How would a dragon regulate body temperature without fire breath?

[rktho]

I'm drafting a story with a cast of dragons. The protagonist has a disability preventing her from breathing fire. Her particular species is just about large enough to carry an adult sheep in their talons. This world is fairly technologically advanced (they haven't figured out how to harness electricity yet, but they're able to construct decently complex coalpunk machinery. My protagonist, however, comes from a rural background, and doesn't have access to all the technology one might find in an industrialized population center. My main concern, really, would be how she travels anywhere without catching hypothermia, especially if she's traveling through a mountainous area. Magic exists in this setting, but it's believed to have died out some time ago. (I'm still working out the role of magic in this story, but my current idea is that the protagonist travels with her aunt recovering lost magical relics, with the general dragon population not being aware that such things exist in the present.)

 

[Finchbearer]

That would suggest that your dragons thermoregulate through fire-breath. If you had it where there was a special organ that could help them regulate body temperature then you could get around the issue, but otherwise if they are sort of like cold-blooded reptiles, then they she wouldn’t be able to survive a cold climate. I’m guessing it probably wouldn’t do to have her wear a knitted jumper…

Maybe she can grow feathers to counter the lack of fire-breath? If your dragons are more bird like. Or maybe she can harness the cold due to the lack of fire-breath, a bit like when a blind person has a better sense of hearing because they have to over-compensate.

 

[rktho]

That would suggest that your dragons thermoregulate through fire-breath. If you had it where there was a special organ that could help them regulate body temperature then you could get around the issue, but otherwise if they are sort of like cold-blooded reptiles, then they she wouldn’t be able to survive a cold climate. I’m guessing it probably wouldn’t do to have her wear a knitted jumper…

Maybe she can grow feathers to counter the lack of fire-breath? If your dragons are more bird like. Or maybe she can harness the cold due to the lack of fire-breath, a bit like when a blind person has a better sense of hearing because they have to over-compensate.

I think dragons thermoregulating through fire breath would pose an interesting challenge for one who can’t produce fire. I could make them warm-blooded to sidestep the issue, but I think it makes for more engaging worldbuilding if I try and work with the limitations of cold blood. I actually did consider a jumper, but apparently that doesn’t work for cold blood— clothes are only as warm as the body heat they insulate, meaning your blood has to be warm for the jumper to be warm. I don’t imagine my protagonist’s species of dragon as having feathers but I’ll keep it in my back pocket for now. I could also change the way her disability works, where her fire organ works but she can’t expel flames somehow. I have no idea how that would work, though; that might present its own worldbuilding issues. Could you elaborate on the “harnessing the cold” idea? I’m not entirely sure what you’re proposing with it.

 

[Finchbearer]

In the attempt of making a joke I don’t think I really considered that jumpers on a cold-blooded creatures do not make them any warmer!

Harnessing the cold - I think I was perhaps thinking of an elemental type of change, so if she’s a fire breathing dragon species, then maybe with her lack of actual fire-breathing elemental power, she taps into another element, such as water / ice / snow. It could make for an interesting angle, although if you’re going for a subtext on disability, then it has potential to defeat the point.

Perhaps harnessing the cold is something she manages after many failures, or struggling with her inability to produce fire.

 

[pmmg]

By living near lava.

Sorry, didnt see the larger thread.

a fair supposition that a dragons fire keeps them warm, but the mistake is that there is not rampaging fire within, rather an ignitable bile waiting to be belched out. A dragons blood is fire and hot, but the breath weapon is separate from that.

Just as one can lose a larynx and not grow cold a dragon can lose such an ability and maintain.

 

[Finchbearer]

By living near lava.

Sorry, didnt see the larger thread.

a fair supposition that a dragons fire keeps them warm, but the mistake is that there is not rampaging fire within, rather an ignitable bile waiting to be belched out. A dragons blood is fire and hot, but the breath weapon is separate from that.

Just as one can lose a larynx and not grow cold a dragon can lose such an ability and maintain.

Wait, which dragon anatomy school did you go to?

 

[pmmg]

I think it was as called female dragon studies.

 

[rktho]

In the attempt of making a joke I don’t think I really considered that jumpers on a cold-blooded creatures do not make them any warmer!

Harnessing the cold - I think I was perhaps thinking of an elemental type of change, so if she’s a fire breathing dragon species, then maybe with her lack of actual fire-breathing elemental power, she taps into another element, such as water / ice / snow. It could make for an interesting angle, although if you’re going for a subtext on disability, then it has potential to defeat the point.

Perhaps harnessing the cold is something she manages after many failures, or struggling with her inability to produce fire.

I’ve decided to avoid elemental themes in this work as I find it cliché. I also don’t think I’ve breath/abilities would make sense unless my dragons were magic. As for defeating the point of the disability subtext— you’re correct on that, but I don’t think it’s subtext if it’s a literal disability, even if it’s one humans don’t necessarily have to deal with. (The mentor character does deal with some familiar disabilities— poor eyesight, chronic pain— which she deals with by wearing goggles, using forelimb crutches, and smoking/chewing haynip (fantasy weed, basically.)

 

[rktho]

By living near lava.

Sorry, didnt see the larger thread.

a fair supposition that a dragons fire keeps them warm, but the mistake is that there is not rampaging fire within, rather an ignitable bile waiting to be belched out. A dragons blood is fire and hot, but the breath weapon is separate from that.

Just as one can lose a larynx and not grow cold a dragon can lose such an ability and maintain.

My character does move to a hot spring, but a lot of the story is going to involve traveling.

 

[Vaporo]

Cold vs warm-blooded is not necessarily a binary, it's a spectrum. Even the warmest of warm-blooded animals still rely on environmental heat to some degree. An especially large cold-blooded animal (like a dragon) will produce some body heat. Perhaps without her own fire, your protagonist falls somewhere in that middle spectrum. Not quite warm-blooded, not quite fully cold either. A heavy jacket would have some effect in that case. Even if she is completely cold-blooded, a jacket/jumper would still help her conserve what heat she has. A jacket filled with bottles of warm water pressed against her skin would last at least an hour or two, I think.

Maybe she manages her body temperature by keeping moving? i.e. When traveling in the cold she moves at her equivalent of a fast jog to keep her muscles generating heat.

Maybe she just starts campfires in a more traditional way. Periodically stop, chop/gnaw down a tree, and surround herself on all sides with firewood which she ignites with flint and steel. Then, wait to warm up, (also a good opportunity to reheat her water bottles), put on her jacket, and keep moving.

 

[rktho]

Cold vs warm-blooded is not necessarily a binary, it's a spectrum. Even the warmest of warm-blooded animals still rely on environmental heat to some degree. An especially large cold-blooded animal (like a dragon) will produce some body heat. Perhaps without her own fire, your protagonist falls somewhere in that middle spectrum. Not quite warm-blooded, not quite fully cold either. A heavy jacket would have some effect in that case. Even if she is completely cold-blooded, a jacket/jumper would still help her conserve what heat she has. A jacket filled with bottles of warm water pressed against her skin would last at least an hour or two, I think.

Maybe she manages her body temperature by keeping moving? i.e. When traveling in the cold she moves at her equivalent of a fast jog to keep her muscles generating heat.

Maybe she just starts campfires in a more traditional way. Periodically stop, chop/gnaw down a tree, and surround herself on all sides with firewood which she ignites with flint and steel. Then, wait to warm up, (also a good opportunity to reheat her water bottles), put on her jacket, and keep moving.

I think that’s the best idea so far! I think having to move a lot would give her a lot of personality. Maybe she gets cranky when she goes a long time without moving, because she starts losing body heat. Sort of like ADHD restlessness but with a different underlying cause (although speaking from experience, ADHD has both mental and physical symptoms, so it might not be that far off.)

 

[pmmg]

That is typically the opposite of cause and effect in reptiles. When faced with cold, Reptiles drop activity and shut down.

Any movement would cause friction and cause heat, including just the beating of a heart, but I'd think it would not be enough to give a reptile its own heat.

If they fly up above the clouds and open their wings, they might maximize the suns sunning effect. Still, I would not assert dragon have heat because of the ability to have fire breath.

 

[rktho]

That is typically the opposite of cause and effect in reptiles. When faced with cold, Reptiles drop activity and shut down.

Any movement would cause friction and cause heat, including just the beating of a heart, but I'd think it would not be enough to give a reptile its own heat.

If they fly up above the clouds and open their wings, they might maximize the suns sunning effect. Still, I would not assert dragon have heat because of the ability to have fire breath.

[taking notes]

 

[pmmg]

Another thought....

Suppose the dragons scales were just some type of organic super material that trapped heat inside. So, if the dragon was warmed, it would take a long time for the heat to dissipate. Thus, it could live in a hot spring, and journey, but have to return to recharge at times.

 

[JBCrowson]

although if you’re going for a subtext on disability, then it has potential to defeat the point.

Not entirely - one of the current themes in disability thinking is to "see the ability" - ie to recognise that a person (or dragon) with a disability in one area will always have other abilities. It is I guess, in a loose way, related to the glass is half full rather than half empty concept.

 

[JBCrowson]

Another thought....

Suppose the dragons scales were just some type of organic super material that trapped heat inside. So, if the dragon was warmed, it would take a long time for the heat to dissipate. Thus, it could live in a hot spring, and journey, but have to return to recharge at times.

like space shuttle tiles inside out.

 

[Vaporo]

That is typically the opposite of cause and effect in reptiles. When faced with cold, Reptiles drop activity and shut down.

Any movement would cause friction and cause heat, including just the beating of a heart, but I'd think it would not be enough to give a reptile its own heat.

If they fly up above the clouds and open their wings, they might maximize the suns sunning effect. Still, I would not assert dragon have heat because of the ability to have fire breath.

That may be so, but large-bodied animals will lose heat more slowly, so what little heat she does generate will go a lot further than in most reptiles. Perhaps moving to stay warm isn't an instinctive behavior for dragons? Maybe her instinct actually is to slow down and conserve energy like other reptiles, and she's just learned to fight it and keep moving in order to stay alert?

Large wings could have the opposite effect as well: If the dragon flies through cold air it could tip the heat balance in the opposite direction, and she starts losing heat through her wings. In fact, for a species that I'd imagine normally produces a huge excess of heat, that's what I'd imaging their typical function would be.

There are ways to sort of have your cake and eat it too, though. If the blood vessels in the wings naturally dilate when it's warm and contract to reduce blood flow when it's cold, that would improve their heat dynamics by quite a bit.

Also, if the the wing skin is has a thick and translucent outer layer over an opaque inner layer, it could insulate the blood vessels in the cold while still allowing sunlight to warm her body as much as possible. If the air got cold enough she would still ultimately be losing heat, but it would help. The insulating layer would probably also be heavy and inhibit flight, so a species that normally has no trouble keeping itself warm would likely lose unneeded insulation over time.

Maybe draconic fire is a relatively recent biological adaptation? Enough that the ancestral biological machinery and instincts for keeping warm are still around and (partially) reactivate in your protagonist.

EDIT:
See elephant ears for a comparable biological heat exchanger:

 

[rktho]

Not entirely - one of the current themes in disability thinking is to "see the ability" - ie to recognise that a person (or dragon) with a disability in one area will always have other abilities. It is I guess, in a loose way, related to the glass is half full rather than half empty concept.

It's a very complicated concept because disabled people are dehumanized in a myriad of mutually exclusive ways. Many disabled people feel that they don't want people to focus on what they can do, because, well, we don't make a big deal when abled people do those same things. They feel that by emphasizing their abilities over their disability, their challenges are being ignored, trivialized or otherwise invalidated, preventing them from receiving the kind of support they actually need. It's a fine line to walk between not writing someone off because of their disability, and respecting the fact that they do in fact have that disability. Using my autism as an example, people might assume I'm absolutely useless in social situations. But if they see that I'm not, in fact, completely out of my depth in any given social situation, they might assume that I don't struggle at all, or more insultingly, assume that because I have been able to overcome certain challenges, I have become "less autistic" as a result. And actually, I think I want to touch on these very points in my story. To make a long story short, my characters' disabilities will never be superpowers. Disabled people may possess exceptional talents as a result of their life experiences, but that's how it works for everyone— not to mention, a person's worth should not be determined by the degree to which they are exceptional or excellent.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Maybe your dragon could swallow red-hot stones and store them in the organ that normally houses her dragon fire. Stones can retain a lot of heat and have been used for similar purposes (though not by swallowing them). In bushcraft, it's one of the ways to stay warm at night. Build your fire in such a way that it heats a larger stone surface, which will slowly release this heat over time. The heat wouldn't be an issue for a dragon, since the organ can hold fire, as does the dragon's throat.

Couple this with generating some heat as you keep moving, and you can go a decent way.

As for dragon wings and dissipating heat, I would expect a dragon's wings to either be very well insulated, or to not suffer from the cold and not pass that cold on to the dragon's body. A dragon's wings would be very large to keep them airborn. By comparisson, a Quetzalcoatlus (which I guess is about similar in size) had a wingspan of somewhere between 10m and 20m. That's a lot of surface area to lose heat from, even if you have an internal furnace.

 

[Finchbearer]

Not entirely - one of the current themes in disability thinking is to "see the ability" - ie to recognise that a person (or dragon) with a disability in one area will always have other abilities. It is I guess, in a loose way, related to the glass is half full rather than half empty concept.

Certainly. Although just from personal experience it can easily become toxic, to the point where the disability part is kind of ignored, which again, defeats the point. It’s also really personal, as in you’re probably going to offend just as many people as you’ll reach by working with that sort of subject. Everyone has a different perspective on it. You could have fun with a disabled dragon character though, maybe the hot water filled knitted jumper idea would be fun to read, that is if it were more a fantasy-comedy, with some serious subtext in there.