How many countries does your world have?

[BiggusBeardus]

Hello!

I am reworking my world. It was a post-apocalyptic world that was mostly uninhabitable except for these two small valleys. It was boring. There was no conflict the way I wrote it.

So I started filling my world map with countries and empires and such, but I noticed the countries I made so far are too big. There are 195 countries in our real world. I've labeled a quarter of my map and only have 11 countries so far. I feel like I need to make a lot of small countries. I'm not trying to make 195, but I am trying to create a semblance of realism, at least a little. As an example of being too big, one of my countries is 1,920,000 square miles (3,089,940 km). That is larger than 96% of the countries in our modern world. My world WAS what I call "magic punk", but now that I'm reworking everything, I'm not sure how advanced it is. It's probably not classic mediaeval fantasy, but "fantasy" in general. Maybe still magic punk.

What determines the size of a country in your world?

How many countries do you have in your world?

 

[pmmg]

I think I am at thirteen or so that have played some large or small role in the story. Much of the lands are uncivilized. So...another three or four cultures, mostly of a tribal nature. Its grows as needed.

I've not got a hard number of mileage. It does cover the area from the arctic circle to the equator, and not all the land masses are drawn out. My initial thought was a Pangea, with one large land mass, but as it took shape, some drift has occurred. Still mostly one large landmass though.

There is plenty of conflict. Heck...you cant swing a dead blue orc in his bottle without hitting something that wants to kill you. Its not a peaceful place to be.

 

[Aldarion]

Hello!

I am reworking my world. It was a post-apocalyptic world that was mostly uninhabitable except for these two small valleys. It was boring. There was no conflict the way I wrote it.

So I started filling my world map with countries and empires and such, but I noticed the countries I made so far are too big. There are 195 countries in our real world. I've labeled a quarter of my map and only have 11 countries so far. I feel like I need to make a lot of small countries. I'm not trying to make 195, but I am trying to create a semblance of realism, at least a little. As an example of being too big, one of my countries is 1,920,000 square miles (3,089,940 km). That is larger than 96% of the countries in our modern world. My world WAS what I call "magic punk", but now that I'm reworking everything, I'm not sure how advanced it is. It's probably not classic mediaeval fantasy, but "fantasy" in general. Maybe still magic punk.

What determines the size of a country in your world?

How many countries do you have in your world?

Depends on when?

1500 PUC = 2
1000 PUC = 5
500 PUC = 5
0 AUC = 9
100 AUC = 14
200 AUC = 11
300 AUC = 13
400 AUC = 13
500 AUC = 23
600 AUC = 22
700 AUC = 13
800 AUC = 10
900 AUC = 9
1000 AUC = 9
1100 AUC = 8
1200 AUC = 13
1300 AUC = 13
1400 AUC = 17
1500 AUC = 19
1600 AUC = 15
1700 AUC = 28
1800 AUC = 26
1900 AUC = 32
2000 AUC = 21
2100 AUC = 27
2200 AUC = 29
2214 AUC = 26

And then you have hundreds of tribes, minor principalities and so on.

But you can notice two things. First, number of countries varies massively over time. Second, number of major countries is not that big.

Thing is that with the modern world, you have a massive number of national and pseudo-national countries, and they cover basically entire landmass.

In a premodern world, you generally have three setups:
1) Very few massive empires
2) Large number of smaller culturally homogenous kingdoms
3) Massive number of small territorial principalities

Most of the time however, world was some combination of these three. But between the fact that most of the territorial principalities would be too small to note on anything but local maps (think Greek or Etruscan city-states), frequent presence of massive empires, and the fact that much of the world was not yet in the "state" level of organizing things... there wouldn't be that many countries, especially early on. There would, however, be a lot of "empty" space that is still in the tribal level of organization.

Also, three million square kilometers is NOT too big for a premodern empire (though it may be for a post-apocalyptic one). Just look at sizes at link below - you have over 50 (51 to be exact) empires that are above 3 million square kilometers. Granted, most of them didn't exist at the same time... but exist they did:

List of largest empires - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ThinkerX]

My worlds have everything from large empires to small city-states.

The civilized nations tend to be on the large side, or failing that, 'protected' somehow. Why?

That has to do with the 'Hundred Nations,' the barbarians and nomadic peoples of 'The Unknown Southern Plains' - tribes that band together every few decades and attack some unfortunate neighbor. About once per century, a bunch of these tribes will unite in a massive horde that launches bloody campaigns of conquest. In the past, these hordes have both destroyed and founded nations.

Civilized nations that survive these onslaughts do so by one of three means - making themselves useful to the tribes.

- supplying them with manufactured goods and whatnot,

- having damn good defenses, usually bolstered by geography (protected by a mountain range or on an island or some such),

- or going big by joining up with neighboring civilized fiefs.

More generally, there are a couple of other points to take into account.

First, the vast majority of fantasy tales are local, not global. All too often, the maps depict fairly small areas compared to the world as a whole - and usually, that is all that is needed. This also directly corresponds to real-world geographical awareness through the ages - until five hundred years ago, North and South America were utterly unknown to the folks of Europe and Asia, as was most of Africa. Hence, unless the characters are bold explorers or meet with misfortune, most of the world map is irrelevant - which brings me to the second point...

How much of the world needs to be known to tell the story?

 

[BiggusBeardus]

Depends on when?

1500 PUC = 2
1000 PUC = 5
500 PUC = 5
0 AUC = 9
100 AUC = 14
200 AUC = 11
300 AUC = 13
400 AUC = 13
500 AUC = 23
600 AUC = 22
700 AUC = 13
800 AUC = 10
900 AUC = 9
1000 AUC = 9
1100 AUC = 8
1200 AUC = 13
1300 AUC = 13
1400 AUC = 17
1500 AUC = 19
1600 AUC = 15
1700 AUC = 28
1800 AUC = 26
1900 AUC = 32
2000 AUC = 21
2100 AUC = 27
2200 AUC = 29
2214 AUC = 26

And then you have hundreds of tribes, minor principalities and so on.

But you can notice two things. First, number of countries varies massively over time. Second, number of major countries is not that big.

Thing is that with the modern world, you have a massive number of national and pseudo-national countries, and they cover basically entire landmass.

In a premodern world, you generally have three setups:
1) Very few massive empires
2) Large number of smaller culturally homogenous kingdoms
3) Massive number of small territorial principalities

Most of the time however, world was some combination of these three. But between the fact that most of the territorial principalities would be too small to note on anything but local maps (think Greek or Etruscan city-states), frequent presence of massive empires, and the fact that much of the world was not yet in the "state" level of organizing things... there wouldn't be that many countries, especially early on. There would, however, be a lot of "empty" space that is still in the tribal level of organization.

Also, three million square kilometers is NOT too big for a premodern empire (though it may be for a post-apocalyptic one). Just look at sizes at link below - you have over 50 (51 to be exact) empires that are above 3 million square kilometers. Granted, most of them didn't exist at the same time... but exist they did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires[/UR

Wow! You have a lot of detail for your timeline and countries! What does AUC stand for?

Also, that example I gave was not an empire. That is the current size of just one random country I picked for this post. It is coincidentally part of an empire, but the whole empire is roughly 12, 320, 000 square miles (19, 827,118 square km). In the link you shared, the Roman empire was only 1, 930,000 sq mi (5,000,000 sq km) in 117 C.E. And it is fair to say, for the time period, the Roman empire was friggin huge! I know China has some right there with it.

I think I need to shrink some stuff down a bit. There's no reason for them to be so big. I was just placing names on a map and I noticed I was using a big font, so I added a scale grid to my map and saw how big I was making these places.

Thanks for your response!

 

[BiggusBeardus]

My worlds have everything from large empires to small city-states.

The civilized nations tend to be on the large side, or failing that, 'protected' somehow. Why?

That has to do with the 'Hundred Nations,' the barbarians and nomadic peoples of 'The Unknown Southern Plains' - tribes that band together every few decades and attack some unfortunate neighbor. About once per century, a bunch of these tribes will unite in a massive horde that launches bloody campaigns of conquest. In the past, these hordes have both destroyed and founded nations.

Civilized nations that survive these onslaughts do so by one of three means - making themselves useful to the tribes.

- supplying them with manufactured goods and whatnot,

- having damn good defenses, usually bolstered by geography (protected by a mountain range or on an island or some such),

- or going big by joining up with neighboring civilized fiefs.

More generally, there are a couple of other points to take into account.

First, the vast majority of fantasy tales are local, not global. All too often, the maps depict fairly small areas compared to the world as a whole - and usually, that is all that is needed. This also directly corresponds to real-world geographical awareness through the ages - until five hundred years ago, North and South America were utterly unknown to the folks of Europe and Asia, as was most of Africa. Hence, unless the characters are bold explorers or meet with misfortune, most of the world map is irrelevant - which brings me to the second point...

How much of the world needs to be known to tell the story?

Thanks for the details about your world. I like the bit about the barbarian hordes.

As for my story.... well, it took a crap. I have been working on "one" story for the past 4 years on and off. I write a bunch of stuff and a few weeks later I hate all of it and start over. During these periods of starting over, I work on the setting. It has change a lot too. I REALLY liked this one map I made that was a small area with decent details and the story stayed in that area. No global details needed whatsoever. But it wasn't doing it for me. I was trying to write a story that stuck to one city, but I didn't like the plots I came up with and each time the conflict, both internal and external, were weak, if not non-existent.

So I'm just working on my world, keeping in mind bits and pieces of my story that I want to keep, and looking for ways to create conflict in my setting that may lead to conflict in my story.

Then there's the fact that:

 

[Aldarion]

Same here! But ironically, my worldbuilding actually led me to get outlines of the plot without even trying!

Also, slow-brain moment here, but I just realized - nice to meet another Monty Python fan!

 

[BiggusBeardus]

I think I am at thirteen or so that have played some large or small role in the story. Much of the lands are uncivilized. So...another three or four cultures, mostly of a tribal nature. Its grows as needed.

I've not got a hard number of mileage. It does cover the area from the arctic circle to the equator, and not all the land masses are drawn out. My initial thought was a Pangea, with one large land mass, but as it took shape, some drift has occurred. Still mostly one large landmass though.

There is plenty of conflict. Heck...you cant swing a dead blue orc in his bottle without hitting something that wants to kill you. Its not a peaceful place to be.

That's pretty big, if your world is earth-sized. And I think lots of conflict is better than no conflict. Conflict is what drives a story. I don't need it all to be external, but I was struggling with both external and internal... lol I was having an internal conflict about conflict.

I have a Pangea-like continent too. It was bigger, but there was a big catastrophe that destroyed 3/4 of the planet. That's why it WAS post-apocalyptic. But I think I'm gonna go with a "world reset" concept and the story takes place many years later after the world has recovered some.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

Same here! But ironically, my worldbuilding actually led me to get outlines of the plot without even trying!

Also, slow-brain moment here, but I just realized - nice to meet another Monty Python fan!

I played Dungeons & Dragons for 30+ years and I had a theory that you can't get through a session without a Monty Python reference (usually Holy Grail). LOL

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I've got one area called the Hundred Kingdoms... 100 hundred little nations. Other areas just as big with 5 kingdoms, and another with 20 or so city-states, and that's just one continent.

But! This is just one of those "it depends" questions and answer sessions.

 

[BiggusBeardus]

I've got one area called the Hundred Kingdoms... 100 hundred little nations. Other areas just as big with 5 kingdoms, and another with 20 or so city-states, and that's just one continent.

But! This is just one of those "it depends" questions and answer sessions.

I agree, it depends.

I'm just interested in what other people are doing. It helps me think through my own stuff.

Thanks for responding!

 

[Aldarion]

Wow! You have a lot of detail for your timeline and countries! What does AUC stand for?

Also, that example I gave was not an empire. That is the current size of just one random country I picked for this post. It is coincidentally part of an empire, but the whole empire is roughly 12, 320, 000 square miles (19, 827,118 square km). In the link you shared, the Roman empire was only 1, 930,000 sq mi (5,000,000 sq km) in 117 C.E. And it is fair to say, for the time period, the Roman empire was friggin huge! I know China has some right there with it.

I think I need to shrink some stuff down a bit. There's no reason for them to be so big. I was just placing names on a map and I noticed I was using a big font, so I added a scale grid to my map and saw how big I was making these places.

Thanks for your response!

AUC is "Ab Urbe Condita" - my civilization is basically fantasy Rome, so they are using Roman measurements and stuff.

Mongol Empire was 24 million square kilometers, but it didn't exactly last long. I think that an empire of such size would, without modern administration, rather quickly fall apart into more manageable parts.

 

[Rexenm]

I have Vissany, Illume, Theralia, and Felicia. I think Felicia has been used before. Also, The Ice Kingdom. And, no white people - yet. It is also the situation that they pass from one continent to another, through flight, because of the rocky crags.

 

[pmmg]

I would say...I started with nothing (of course) and quickly had four nations to get things started. I could have started with fewer or none though. Such as it goes.


The conflict however did not come because i had kingdoms. I had the conflict before i started. I did not even know it would span four kingdoms at first. But i am politically inclined so it follows.

 

[ThinkerX]

Thanks for the details about your world. I like the bit about the barbarian hordes.

As for my story.... well, it took a crap. I have been working on "one" story for the past 4 years on and off. I write a bunch of stuff and a few weeks later I hate all of it and start over. During these periods of starting over, I work on the setting. It has change a lot too. I REALLY liked this one map I made that was a small area with decent details and the story stayed in that area. No global details needed whatsoever. But it wasn't doing it for me. I was trying to write a story that stuck to one city, but I didn't like the plots I came up with and each time the conflict, both internal and external, were weak, if not non-existent.

So I'm just working on my world, keeping in mind bits and pieces of my story that I want to keep, and looking for ways to create conflict in my setting that may lead to conflict in my story.

Then there's the fact that:

I did way, way too much world-building in my younger days, most of it based on AD&D. I also finished very few stories during that period. Then for a long time, I didn't write much at all.

Then in an especially frustrating period of my life about fourteen years ago, I started on what eventually became 'Labyrinth: Journal.' The original intent was a tale of ten or fifteen thousand words. I mostly used the world-building from the old days for the background. The first draft topped forty thousand. After bouncing around a bit, I came here.

I spent years participating in short story challenges on this site, with most of those stories having an upper limit of 5000 words. Most of those stories explored the world. Historical events from somebody who was there. Strange lands. Short stories are far, far quicker, and easier to write than novels. It teaches discipline and setting up the structure of a story.

I refined the various worlds a bit, using the old stuff as a template, but didn't put a huge amount of effort into it. One thing that became clear from the outset was you can do all the world-building you want, but there are always gaps when it comes to the stories. Reviewers say my novels are heavy on world-building - but there are piles of things I made up on the fly, as it were.

It used to be I'd take an interesting idea or character and just start writing. More often than not, I'd write myself into a corner.

Anymore, being older, I do not begin a story without knowing the beginning, middle, and end. I can keep the setup in my head for shorter stories - under 15,000 words or so. For longer ones, I'll put together an outline, two- or three-page's tops, along with lists of characters and names. Then, once I start writing, I don't stop. Working on that tale becomes part of the daily routine. Yes, I do reach points where it seems overwhelming, or the words are utter garbage. I just keep on writing.

 

[Finchbearer]

Um, two. Well I’ve only built and concentrated on two countries, one inspired by the approximate size and shape of Russia, inspired by European countries, and another smaller country to the south that I’ve been inspired by mostly Bosnian culture and mythology. The rest of the world in theory has many other countries because I figured it would be way too much if I tried to write a story encompassing all the countries that covered a globe like ours. Too many cultures, too many possibilities etc.

Maybe I could have it that those two countries cover the entire globe, but they’d be absolutely massive and I’ve set my story in a time where horseback (and magical teleportation) are the only long distance modes of transport. Maybe I be doing it wrong.

 

[Aldarion]

Um, two. Well I’ve only built and concentrated on two countries, one inspired by the approximate size and shape of Russia, inspired by European countries, and another smaller country to the south that I’ve been inspired by mostly Bosnian culture and mythology. The rest of the world in theory has many other countries because I figured it would be way too much if I tried to write a story encompassing all the countries that covered a globe like ours. Too many cultures, too many possibilities etc.

Maybe I could have it that those two countries cover the entire globe, but they’d be absolutely massive and I’ve set my story in a time where horseback (and magical teleportation) are the only long distance modes of transport. Maybe I be doing it wrong.

You are not. Most of countries in my world are nothing but names, and I included them simply to get my world feel more lived in - and so that characters can drop occasional references to news from afar. That's it.

 

[Rexenm]

Do you have an opinion about token topography? There must be a map created in advance, or edited last.

 

[Mad Swede]

Hello!

I am reworking my world. It was a post-apocalyptic world that was mostly uninhabitable except for these two small valleys. It was boring. There was no conflict the way I wrote it.

So I started filling my world map with countries and empires and such, but I noticed the countries I made so far are too big. There are 195 countries in our real world. I've labeled a quarter of my map and only have 11 countries so far. I feel like I need to make a lot of small countries. I'm not trying to make 195, but I am trying to create a semblance of realism, at least a little. As an example of being too big, one of my countries is 1,920,000 square miles (3,089,940 km). That is larger than 96% of the countries in our modern world. My world WAS what I call "magic punk", but now that I'm reworking everything, I'm not sure how advanced it is. It's probably not classic mediaeval fantasy, but "fantasy" in general. Maybe still magic punk.

What determines the size of a country in your world?

Local geography, just as it does in the real world. Things like rivers, mountain ranges etc tend to form natural boundaries. The ability to grow food and build homes tends to determine how big the population can be and hence what if any need there is to move into new areas. Development of technology and the ability to organise tends to determine how big an area someone can control.

So you need to think about your geography and it does help if you sketch your setting in a simple map, both in terms of working out what there is in the area and (more importantly) how long it takes to move around.

How many countries do you have in your world?

Well, the characters in the stories know of three or four. There may be other countries...

 

[Orc Knight]

Enough, I guess? At least ten to thirteen, though only about five or six play really important roles in the story.