How would a knight in full armour climb down from the top of a mountain?

[Malik]

Armor was not a thing; it was a process. People wore as much as they could afford or as much as they thought they needed.

Fantasy writing is research. There are entire books written on armor. There's also a ton of information on the Internet but if you get your information from LARP or RPG enthusiasts, you're going to be wrong. A lot.

For starters, though, look up Poul Anderson's essay "On Thud & Blunder."

Also, I have a blog post on armor. I should probably do another one, though.

Armor is heavy. It sucks. But it works. That's why soldiers wear it, even today. If I knew my armor wouldn't work, I'd leave it in my tent. This, I believe, has not changed throughout history. I believe that Vendel-age warriors shucked off their mail with a groan at the end of the day and wanted to hurl it across the room the same way that we do with our military body armor today.

A shirt of iron mail weighed 20-30 lbs. Mail was worn over quilted padding and sometimes over a vest or jerkin of thick leather.

The kind of armor that we see in the video I posted is a man-at-arms harness, what people call "full plate" armor. It was extremely expensive and was the mark of exceptional wealth, on par with having a private jet today.

That suit in the video is from the 1300's. In the 1400's and 1500's field harnesses got even more elaborate.

Each suit was custom-made and would only fit one person. It weighed anywhere from 40 to 60 lbs, including the mail that went under it. That weight was very well distributed, as you can see. And weight is not a concern.

Anybody who fights for a living will want as much protection as he can get; whatever he can afford and whatever he can transport to the battle site, whether he wears it, packs it on a second horse, or has a wizard teleport it along with a team of valets who will work on him like a pit crew once he gets there. He will want it as light and comfortable as possible and he won't wear any more than he thinks he has to, but he will wear as much as he possibly can get away with. He might -- might -- forgo a degree of protection for convenience, but as a professional soldier myself I don't know anyone who would do this if he knew that enemy contact was certain or even likely.

My first thought, if I receive a mission with expected enemy contact, isn't "Boy, my armor's gonna slow me down." My first thought -- and every soldier's first thought -- is "Now, where did I put that extra armor?" Followed by "I need to attach every single plate, flap, and auxiliary piece on my armor, and I hope I get to carry the SAW. I wonder how many grenades I can fit in this pouch?" I don't care if it adds 40 lbs. to my load-out; if there are gonna be badguys, I want as much armor as I can get and whatever weapons come closest to being "excessively injurious or having indiscriminate effects" according to the laws of war without technically going over the line. I'm convinced that mindset has not changed throughout human history.

Even if the armor is heavy, he'll use it if he can, along with a great big honker of a shield and a massive helmet and the biggest weapons that he can wield effectively, if he has any instinct for self-preservation.

Last point: Mark Twain was a satirist. He wrote A Connecticut Yankee making fun of the great Arthurian legends. It wasn't supposed to be historically accurate.

 

[SeverinR]

Another consideration is temperature. Is it cold up on this mountain? If so, wearing metal armor would make the person wearing it freeze that much quicker.

All that metal holds in heat in warm times, but the metal displaces heat extremely fast in winter. Basically there is a small window when the armor is comfortable.

Hi CupofJoe, I'm not sure whether he would be wearing full plate armour. He's on a quest and his opponent, who is arriving by sea (ha ha) is dressed in a doublet and hose and one of those pointy shoes that curl up at the toe.(He's lost the other one). This suggests to me that this is a medieval type of fantasy. So I need to find out what type of armour was available. I was once shown chain mail and it was really heavy. It just occurred to me, today, that the knight might have some difficulty climbing down the mountain.
I also have seen armour in the Tower of London and remember being told that knights couldn't dress themselves and that if they fell over they were unable to get up again unaided. Battles must have been a lot of fun!

I think a knight could get into armor without assistance but would take a long time and probably couldn't tighten things down properly. Its hard to feel the buckle that another person can see, and then the angles to tighten the straps are different when you do it yourself.

Hi Abbas-Al-Morim, thank you for this. Is it an urban myth then that a knight could not stand up again once he was knocked down in battle?

I think with the jousting plate it could happen, also exhaustion and fatigue could leave a fallen knight to weak to get himself back on his feet.

Hi CupofJoe, I was at a Steamfair once in a London country park where they were staging a re-enactment of knights fighting and some bright spark dressed as a knight gave me some chain mail to hold. I had a shock when I discovered how heavy it was and immediately dropped it! Presumably, when we see actors playing knights on stage or in films, they are not wearing real armour?

I hope you didn't drop the chain in dirt or mud, picking out the chain would be time consuming.
I have made chain maille items, they are heavy. I use 14 gauge galvanized wire to make mine, the weight builds quickly. Chain is good against a slashing weapon, but worthless for blunt force. A heavy sword might not penetrate the chain, but the person could still die of internal injuries from blunt force trauma. Chain on the head was more dangerous then helpful imho.

Just a note on Plate armor. The armor everyone is talking about is specially fitted to the person and the straps adjusted to fit just right. If you pick up plate on the run, it probably won't fit right. For example, most peoples arms aren't the same length, the hinge bends at the elbow, if your elbow and the elbow piece aren't in the right spot, you won't be able to use them or some spot on your arm might be exposed.
Chain bends everywhere, so chain isn't as important to have just the right length.

Sorry, didn't quote you Guru,
The knight would have as many assitants as his money could support. Usually one squire minimum, but I believe they could have many other assistance. Paiges were Squire's in training.(squires were Knights in training.)

Middle Ages for Kids - Knights, Squires, Pages

 

[Guru Coyote]

Ah, wait. Was the OP about a knight going to battle or about a knight climbing down a mountain?

 

[Malik]

I thought it was climbing down a mountain after a battle.

 

[Butterfly]

Here's the source.

It depends on the definition of climbing.

Climbing down a rope in armor -- any kind of armor -- would be possible if you knew the technique; you would do a fast-rope with the rope around one leg and your other foot as a brake. This is really more of a slide than a climb, but it's not impossible. The trick would be explaining how he learned it.

Any type of technical rock climbing, anything more than a scramble up or down an incline over fist-sized hand- and footholds, would be pretty much out in almost any kind of armor.

Simply walking down a mountainside in armor? Even in full harness, there's nothing to it. The problem with armor wasn't that it hampered mobility, it's that it took a lot of energy out of you. There was a Popular Mechanics article with guys in 15th-Century armor on a treadmill, testing their oxygen usage with a respirometer. They found that wearing full harness takes about twice as much energy and oxygen as not wearing it.

It's the same problem with modern ballistic armor, today. It's hot, it's heavy, it chafes. You're worn to a frazzle at the end of the day and all you can think about it getting out of it. I've run obstacle courses in the IOTV, which with all its plates weighs more than a shirt of mail. It sucks, but it's doable.

I'm looking at this and I'm thinking that's not really armour fit for battle. I mean gaps at the shoulder, no neck protection, thigh protection, no helmet, no backplate. It's pretty lightweight for the job so, to me, doesn't really seem to be a true test of battle armour capabilities.

 

[Butterfly]

Very good points about jousting and battle-armor.
There is the idea of foot-soldiers going about after a battle and killing off the knights who coulsn't rise out of the mud... but that could well be explained by exaustion and injury.

Somebody did a documentary on the battle of Agincourt.

Basically it was the depth and type of mud found on the battlefield that caused the problems in getting back up when a man in plate fell into it... was sticky mud.

The plate armour guys were stuck in the mud, the archers, in leather weren't. Plate armour created an air seal, and greater air suction when submersed, whereas leather and cloth armour being porous didn't. So the archers were free to move through it, while the fellas in plate struggled to pull their boots out of the mire, and if they had fallen face down, or submerged they basically drowned because they couldn't break the suction seals.


To answer the question though...

If he has enough rope, he could strip it off and lower it down before he makes the descent. Once on the bottom dress only in the most important bits... Breastplate, helmet.

The other suggestion I had... tying it to his belt has already been done.

 

[Guy]

Hi CupofJoe, I was at a Steamfair once in a London country park where they were staging a re-enactment of knights fighting and some bright spark dressed as a knight gave me some chain mail to hold. I had a shock when I discovered how heavy it was and immediately dropped it! Presumably, when we see actors playing knights on stage or in films, they are not wearing real armour?

I have a shirt of riveted mail. The sleeves come down to the elbow and the hem comes down to mid thigh. The shirt weighs about twenty pounds. It doesn't sound like much but, as you found out, you feel it. I'm 5'10", 185 pounds, 43 years old and in reasonably good condition, but doing any activity while wearing that shirt is significantly different than when not wearing that shirt. I tire out more quickly, I feel it in my thighs sooner, I lose my snap and some of my agility sooner.

 

[Malik]

I'm looking at this and I'm thinking that's not really armour fit for battle. I mean gaps at the shoulder, no neck protection, thigh protection, no helmet, no backplate. It's pretty lightweight for the job so, to me, doesn't really seem to be a true test of battle armour capabilities.

This is authentic 14th-century armor. Armor was an ongoing process. Given the weaponry used in the 1300's, this was plenty.

This is 15th-century armor:

Except he'd have gloves. Overall, though, much better coverage, comparable maneuverability, but heavier.

There's a full post on armor, from simple linen jacks to full 15th-century harness, on my blog; basically an expansion on my earlier post, with pictures. The link's in my sig.

 

[Ruby]

Armor was not a thing; it was a process. People wore as much as they could afford or as much as they thought they needed.

Fantasy writing is research. There are entire books written on armor. There's also a ton of information on the Internet but if you get your information from LARP or RPG enthusiasts, you're going to be wrong. A lot.

For starters, though, look up Poul Anderson's essay "On Thud & Blunder."

Also, I have a blog post on armor. I should probably do another one, though.

Armor is heavy. It sucks. But it works. That's why soldiers wear it, even today. If I knew my armor wouldn't work, I'd leave it in my tent. This, I believe, has not changed throughout history. I believe that Vendel-age warriors shucked off their mail with a groan at the end of the day and wanted to hurl it across the room the same way that we do with our military body armor today.

A shirt of iron mail weighed 20-30 lbs. Mail was worn over quilted padding and sometimes over a vest or jerkin of thick leather.

The kind of armor that we see in the video I posted is a man-at-arms harness, what people call "full plate" armor. It was extremely expensive and was the mark of exceptional wealth, on par with having a private jet today.

That suit in the video is from the 1300's. In the 1400's and 1500's field harnesses got even more elaborate.

Each suit was custom-made and would only fit one person. It weighed anywhere from 40 to 60 lbs, including the mail that went under it. That weight was very well distributed, as you can see. And weight is not a concern.

Anybody who fights for a living will want as much protection as he can get; whatever he can afford and whatever he can transport to the battle site, whether he wears it, packs it on a second horse, or has a wizard teleport it along with a team of valets who will work on him like a pit crew once he gets there. He will want it as light and comfortable as possible and he won't wear any more than he thinks he has to, but he will wear as much as he possibly can get away with. He might -- might -- forgo a degree of protection for convenience, but as a professional soldier myself I don't know anyone who would do this if he knew that enemy contact was certain or even likely.

My first thought, if I receive a mission with expected enemy contact, isn't "Boy, my armor's gonna slow me down." My first thought -- and every soldier's first thought -- is "Now, where did I put that extra armor?" Followed by "I need to attach every single plate, flap, and auxiliary piece on my armor, and I hope I get to carry the SAW. I wonder how many grenades I can fit in this pouch?" I don't care if it adds 40 lbs. to my load-out; if there are gonna be badguys, I want as much armor as I can get and whatever weapons come closest to being "excessively injurious or having indiscriminate effects" according to the laws of war without technically going over the line. I'm convinced that mindset has not changed throughout human history.

Even if the armor is heavy, he'll use it if he can, along with a great big honker of a shield and a massive helmet and the biggest weapons that he can wield effectively, if he has any instinct for self-preservation.

Last point: Mark Twain was a satirist. He wrote A Connecticut Yankee making fun of the great Arthurian legends. It wasn't supposed to be historically accurate.

Thank you, Malik for this post. I have read your blog and shared it in other media. I recommend it for anyone who wants to learn about real warfare. Your comment that "Fantasy writing is research" is also true and often requires much more research than some other genres.
I am going to have a look at works of writers I admire and see how they described the armour worn by knights and warriors.
Btw I did realise that the Mark Twain book was a satire.

 

[Malik]

Hey, Ruby, thanks. Did you read the blog post I linked in that quoted post above, or did you read the most recent post on armor?

Happy New Year!

 

[Ruby]

All that metal holds in heat in warm times, but the metal displaces heat extremely fast in winter. Basically there is a small window when the armor is comfortable.


I think a knight could get into armor without assistance but would take a long time and probably couldn't tighten things down properly. Its hard to feel the buckle that another person can see, and then the angles to tighten the straps are different when you do it yourself.


I think with the jousting plate it could happen, also exhaustion and fatigue could leave a fallen knight to weak to get himself back on his feet.


I hope you didn't drop the chain in dirt or mud, picking out the chain would be time consuming.
I have made chain maille items, they are heavy. I use 14 gauge galvanized wire to make mine, the weight builds quickly. Chain is good against a slashing weapon, but worthless for blunt force. A heavy sword might not penetrate the chain, but the person could still die of internal injuries from blunt force trauma. Chain on the head was more dangerous then helpful imho.

Just a note on Plate armor. The armor everyone is talking about is specially fitted to the person and the straps adjusted to fit just right. If you pick up plate on the run, it probably won't fit right. For example, most peoples arms aren't the same length, the hinge bends at the elbow, if your elbow and the elbow piece aren't in the right spot, you won't be able to use them or some spot on your arm might be exposed.
Chain bends everywhere, so chain isn't as important to have just the right length.

Sorry, didn't quote you Guru,
The knight would have as many assitants as his money could support. Usually one squire minimum, but I believe they could have many other assistance. Paiges were Squire's in training.(squires were Knights in training.)

Middle Ages for Kids - Knights, Squires, Pages

Hi SeverinR. No, I didn't "drop the chain in dirt or mud", but just on dry grass in summer. It was an enormous bundle of chain mail and the "knight" had been talking to me about the armour he was wearing. He didn't say how heavy it was and gave it to me as some kind of joke. He expected me to drop it. He said people don't realise how heavy it is! If he'd just told me I'd have believed him.
I've done some more research today, and learned that knights were often from rich families and had to work their way up the ranks, starting as pages as you say in your post. Their armour and weapons were very expensive to buy and the armour was "made to measure". I think the knights were one rank below nobility. It's quite strange that people are knighted in the UK now for things that have nothing to do with fighting eg pop stars, actors. It used to be as a reward for loyalty to the monarch, warfare and for land. There was also a notion of chivalry.

 

[Ruby]

Ah, wait. Was the OP about a knight going to battle or about a knight climbing down a mountain?

Hi Guru Coyote, it was about a knight climbing down a mountain. I won't reveal how he got up there as I'm writing it for the Reaver challenge on here. I'll give you a clue though, think of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Ruby]

I thought it was climbing down a mountain after a battle.

Hi Malik. No, he's just arrived on the mountain and has to climb down in order to do battle. He's on a quest. (There's magic involved).

 

[Ruby]

Somebody did a documentary on the battle of Agincourt.

Basically it was the depth and type of mud found on the battlefield that caused the problems in getting back up when a man in plate fell into it... was sticky mud.

The plate armour guys were stuck in the mud, the archers, in leather weren't. Plate armour created an air seal, and greater air suction when submersed, whereas leather and cloth armour being porous didn't. So the archers were free to move through it, while the fellas in plate struggled to pull their boots out of the mire, and if they had fallen face down, or submerged they basically drowned because they couldn't break the suction seals.


To answer the question though...

If he has enough rope, he could strip it off and lower it down before he makes the descent. Once on the bottom dress only in the most important bits... Breastplate, helmet.

The other suggestion I had... tying it to his belt has already been done.

Hi Butterfly. I find your post very interesting because you say that a fighter who was not wearing metal armour would have an advantage over the knight, if they were fighting in a muddy place. I may use this as the knight's opponent is not wearing metal armour. He does, however, have a weapon.
Also, would the knight be able to put armour on his arms and legs unaided?

 

[Ruby]

Hey, Ruby, thanks. Did you read the blog post I linked in that quoted post above, or did you read the most recent post on armor?

Happy New Year!

Hi Malik, Happy New Year!
I read several of your blogs and shared your post on "Master Class: Desert Warfare." I found the two photographs of contrasting views of the same mountain fascinating, how's that for propaganda! That could also be used in a fantasy context, couldn't it- well I have a mountain on the island that's becoming central to the plot (ha ha!) I've also just read your latest post on "Armor Basics" which I'd imagine everyone whose contributed to this thread would find extremely useful. I have just shared that, too. I shall be using it for reference in my WIP.

 

[Ruby]

I just want to say thank you to everyone who gave me advice on this post. If you want to find out how the knight climbed down from the top of a mountain (or not!) you can now find my story on the entry post for the Reaver Challenge. Thanks, again!