those wizard-hating guardians. And that wizarding school grows increasingly dangerous as the years pass. There's a Slytherin house at the school pretty much aligned with the evil wizard. And a potions master that hates the young wizard.....

______________

It's not as if pantsers don't do it also. Just because it comes in a flash, or from the ever-fruitful Storyteller Spirit (or, instinct), doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

A couple points....

1) I feel this discussion has been civil & constructive. I don't believe anyone's ideas have been discounted. Some of us simply disagree on process.

That's okay. If we all had the same processes and ideas, how boring would reading be?

2) I have found things in several posts I agree with.

For example, Sheila, you recently commented that Making it Worse is a brainstorming device. I agree, with a caveat. It's also a device for revision/editing...at least for my process.

The only way a writer can tell if any piece of advice works for their vision is for them to experiment with the method. Why would we ever want to discourage a writer (of any skill level) from experimenting with different ideas? (Yes, even ideas we do not personally agree with.)

"Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor." - Truman Capote

We must try. We will fail. If we persevere, we succeed.

How did I come to my personal set of writing rules? By reading a lot. By writing a lot. By trying to emulate authors I love. By experimenting with different techniques. By failing.

All those have been necessary as I've moved closer to becoming the writer I want to be.

My next big step in improving my chops is to try my hand at humor writing. I've been putting it off for awhile, but I've come to realize my stories lack humor. They're all serious and dramatic, and hopefully suspenseful, but adding a little humor & levity can be a great thing for a story. I need that.

Should I not look for resources that teach the fundamentals of humor writing? Should I not read and emulate successful humor writers? Should I not discuss technique with the like-minded?

That seems like a recipe for failure, or at least, a way to lengthen my path to success.

People in RL generally think I'm a funny guy. I can tell a joke. I can carry a funny tale vocally. But, I struggle to be humorous in writing. How do I change this?

I change it by taking the step CM took. I read a book or two. I debate methods. I examine my past works. I try to write some humor into stories. Maybe I work some exercises. Then, I get feedback.

That's my process. It's not for everyone & I'm not forcing it upon any other writer. I prefer to learn from those who came before me, those with a proven record of commercial success.

Why do I look at a writer's commercial success when considering advice?

Because I want commercial success too.

Yes, writing is art. But, art can be commercially successful. I want to write full time. There's only one way I can achieve that goal.

 

[Heliotrope]

FifthView, as you went through those levels with Harry Potter I was actually shocked to see how "bad" they seemed out of context... and she just kept on going:

- The evil wizard hid bits of his soul so he couldn't be destroyed and the boy has to find them... but one of them is in the boy! (ohhhhhh! Inner conflict).

etc, etc.

But when we read it in context it doesn't 'feel' so extreme, which reminded me of a quote from the book CM and I are reading together...

"It happens at every workshop. After the presenter explains the methods of constant line-by-line tension and demonstrates how it's done by sparking up several randomly mansucript pages, hands shoot up. And anxious participant asks, "Can there be too much tension in a manuscript?"

No.

Let me clear about that.

No.

When you think you have overloaded a manuscript wtih tension, you probably have created just enough to hang on to your reader. What feels like too much to you is barely enough. If you don't believe me, try this: With a pencil in hand, open any average novel and begin to read. Put a tick in the margin when your eyes begin to skim down the page. Draw a margin arrow at the spot where you re-enter the story flow. How much are you skimming?

The parts that you skim have low tension. When readers encounter it in your own work, they do exactly what you do: skim.

You want your readers to read every work, of course, but to do that you need to make magnets of the pages. You need to run an electric current through them. The electricty is micro-tension.

Here's how it works. When you create in your reader an unconcious apprehension, anxiety, worry, question or uncertainty, then the reader will unconciously seek to releive that uneasiness.... by reading the next thing on the page.

A constant stream of tension causes readers to read every word of a novel. They pay close attention.

At - Tension.

It's tempting to limit tension to danger or plot turns.... Tension may even sound to you like "explosion". But remeber that tension has many degrees of simmering temperatures. There's simmering under the surface tension as well as high explosive force.

When a novelist is able to keep you reading even while there is nothing apparently "happening" in a scene, count on it: MIcro-tension is at work. Conversely, when you're reading a high-action sequence and against all logic, it's unexciting, then micro-tension is absent."

Rowling intuitivly loaded up on the simmering under the surface tension in some pretty major ways.

I had never analyzed Harry Potter like that before.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Oh humor. Wouldn't that be fun? I'm with you, TA. And you're right, 100%, that while I was working on this rewrite, I've been more sensitive to absorbing craft advice. I never meant to set out to "make it worse" it just hit me in that moment how much I'd failed to capitalize on situations in my books. To me, it was simple. Tyrion got a champion, one who wanted revenge. He fought a great fight. He wins, Tyrion goes free. Prince has his revenge. The Lannisters get to bury their king and no one gets to avenge him. HA!

And I SO thought it was going to happen that way, the pure feeling of joy I experienced being denied my desire has moved me. Deeply.

I never knew I could be so angry and elated at the same time!

I'm struggling to rewrite a first chapter, and for my purposes at this time, with this and other stories, I've now got a real idea of what's going wrong. It isn't even situational, sometimes. Sometimes it's just in sentence structure, or the introduction of a concept. As I show the MC in her situation, I've made it worse, and I love it.

@ Fifth, your Hary Potter reference is exactly what I'm doing right now with Helio. I had a character in a situation, and Helio asked me to show more up front of WHY it all mattered. So I sent her some long emails explaining it, and she responded with some VERY good suggestions for HOW I could make it matter more. How I could make it matter NOW.

@ Sheila and anyone else who feels like I was in some way advocating perpetually raising the stakes, it wasn't what I said, or what I implied. I merely tried to share a very emotional breakthrough I had. I wrote a book that I liked, but it failed to impress about 20 readers. Some liked certain things, some concepts, etc. but overall, it lacked impact. By increasing the tension through making it worse, I now have something loads better than I did.

Perhaps that just points to my failure as a writer or a pantser (as I surely am), but in truth, I aim to publish this novel, and I'm ready to embrace any advice Mr. Maass will give me. I just couldn't fully embrace it until I'd seen it done and felt its impact. But now that I have, you can be sure that I'll reserve that tool for when it's needed. At least, I mean to say that i'm not going to start on page one and pull the rug out from under the reader and character at every turn.

My version of making it worse, is simply to make things feel rawer, use language to more fully capture the scene, and to hopefully evoke the emotion I intend in a reader.

One last note here, with this new turn in the conversation (before it moves on). For me, novels and shorts are two different breeds of beasts. One, I feel very comfortable in getting right in and doing the dirty work (shorts), though I've never written them before a few years ago. The other, i've been writing for a long time, but haven't every really experienced success, because certain things were simply lacking.

Sure, I've written hundreds of shorts, and a dozen full novels, but I've read hundreds more, by aspiring writers. Some were very good, and since reading and commenting on them myself, they've found agents and been published. But the majority were about as successful as mine. They were completed, but lacked in a way that would prevent their commercial success as we've come to think of it. So I know there are loads of folks in exactly my position.

Some of those people are not interested in mass appeal. Some don't want to publish, but wanted feedback to improve their own skills, and I wholly support writers who write for themselves. But I'm in a different place in my journey right now. I need to KNOW why I'm not wowing readers. Wy they praise some of my short stories, but fail to be engaged by the novels i've given so much love and attention. And this moving experience I've just had has really opened my eyes to exactly what I was missing. I wasn't brave.

We're so lucky to have this community, where we can come together for support, whether we're writing for our own therapy and to heal our own psyche, or whether we have a burning desire to see our name in a bookstore. Any path we choose is open to us, and this wonderful place we come to has something for everyone. Again, I'm not sure how this thread became so wide in its interpretation of Make it Worse, but I enjoy hearing everyone's take on how they craft a tale, and how they reach decisions.

It might have been more polarizing than I ever imagined it would be (because most of my threads get a page of comments and then get buried under more popular or funner threads), but I'm excited to see so many people weigh in on how they experience the life of a writer. Some of you guys have shared a large part of your writing journey and your personal lives with me, and I just want you all to know how much I appreciate it. You've made me better. You've made me think. Steel sharpens steel, and with you pushing me on, challenging me, I've grown and continue to grow. Today, I'm telling a story in a way I never knew I could, and I feel really good about that. I'm glad this rewrite is nothing like the first draft I wrote back in 2008. That's PROGRESS. Big time.

And while many of you came here as people intent on writing your first book, many others came here with a pile of work completed, but missing some key elements to being a 21st century story-teller. So I like to share my experiences, on the off chance that my personal story might help someone along some facet of their journey. Whether we fully agree on what writing advice is good, or what it even truly means (I'm remember ing the voice/tone thread, where we had lots of interpretations, too), the more we communicate, the more we can all potentially learn from each other.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hi FifthView.

I take that post about Harry Potter to mean that any story that features challenges, problems and difficult conditions for the character is an example of how good M.I.W. actually is. We all do that to our characters in one way or another because challenge is part of why a story gets to be entertaining, but it does not mean that we must make our characters' lives as difficult as possible.

I give challenges and sad conditions to my characters too, but just the necessary amount, just what the story needs. We should note that the first book of Harry Potter does not take the challenges and complications to an extreme, and it's only in later books that Harry grows as a character and more complex things happen to him.

What would have happened if J.K. Rowling had tried to put in the first book everything that came much later in her series?

Patience, we need Patience because it's another very important aspect of being a successful narrator of stories. In the other hand, the M.I.W. advice encourages new writers to go wild, crazy and ambitious from the very start and that's what is dangerous in this advice, tool or whatever that it is.

I still think that it's better to relegate M.I.W. as a Brainstorming Device and concentrate on telling stories as they are... And having patience too, and having loads and loads of discipline and of love for our stories.

There is also another thing about the HP series that you did not analyze: Even though Harry's past is tragic and he is being mistreated by his aunt and her family, the character encounters a great happiness when he discovers that he will go to a Wizarding School and a whole new world opens for him.

Harry meets incredible new people and he starts a new life... A better life despite all the challenges, so there you have it: Not everything in Storytelling is about making things worse.

 

[Penpilot]

Hey again.
If my posts in this thread can make at least one person to consider my ways of storytelling instead of the other way, I would be very happy and satisfied. I am just saying that narrating stories is a form of art instead of something that can be carefully planned and controlled like it was carpentry, and almost everybody goes mad at me.

Sheilawisz, I don't think anyone is mad at you. I know I'm definiely not. People can pasionately disagree without being mad. Again, definitely not mad, if your car broked down in a snowstorm, I'd still stop and give you a lift.

I also have very talented and famous authors in my side, like Stephen King, J.K. Rowling and Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. I am not even close to being as good as they are and were, but I am in the same school as them. Stephen King has said several times that Plot plays no role in his creative process, and Rowling said that she did not want some of her dearest characters to die but they died anyway.

Here's something interesting. Notes and diagrams show how famous authors including J.K. Rowling and Sylvia Plath planned out their novels | Daily Mail Online

It's a link to a page displaying author notes/charts/plans from a bunch of well known and award winning authors including JK Rowling, whose notes look like a spread sheet. It's a small insight into how much these authors planned things out before writing.

For example, this is why I do not participate in Challenges like Iron Pen and the new Top Scribe by ThinkerX.

Those Challenges present a list of elements to use in a story, but when I read the requisites no story comes to me. The suggested combination does not awake any inspiration in my mind or in my heart, any ideas... No story comes to me, and so I cannot work on the Challenge. To get working on a story, I need that Click moment that I have been talking about.

Storytelling is not like cooking from a recipe, at least not to me.

Have you ever heard the story of how Jim Butcher came to write his Codex Alera series?

To quote from Wikipedia

The inspiration for the series came from a bet Jim was challenged to by a member of the Del Rey Online Writer’s Workshop. The challenger bet that Jim could not write a good story based on a lame idea, and Jim countered that he could do it using two lame ideas of the challenger’s choosing. The “lame” ideas given were “Lost Roman Legion", and “Pokémon”

The first book in the series has a 4.1 stars out of 5 rating on goodreads.

The argument that I have finished not only one, but many stories that have been liked and praised by my readers is not a logical fallacy, it's a fact and it does matter.

I'd suggest you look up arguement from authority fallacy. By this kind of thinking if Stephen King said he wrote while sitting on a tack, and that in fact if anyone wants writing success like his, they must sit on a tack too, then we all should take his word at it without question. Because, well, he's Stephen King.

It may work for him, but I'm not going to believe his claim and sit on a tack unless he made an incredibly compelling agrument for it. Even still, I'd explore if there were other options, because sitting on a tack, well, is sitting on a tack.

This brings a good example of my view:

Any person can learn to play the violin or the piano, but not everyone will be able to compose a beautiful, artful song simply because they learned to play the instrument. This is what I mean when I say that telling stories is a form of art too, because you can know all the technical stuff of writing but it takes inspiration and talent to actually write great stories.

You know how I said all writing advice can be dangerous? Well here's the danger in this line of thinking, and I'll use myself as an example. When I first attempted to write, I struggled. When I was inspired I could put down words, but they didn't add up to a story. And when I wasn't inspired, it was a wasteland. I was discouraged. I wondered if I had the talent for it. My grammar was attrocious, and I wondered if I should even continue to try.

If I'd listened to that talentless voice, I would have given up. Instead, I became a student of writing. The more I learned, the quieter that talentless voice got. Eventually, I stopped worrying about tallent and inspiration as keys to writing a great story, and instead, focused on working harder and smarter.

Three novels and a bunch of short stories later, I find this appoach to be true, for me at least.

Thinking that talent and inspiration rules the day can discourage new writers from even trying because those things may not flow so easily for them. And IMHO it's a tradgedy when someone who wants to write doesn't simply because they don't think they have talent.

Yes, following my inspiration and artistic instincts always leads me to a much better and beautiful story.

From my experience, I found relying on inspiration is like relying on a bad boyfriend/girlfriend. When they come around, it can be fantastic and earthshattering, but you never know when they'll show up, or if they'll show up.

There are times when I write something inspired and then come back to it later and realize it's junk. And there are times when I write something uninspired, think it's junk, only to come back and realize it was pretty good.

And after a story goes through the editing process, I rarely remember what was inspired writing and what wasn't. There's only what works. Everything else goes into the trash, inspired or not.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hey Penpilot.

I cannot speak about the other authors, but as a former fan of the Pottermore site I do know about how many notes and previous planning J.K. Rowling did before the novels. The difference is that most of her notes are background story for her characters and vast worldbuilding material, and not a concise guide about how to write every part of her stories.

As a matter of fact, I do outlining too (at least, within my mind) and I used to do it by means of paper when I was much less experienced, a long time ago. Outlining helps, but it does not guarantee that your story will end up being just what you wanted it to be or that it's going to be a great story simply because you planned it so well.

Sometimes you are sure that certain event in particular is going to happen and when the moment comes it does not take place, or it does happen but in a different way that you did not anticipate.

I have not read Codex Alera, but if the author could use two very separate ideas that worked so well it's because they combined and Clicked something in him. It has happened to me too, but only sometimes because when random ideas are thrown at me the most likely result is that there will be no inspiration and no sparks flying.

About the authority fallacy, I think you are just exaggerating it. If J.K. Rowling herself said that we should jump from a bridge and hit our heads against a rock in order to become great narrators, do you think people would do it? I would not, because that's obviously a stupid thing to do.

What I am saying is that, considering that I have finished many stories myself and these stories have been liked and praised by multiple readers, it means that my views and comments in this thread should not be ignored or either discarded so easily. It's not that I am an unquestionable authority, but I am not a clueless novice either.

If a person wants to learn artistic wood carving, who should this person seek? A person that has experience in the art and has already carved some cool pieces, or somebody else that knows the theory of carving wood but has never produced anything for real?

Who would you choose? I would go with the person that has already demonstrated to have a solid capability in the craft, which is what I already have done with my Showcase and Challenge stories... And yet, my personal experience does not seem to matter to many people in this discussion.

From my experience, I have discovered that inspiration will not always be there for me when I sit down and start writing a chapter or a scene. Those are the moments when I force myself to keep advancing, which sometimes works great and other times not as good.

Other times, inspiration shows up and I go all Zone and it works like wonders.

However, one single moment of inspiration can mean that an entire story comes to me all of a sudden and starts screaming: Tell me! Tell me! Tell me, now!, and that's all that it takes to start a wonderful journey with new characters and new adventures to cherish and enjoy.

I have observed something here in Mythic Scribes, and that is how most people in the community are very worried about writing rules and the technical aspects of writing in general. At the same time, most of the time in the Forums or the Chat I keep hearing about struggles and trouble...

In comparison, you should see the quality of storytelling that is often seen at a very well known site dedicated to Fanfictions. Those people are not constantly discussing technical stuff, they simply start to tell their stories following some kind of natural instinct and their work is often surprisingly good.

So many people can tell good stories, if they do not mess themselves up thinking that they need to have a perfect knowledge of technicalities first. Yes, some people may be scared away by the thought that they do not have enough talent, but most of them will try their skills anyway and discover that they can do it quite well.

The main reason for my offensive against the M.I.W. as a storytelling advice is that I have realized that many people in our community are trying to find something like a perfect formula for writing great stories, like it was all about how to play excellent Chess games, and no... Such a formula simply does not exist, it's the wrong path to follow.

It's good to know that you are not mad at me.

 

[Penpilot]

Hey Penpilot.
As a matter of fact, I do outlining too (at least, within my mind) and I used to do it by means of paper when I was much less experienced, a long time ago. Outlining helps, but it does not guarantee that your story will end up being just what you wanted it to be or that it's going to be a great story simply because you planned it so well.

Sometimes you are sure that certain event in particular is going to happen and when the moment comes it does not take place, or it does happen but in a different way that you did not anticipate.

I agree. Like I said before, writing is art and science. Using one or the other or even both doesn't guarantee a great story or even a good story. But IMHO, the more you learn about writing certainly increases the chances.

About the authority fallacy, I think you are just exaggerating it.

The example I gave is most definitely an exageration. All I'm saying is if someone makes a claim, it doesn't matter who it comes from. I won't believe it or agree with it unless they can present me with a compelling reason to do. That's all.

What I am saying is that, considering that I have finished many stories myself and these stories have been liked and praised by multiple readers, it means that my views and comments in this thread should not be ignored or either discarded so easily. It's not that I am an unquestionable authority, but I am not a clueless novice either.

I don't think anyone is ignoring your comments. There are many reasons why people may not necessarily have acknowledged your comments. Maybe people just don't have a specifice response, or when threads move fast like this one did, posts can get lost in the shuffle.

I know there are times when I make comments and all I get are crickets. In retrospect, I find sometimes I could have stated things better. Other times, someone makes similar point, only they stated it in a way that's more inducive to comments and responses. I know it happend to me with my first post in this thread. I said some things that didn't garner any response, but then someone else stated similar things but only way more eloquently and got plenty of responses and comments.

If a person wants to learn artistic wood carving, who should this person seek? A person that has experience in the art and has already carved some cool pieces, or somebody else that knows the theory of carving wood but has never produced anything for real?

First thing I'd do is ask why someone who doesn't carve would know enough about carving theory to teach it.

But honestly, I'd go to the artisic person and discuss and learn art theory with them, then I'd go to the technical person and learn the technical side of things from them. You don't have to choose one or the other.

I have observed something here in Mythic Scribes, and that is how most people in the community are very worried about writing rules and the technical aspects of writing in general. At the same time, most of the time in the Forums or the Chat I keep hearing about struggles and trouble...

In comparison, you should see the quality of storytelling that is often seen at a very well known site dedicated to Fanfictions. Those people are not constantly discussing technical stuff, they simply start to tell their stories following some kind of natural instinct and their work is often surprisingly good.

But here's the thing, the populations of each site probably have different goals. Here, many of us aspire to be published and make a living at writing. To do that we must improve and learn ways to improve, and there's a certain self imposed pressure to do so. That's why there's discussion on techincal stuff. And like it or not, you have to know a certain amount of the techincal stuff to be a pro.

There, on the fanfic site, my impression is most probably just want to put out their ideas. There's a certain level of Don't-Give-A-Crap, and I don't mean that in a dispariging way. It's an attitude that a lot of new writers should adopt. I don't give a crap if this is any good, I'm writing it anyway because I want to.

In addition, there are certain advantages to having a world and characters premade for you to play with vs. having to make everything up from scratch. When you have the foundation laid out for you, there's a lot more time to focus on other parts of the house and make them nice.

The main reason for my offensive against the M.I.W. as a storytelling advice is that I have realized that many people in our community are trying to find something like a perfect formula for writing great stories, like it was all about how to play excellent Chess games, and no... Such a formula simply does not exist, it's the wrong path to follow.

I don't know about everyone else, I generally don't get the impression anyone is looking for the perfect formula. Like you said, it doesn't exist. But there are lots of tools out there that can help. And that's all the OP was about. "Hey look at this new tool I found. Here's how it works. What do you think?"

It's never been about "Hey I found this perfect formula to write award winning novels that will make millions. Everyone should use it, and if you don't, you're a fool." Nobody is saying that. And if they did, they'd be wrong.

Like I said before, this is a tool. Use it. Discard it. Nobody is saying it's right or wrong to do either.

 

[Russ]

What I am saying is that, considering that I have finished many stories myself and these stories have been liked and praised by multiple readers, it means that my views and comments in this thread should not be ignored or either discarded so easily. It's not that I am an unquestionable authority, but I am not a clueless novice either.

You seem to be taking this far too personally and implying certain negative things about the people who disagree with you. That won't take the conversation very far at all. I have thought about what you said and I fundamentally disagree with it, not because I don't accept the "credentials" you put forward, but because I believe you are wrong. And if it got turned into a credentials fight I don't think you would be successful.

If a person wants to learn artistic wood carving, who should this person seek? A person that has experience in the art and has already carved some cool pieces, or somebody else that knows the theory of carving wood but has never produced anything for real?

This is an exaggerated false choice. You want to learn from a person with three characteristics, 1) they can do the thing, 2) they understand how they do the thing, and 3) they can articulate how they do the thing.

People who work from a very spiritual, inspired or unstructured approach don't really make really good teachers. All they can offer is general encouragement. "Follow your heart", "let the story flow through you" etc etc. All inspirational and valuable but not very practical.

People who understand in a concrete way how they do something, can organize and teach it in a more concrete practical way. That doesn't mean the spiritual writer is not a great writer, but they are less likely to be a good teacher of writing.

But someone who says tells people to ignore advice that has been given by very experienced and successful agents, editors and writers based on their "credentials" and their belief that a well accepted tool or technique will cause writer's block? Or that makes negative, and probably false assumptions about many people in our community? I don't think that is either accurate or helpful.

 

[FifthView]

Hi FifthView.

I take that post about Harry Potter to mean that any story that features challenges, problems and difficult conditions for the character is an example of how good M.I.W. actually is.

Yes, it is. It's an excellent example. And we could go through the entire series of Harry Potter books and find many more great examples of how good M.I.W. actually is.

We all do that to our characters in one way or another because challenge is part of why a story gets to be entertaining, but it does not mean that we must make our characters' lives as difficult as possible.

I give challenges and sad conditions to my characters too, but just the necessary amount, just what the story needs. We should note that the first book of Harry Potter does not take the challenges and complications to an extreme, and it's only in later books that Harry grows as a character and more complex things happen to him.

What would have happened if J.K. Rowling had tried to put in the first book everything that came much later in her series?

No one has said that anything beyond the necessary amount is a much better use of M.I.W.

You keep trying to reduce M.I.W. to some absurd extreme to "prove" that it's a bad thing. We all know water is evil and everyone should avoid coming into contact with even one drop of water because, well, people drown in oceans, in floods, and besides which, sharks live in oceans. Right? If anyone dare suggest that water is a very good thing, necessary to our lives, hundreds if not thousands of children and adults will end up dying needlessly.

Patience, we need Patience because it's another very important aspect of being a successful narrator of stories. In the other hand, the M.I.W. advice encourages new writers to go wild, crazy and ambitious from the very start and that's what is dangerous in this advice, tool or whatever that it is.

On the contrary, M.I.W. advice may encourage new writers to find the hidden conflict, or the greater potential, in their stories or for any given scene or chapter. It may help them to develop more tension, more excitement for the reader. You seem to assume that every new story, by every new writer (and old writer), is already automatically at perfect levels of tension, danger, conflict, in every single scene and chapter; and so, "M.I.W." will ruin the story. But this is not the case.

Plus, you are assuming that the advice M.I.W. doesn't come with cautions, various potential strategies of applying it, different potential degrees of "worse." The poor idiot new writers will just kill off their entire cast of main characters in chapter 3 and have nothing to write for chapter 4 because they will go insane making it worse.

Edit: One of the problems with using a successful series like Harry Potter as a good example is that we only see the finished product. Imagine how different the story might have been if any one of those things I mentioned had not been used to M.I.W. So, the Dursley's were childless; or, they had a child and showered their child will all their attention but, like most Muggles, they never knew that the wizarding world existed. Or, there was no Slytherin House; or, no Snape; or, neither. These were all possibilities. But Rowling chose to add them to her story (or, acquiesced to her Storyteller Spirit's demands; whatever.)

 

[Heliotrope]

Case in point, about a month ago I was working on my Blackbeard story, wrote a few chapters... it just wasn't sitting right with me. I sent my first chapter to a crit partner who I really respect (Demesnedenoir from this site, actually... he is AMAZING people), looking for honest critique. He gave it. Fading tension. Didn't hold his attention. He couldn't quite understand why since he liked the concept of the story... but something wasn't right. He suggested I sit on it for a while.

I did, worked on other things. Wrote my Top Scribe short. I came back to it last night and re-read it.

Man was he right! Borings-ville. I didn't know my character enough. I didn't know what motivated her, and what motivated her in the first chapter was too shallow. Not interesting. The frame work was there but it needed some serious deepening.

So last night I spent most of the night brainstorming how to make it worse.

For me, characters don't just jump onto the page fully formed, like Athena from Zeus' head. I don't believe that I'm merely dictating "what really happened." I believe it is my job to get my hands dirty and craft a good, compelling story. If my reader says it is boring, then it is my job to get in there and find out why. I don't sit back and say "Oh, well, that's the way it really happened." No. I go to work. I re-draft. I dig deeper. I make things worse.

That is how I opperate. If other people opperate in different ways, then good on you! I'm happy for you! Writing is harder for me. I need tools.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I don't think anyone's talking about rules set in stone. Make it Worse is a tool we can all use. It's a tool for brainstorming and editing, which is what I said in the original post. I missed some opportunities. I have a completed story that lacks tension (especially in the beginning), and by making things worse for the MC, I can increase the tension, like in the Harry Potter example. BY making Harry's situation a little "worse" than merely being an orphan with a loving adopted family, the situation becomes relatable to a wide readership who may not be orphans themselves, but who can relate to feeling unloved by their parents, or being the "second son" or being somehow overlooked. I mean, just that simple choice to make his situation a step worse, it becomes more important to readers to read his story.

I think the spirit of my original comment was to acknowledge that I wrote a complete tale of things happening, a character I felt excited about, etc. but I was missing some key elements to making that character stand out as unique and gripping to a reader.

BY that very definition, that's EXACTLY what new writers need. I've read tons of stories about people who are doing stuff, but very few characters have been really engaging from the beginning. Too often, writers begin in a place that loses my interest right away. They begin with back story. Or descriptions of a town. Or with a character who is good at too much stuff. Or some kind of preview of the story. I've done all of that. And it sucked. Though they were good stories in concept, the execution and my own personal lacking planning failed to turn a decent story into something people wanted to read. That's it. By making things worse, more immediate, more at stake from the get-go, you have a new opportunity to impress and engage a reader.

continued...