How do you outline?

[Demesnedenoir]

Musing with a tired brain here, forgive me if it goes astray.

I think everything is about finding the sweet spot. Some folks love outlines. Long ago, I pantsed stuff, and it fell apart, then I'd outline, and freeze up, then I'd pants... an ugly cycle. I stopped writing for many years, lived life, and came back to screenwriting, which is heavily structured. Wham! Lights go off in the head. Yeah, a person kind of knows structure, but until you study the crap out of it, it's this weird fuzziness in the back of the head, and it gave structure to a different type of outlining. It wasn't that my stories didn't contain the structure, I just wasn't getting what I was doing before that. Epiphanies are everything, LOL. Like waypoint writing, how you get there doesn't matter, just make sure you get to your destination, heh heh.

And it's flat amazing what the brain can be trained to do with writing and language on the subconscious level. Big structure, you bet. Stop opening sentences with so many adverbial phrases? Yup. Never even think of worthless -ly adverbs let alone type them? Ayup. Don't use "that" when it's not necessary? Sure. Scene structure? You betcha.

But I haven't yet been able to train my brain to not babble on forums. Sad.

 

[Aurora]

I totally agree about finding the sweet spot. Since this thread is about outlining and I don't want anyone mad at me, I'll just say that my pantsing is structured. My stories still follow plot points but it's become second nature as to what those look like now. After some time, the feel for them has become intuitive and the story moves instinctively towards the next big reveal. This is precisely why I encourage my writing buddies to write a lot because practice is the only way this stuff sinks in. My stories would be shit if I didn't follow story structure for the very reason that I'm a pantser. Making things up as I go along works much better when there are rules to follow like hey, I gotta throw in a pinch point next.

 

[ThinkerX]

With me, anymore I do two outlines.

The first is a very rough 'concept outline' telling the story in about a page worth of paragraphs. Included with this are notes on the characters, world, and whatnot. A concept outline can sit in a folder, unread, for a long while.

The second outline is a bit trickier - I put it together just before I start writing. I envision my tales as a series of 'mental movie clips.' The purpose of this outline is to keep these 'clips' in sequence and fill in the blanks. Essentially, its a one paragraph per chapter arrangement, with each scene getting anywhere from 2-3 words to 2-3 sentences. Each chapter is written in a separate file, and I copy/paste the relevant portion of the primary outline to that chapter to serve as a guide. Problem is, more clips occur to me as I write, and some of the outlined material doesn't work, so it gets deleted or moved. Typically, I will redo the outline two or three times over the course of a longer story.

Shorter tales - under about 15,000 words, I either don't outline, or I use the concept outline. These stories are also all one file.

 

[skip.knox]

> Typically, I will redo the outline two or three times over the course of a longer story.

A couple of people have mentioned this in passing, but I think it's crucial. You make an outline prior to writing, but the story is almost certainly going to veer off. If you don't return to the outline and revise it, then it's now useless. I suspect for many novice writers this is the point at which they decide outlining is stupid and not for them. Because it's useless!

You have to revisit and revise your outline just as you do the writing itself. First drafts are not final drafts. I've also begun doing the same with a blurb and a summary: write them at the start, and revise them as the story evolves. Blurb, summary, outline, all are simply differing levels of focus.

 

[Nimue]

One thing I often see new writers struggling with is making words pretty. Books are about stories, characters struggling to solve problems. The words are helpful for ambience, theme, and connection, but they come second place to the story itself. Can't tell you how many writers I've met in recent past who spend years working on words and when push comes to shove they realize they don't know how to write a story.

That’s me, I’m afraid. I’ve been writing since elementary school, off and on. And there’s embedded in my brain the idea that I should be able to just sit down and write a book without any study or training. A little bizarre, upon examination. And that’s what I tried to do five years ago, when I started writing again in earnest. It was my first attempt at NaNoWriMo, too, which just reinforced the idea that all I had to do was sit down and write whatever came to mind.

Part of it is the reader’s illusion that everything in a story is there on the surface. The insidious extremity of that is that everything about a writer’s process is there on the surface: that a writer simply strings word after word of that polished prose together, without struggling or revising or work.

Since then, well, there’s been a lot of despair and a few failed projects. Just smart enough to know there's problems--too dumb to know why, too stubborn to make serious changes. I recently went through a(nother) long period of bitterly hating my writing and the lumpy stories underneath it. But this time around, I’m honestly trying to do my research, find stronger tools and better methods. Of course my writing’s shit right now, but I’m trying to change my mindset from “because I’m a shit writer” to “because I haven't put the work in.”

It’s depressing to still feel like a beginner, that I’ve wasted so much time. If I’ve been scarce around here, that’s why--I really have no experience, no knowledge to contribute. “You know nothing, Nimue” &c. Part of me wishes I hadn’t written as a child/teenager and entrenched myself in these bad habits, that I’d gotten into writing as an adult with a plan and realistic expectations. Without the baggage. Likely as not this makes me sound like an idiot--are you really trying to excuse not cracking open a book on story structure until the Year of Our Lord 2017? But I wanted to express it somehow. All those mental blocks look so small and stupid when you write them down.

Not that the act of resolution means anything in practice. I’m still a million miles from finding the end. But I’m going to try a deep, structure-focused outline for the first time in my life, and maybe that will help. Thank you guys for your thoughts & suggestions. I’m certain it will be useful, in jolting my mindset if nothing else.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Nimue: I am, in principle, in a similar spot. I've been focusing a lot of my attention on weird little technicalities and quirky details. I do pretty words really well, but I struggle with story. One of the foundations of my current WIP is to take a step away from all that and focus on telling short, simple stories.

I want to make it straight, blunt, and to the point. No subtle nuances. No devious twists. I want to write a plain and simple action adventure story - just to learn the basics. Those basics that I shot a brief glance and then ignored when I started writing.

I don't know for sure that we're the same, or even similar, in that respect. But I too still feel like a beginner, and I know for sure I could have used my time better. I'm trying to "start over" but I think and hope that with the knowledge I've gained so far I will have an easier time obtaining the knowledge I need to get to where I want.

 

[Aurora]

That’s me, I’m afraid. I’ve been writing since elementary school, off and on. And there’s embedded in my brain the idea that I should be able to just sit down and write a book without any study or training. A little bizarre, upon examination. And that’s what I tried to do five years ago, when I started writing again in earnest. It was my first attempt at NaNoWriMo, too, which just reinforced the idea that all I had to do was sit down and write whatever came to mind.

Part of it is the reader’s illusion that everything in a story is there on the surface. The insidious extremity of that is that everything about a writer’s process is there on the surface: that a writer simply strings word after word of that polished prose together, without struggling or revising or work.

Since then, well, there’s been a lot of despair and a few failed projects. Just smart enough to know there's problems--too dumb to know why, too stubborn to make serious changes. I recently went through a(nother) long period of bitterly hating my writing and the lumpy stories underneath it. But this time around, I’m honestly trying to do my research, find stronger tools and better methods. Of course my writing’s shit right now, but I’m trying to change my mindset from “because I’m a shit writer” to “because I haven't put the work in.”

It’s depressing to still feel like a beginner, that I’ve wasted so much time. If I’ve been scarce around here, that’s why--I really have no experience, no knowledge to contribute. “You know nothing, Nimue” &c. Part of me wishes I hadn’t written as a child/teenager and entrenched myself in these bad habits, that I’d gotten into writing as an adult with a plan and realistic expectations. Without the baggage. Likely as not this makes me sound like an idiot--are you really trying to excuse not cracking open a book on story structure until the Year of Our Lord 2017? But I wanted to express it somehow. All those mental blocks look so small and stupid when you write them down.

Not that the act of resolution means anything in practice. I’m still a million miles from finding the end. But I’m going to try a deep, structure-focused outline for the first time in my life, and maybe that will help. Thank you guys for your thoughts & suggestions. I’m certain it will be useful, in jolting my mindset if nothing else.

I hear you, sister. Loud and clear! As someone who also has been writing stories since age 9, trust me when I say that I often thought that all I needed to do was start typing. When manuscript after manuscript was rejected by trad publishers, I gave up for many years until Indie publishing came along. THAT'S when I said to myself I will do this no matter what it takes.

What's it taken? Six years of daily writing, studying, struggling, starting-stopping-deleting, rewrites then giving up on rewrites because I hate them, outlining-pantsing-somewhere-in-between, and on it goes. The main thing has been finding support in professional circles. I wanted to be a professional writer so I started reading blogs, books, articles written by professional Indie authors. I got into Facebook groups, online forums, and kept writing, kept practicing. I heard over and over to trust my gut but study story structure, so I did. It took me some time to write with plot points and get the hang of that, then I left the training wheels behind. After all this time, I can write a book that has solid structure but it's taken me a long, long time.

Writing is an artform, a craft that requires tremendous sacrifice. It's all worth it. As of 2 days ago, I self-published my 6th title THIS year. That's because I have a lot of support from my family, which is unusual for many writers, but they let me write. I'm encouraged to write full time even though my earnings are meager. This is what I've wanted to do all of my life so I have worked very hard to get my craft to a level that I believe is publishable (and editors, betas, etc also agree is publishable). But a funny thing has happened. I've learned that books are about story, not pretty fancy words. A lot of authors I know write simple prose and their books sell. Readers just want story. I promise you, that's all they give a shit about.

So as someone who has been there and is on the other side of painfully realizing you don't know story: KEEP AT IT. It will will will pay off one day when you've got a back list of titles to your name. Writing marketable books means learning tropes, GENRE, and what readers expect out of those two things in fantasy. It means learning the difference between epic, sword and sorcery, dark and romantic fantasy, between paranormal and urban and historical fantasy. It means reading books that inspire you and copying what they do so you can learn. It means being willing to not want to stand out with 'unique genre breaking stories because you want to be different. As a newer author, you want to fit in and get readers to trust you.

All of these things will help you become a vastly different artist and author. So to recap:

-learn genre
-learn tropes
-learn plot points
-stop giving so much of a shit about pretty words and focus on character development, plot, and how setting ties into all of that
**Have FUN**

Best of luck to you, Nimue.

 

[pmmg]

I have never used an outline for any story I tried to write. I think I fall into the category of waypoint writer, but I don't strongly consider it. I am strongly considering doing an outline for my current WIP though. I feel I am spending too much effort trying to eek out the next scene and I am wondering if more definition of where it was all going would help. So, it is on my todo list.

Reading the above, I would have just popped up a sentence or two, but I think I may try what Fifth is suggesting.

 

[pmmg]

As of 2 days ago, I self-published my 6th title THIS year. That's because I have a lot of support from my family, which is unusual for many writers, but they let me write.

This I think is among the most important. I don't feel this in my own circumstance, in fact I feel those around me are an impediment to writing. It would be a lot different, I feel, if that were not the case.

 

[ThinkerX]

That’s me, I’m afraid. I’ve been writing since elementary school, off and on. And there’s embedded in my brain the idea that I should be able to just sit down and write a book without any study or training. A little bizarre, upon examination. And that’s what I tried to do five years ago, when I started writing again in earnest. It was my first attempt at NaNoWriMo, too, which just reinforced the idea that all I had to do was sit down and write whatever came to mind.

Part of it is the reader’s illusion that everything in a story is there on the surface. The insidious extremity of that is that everything about a writer’s process is there on the surface: that a writer simply strings word after word of that polished prose together, without struggling or revising or work.

Since then, well, there’s been a lot of despair and a few failed projects. Just smart enough to know there's problems--too dumb to know why, too stubborn to make serious changes. I recently went through a(nother) long period of bitterly hating my writing and the lumpy stories underneath it. But this time around, I’m honestly trying to do my research, find stronger tools and better methods. Of course my writing’s shit right now, but I’m trying to change my mindset from “because I’m a shit writer” to “because I haven't put the work in.”

It’s depressing to still feel like a beginner, that I’ve wasted so much time. If I’ve been scarce around here, that’s why--I really have no experience, no knowledge to contribute. “You know nothing, Nimue” &c. Part of me wishes I hadn’t written as a child/teenager and entrenched myself in these bad habits, that I’d gotten into writing as an adult with a plan and realistic expectations. Without the baggage. Likely as not this makes me sound like an idiot--are you really trying to excuse not cracking open a book on story structure until the Year of Our Lord 2017? But I wanted to express it somehow. All those mental blocks look so small and stupid when you write them down.

Not that the act of resolution means anything in practice. I’m still a million miles from finding the end. But I’m going to try a deep, structure-focused outline for the first time in my life, and maybe that will help. Thank you guys for your thoughts & suggestions. I’m certain it will be useful, in jolting my mindset if nothing else.

You do yourself a disservice. I have been very impressed with the quality of your 'Top Scribe' entries, and believe two or three of them to be of publishable quality.

 

[skip.knox]

@Nimue, I wrote my first story at twenty-two. I finished my first novel at sixty-five. I do often think I mis-spent the years between, but it's only an emotional pang ("only" - hah!). The plain fact is, it took me until about sixty to become a person *able* to write a novel. There was growing up to do, history to learn, and other kinds of writing projects in between that shaped the novelist. Most particularly, doing other kinds of writing all the way to completion, to learn what writing really means.

What you are feeling and going through, they're quite common. I won't say don't despair, because despair comes upon us unbidden. Rather, I'll say when despair comes, know that it will leave again, and the trick is to keep writing even when discouraged.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

This is fascinating to me because I think I’m the opposite as a writer. I could know how every scene turns and ends (and I hope to do just that) and that wouldn't diminish my excitement--what keeps me going is the joy of inhabiting the world and the characters’ heads, making all the detail and emotion and dialogue concrete. For me it’s not about the suspense, but about the experience. I also re-read books a dozens of times, to be sure.

Other reasons why I like leaving the ending of the novel in flux is because it allows it to happen more organically, and I'm going to be thinking about all the possible other endings anyway. I'm writing the last 30% of my WIP now, and as I write, I see other options. I feel the need to address every conceived possibility for a resolution in some way, even if it is just one sentence that rules it out. If I can think of it, some readers will think of it, and I want to limit the reader critiques of "why didn't they just resolve it this way or that way?" I feel that having too narrow a perspective of how the ending should be would give me tunnel vision.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

No, this is really good. I had begun making a list of things to consider for each scene, but some of them are so in-depth that it would be tedious to fill it all out for every scene. I like the idea of breaking it out into “things necessary to know before going into the scene” and “further development/fine-tuning as applicable”--i.e. your outline vs. your worksheets. Good to keep in mind that not everything needs to be bundled into a single organizational document--keep some clarity at a glance, maybe. Was there a resource that inspired these sheets, or are they out of your own experience?

Sorry for the late reply, Nimue. I took the family on a little vacation.

Anyway, my worksheets have been developing for a few years, so the sources stretch beyond attributable memory. However, the most recent contributors would be K.M. Weiland (on structure), Donald Maass (Emotion), & Mel Helitzer (Humor writing & Metaphor).

The first draft is a detailed outline, in many ways. Once I get that down, I can know what works and doesn't, what needs cut or changed...at least, that's the process I've progressed into. Now that I'm on the 2nd draft (which is vastly different from the first), I have a better idea of story and characters. I am now using these worksheets to make the scenes more powerful on several levels: Prose quality, metaphor, symbolism, descriptive choices, emotional impact, etc.

 

[Nimue]

You do yourself a disservice. I have been very impressed with the quality of your 'Top Scribe' entries, and believe two or three of them to be of publishable quality.

That's very kind, Thinker... Let me go further and say that the short-story challenges held by you, T. Allen Smith, Phil Overby, and Legendary Sidekick (I think that's everybody) have been a part of this sorta-epiphany, because writing those stories, finishing them, and getting feedback that said hey, this is readable, this works (on some level), here's what I got out of it, made me consider that maybe it wasn't just that I was a flake with no coherent stories to tell, it was more that...you can hold an entire short story in your head, but you can't do that for a novel. You can't just envision a few scenes, get the gist, and start writing, which was my "method"... and that produced some decent shorts (well. You wouldn't think a 5k short could have pacing problems, but boy do I have something for you) but failed again and again to get anywhere with a novel. The problem might not be in the batter, it might be in the cooking. Eew. Oozy undercooked story batter.

What you are feeling and going through, they're quite common. I won't say don't despair, because despair comes upon us unbidden. Rather, I'll say when despair comes, know that it will leave again, and the trick is to keep writing even when discouraged.

I certainly don't mean to imply that this is in any way unusual...in fact, that's part of it. That all this advice and all these messages have always been out there, but I've taken it the wrong way, been too stubbornly set in my rut to consider it. But, tangent to what you're saying, I haven't been in the right place to hear it. Makes you wish for a shortcut for character development... I suppose reading the advice of better writers and editors is the closest thing to.


>More to the point of what I'm actually meant to be talking about: I read Libby Hawker's Take Off Your Pants and found it a thought-provoking read. I don't know that I'll be using her format verbatim, but I've always had trouble with character arcs and conflict (two thing you may recognize as being Kind of Important for a Story) and her advice was very helpful for that. Plenty of revelations, particularly about the flaws and arc of my much-neglected secondary MC. I've written out loose outlines using her points for the arcs of both MCs for my current project--also did this for Weiland's structure format, which seems a little more applicable to this project and comes with delicious solid math. Revelation from that: yes, the beginning-middle is soggy, and needs some serious snipping. So far, this has been less about altering the major plot points and more about figuring out how to frame them, how to handle the conflicts and motivations, which I'm hoping will point me in far clearer directions during scene-writing.

Next is Coyne, I think, and then probably Maass. I've tried him before but didn't get past the obligatory "selling you on the method" beginning and into the meat of it. As this seems to be universal with writing advice books, I should probably give him another chance.

 

[skip.knox]

I learned a long time ago that advice not only has to be good, it has to be timely. That is, the advice I found useless at twenty was invaluable at age forty. And vice versa. And so on. So it really is worth keeping all those guides and tips and essays, and to return to them now and again. Because one thing I know: you just never know.

 

[ThinkerX]

That's very kind, Thinker... Let me go further and say that the short-story challenges held by you, T. Allen Smith, Phil Overby, and Legendary Sidekick (I think that's everybody) have been a part of this sorta-epiphany, because writing those stories, finishing them, and getting feedback that said hey, this is readable, this works (on some level), here's what I got out of it, made me consider that maybe it wasn't just that I was a flake with no coherent stories to tell, it was more that...you can hold an entire short story in your head, but you can't do that for a novel. You can't just envision a few scenes, get the gist, and start writing, which was my "method"... and that produced some decent shorts (well. You wouldn't think a 5k short could have pacing problems, but boy do I have something for you) but failed again and again to get anywhere with a novel. The problem might not be in the batter, it might be in the cooking. Eew. Oozy undercooked story batter.

I used to write that way...until I came to this site. Started lots of stories, usually wrote myself into a corner. Very few 'finished,' and then only rough drafts. But, after participating in most of the 'Iron Pen' challenge series (among others) I learned, bit by bit.

 

[Phyphor]

I bought a book on the 'Snowflake' method for planning out a story. Followed the instructions meticulously, and spent about two weeks planning the plot, structure, working out characters, etc.

When I finally got to writing it, my main character's age and occupation had changed by the end of the first scene. By the end of the chapter, I didn't even recognise him, and the story had gone off in its own direction.

 

[skip.knox]

I regard pre-writing outlines as just another form of thinking. I have stacks of notebooks with (surprise!) notes in them. Maybe 30% of it is actual writing--dialog, narrative--while the rest is notes, world-building, and me whining to the Universe. I don't regard any of it as wasted motion. Probably the least useful measure of its worth is whether or not the material winds up in the final version of the story. The notes are necessary because I have to think about the story in some form. I cannot simply sit down with my mind as blank as the paper. Well, I can, and often have. I get doodles. Oodles of doodles.

IOW, I *expect* my story will go off the rails because those over there weren't rails after all. The rails were over here.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I regard pre-writing outlines as just another form of thinking. I have stacks of notebooks with (surprise!) notes in them. Maybe 30% of it is actual writing--dialog, narrative--while the rest is notes, world-building, and me whining to the Universe. I don't regard any of it as wasted motion. Probably the least useful measure of its worth is whether or not the material winds up in the final version of the story. The notes are necessary because I have to think about the story in some form. I cannot simply sit down with my mind as blank as the paper. Well, I can, and often have. I get doodles. Oodles of doodles.

IOW, I *expect* my story will go off the rails because those over there weren't rails after all. The rails were over here.

I expect my story to stay on the rails, but that's mainly because I spend a lot of time laying them. I'm on the third phase of the outline now (which will have two passes on the story), and while there are things being changed, they're smaller than they were in the previous phase.

The goal is to get the rails sturdy enough that writing the actual story will be more about putting in pretty words than about the actual story.

That said, there are a lot of notes an dead ends that have been explored and discarded along the way.

 

[Aurora]

So if an outline is getting several passes because it's not perfect enough, when does the actual writing take place? When does the book get finished? Given that stories often take on lives of their own and also need revising, how is it at all effective to write an outline that will change numerous times before the actual book is even started? I'm just trying to understand how that is an efficient way of learning how to write a better book.