I Don't Care About Your MFA: Writing Vs. Storytelling

[Heliotrope]

Yep. And this is where I think the generation of "positive thinking" is failing us.

There is this very weird myth out there that we are supposed to be happy all the time. That everything we do is supposed to be deeply fulfilling on a spiritual level. That if we aren't constantly in a state of bliss then there is something wrong with us. We need to change careers, or partners, or find whatever else it is that will put us back in that state of bliss.

But guess what? Life is hard bloody work. Being successful takes hard bloody work, sweat, and yep, even tears.

Nobody who is successful loved what they did every single minute. Writers have to do dirty jobs they hate to get paid. They have to sacrifice their "creativity" sometimes to get paid. They are in a constant partnership with the reader and they must consider the reader in order to get paid.

They have to do boring stuff like study, and learn, and read craft books, and go through crappy critiques and try again. They have to be rejected for years and years and keep getting back up and brushing themselves off and be willing to try again.

In writing, like in ANY profession, there are no special snowflakes. Your book is not going to flow freely from your head like Athena, or be written for you while you sleep by magical fairies.

In order to be successful at anything I think you need the trifecta:

Skill
Talent (creativity in this case)
Drive

Some people have one, some have two, the truly successful have all three.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Yep. And this is where I think the generation of "positive thinking" is failing us.

There is this very weird myth out there that we are supposed to be happy all the time. That everything we do is supposed to be deeply fulfilling on a spiritual level. That if we aren't constantly in a state of bliss then there is something wrong with us. We need to change careers, or partners, or find whatever else it is that will put us back in that state of bliss.

But guess what? Life is hard bloody work. Being successful takes hard bloody work, sweat, and yep, even tears.

Nobody who is successful loved what they did every single minute. Writers have to do dirty jobs they hate to get paid. They have to sacrifice their "creativity" sometimes to get paid. They are in a constant partnership with the reader and they must consider the reader in order to get paid.

They have to do boring stuff like study, and learn, and read craft books, and go through crappy critiques and try again. They have to be rejected for years and years and keep getting back up and brushing themselves off and be willing to try again.

In writing, like in ANY profession, there are no special snowflakes. Your book is not going to flow freely from your head like Athena, or be written for you while you sleep by magical fairies.

In order to be successful at anything I think you need the trifecta:

Skill
Talent (creativity in this case)
Drive

Some people have one, some have two, the truly successful have all three.

And I don't expect to be happy all the time! Half the time when I sit down to write I don't want to. It's a commitment, and I don't do it just when I feel like it or just when it's fun. But seeing my unique ideas bloom to life is very, very rewarding (although there is a lot of pain, headache and occasionally just boredom involved in getting them there) and this is where my concern lies.

I love writing, and I don't want it to be "just a job." I don't expect it to be fun always or easy ever, but I do want it to be fulfilling. I want to communicate my ideas and feelings instead of just...putting together stories so I can make money and won't die. Can you do both (communicate your ideas and not die?) I'm scared of what I might have to compromise.

it always alarms me when writers act like their job is a drudgery they are resigned to, when they don't seem excited about the things they write...(again, this is a common vibe I get from various places, not its this one article) The life of a modern writer seems to revolve around writing what publishers want. I mean, duh, I guess? Of course we write what publishers want? And of course we try to please our audience. They're our readers! But writing is SO innately communicative for me and I have stories I'm trying to get out and if they just aren't acceptable in the market for whatever reason then...what?

I'm kinda at a point in my life where I need to start deciding what I want to do with my life. I could pursue writing for a living, but I don't want to churn out books factory-fashion. I don't want to submit my muse repeatedly to the fad of the day. I don't want my ultimate objective to be making money, or pleasing people. I could make good stuff that way, but it would feel ungenuine. I could enjoy it, but it wouldn't be fulfilling ultimately. I don't want to end up writing book after book I don't care about because I have to survive, is basically what I want to say.

I thrive on the art. This is my brain wiring, I think--I thrive on being obsessed, and that's why writing keeps me mentally healthy. I think maybe not all writers are like this, but I thrive on being excited about and in love with my ideas. I...just don't see a huge amount of enthusiasm about writing in the world of writers who write for a living. It's more like, yes, I enjoy writing. And hell yes I enjoy writing. The act of writing. I like short stories and crap I have no connection to. But the prospect of being stuck in writing as a career and possibly NEVER HAVING a madly passionate connection to a story is a little depressing. I don't want writing to EVER be not meaningful for me. It's the main way I communicate with the outside world. I can communicate through writing things I couldn't otherwise show the outside world.

I'm a bit worried about "keeping afloat" being my Reason For Writing rather than sharing my soul with the world. In my experience, the stuff that's really REAL and true and genuine, that actually says something to the world, is driven by a greater reason for writing than "because I have to" (school assignment. to get paid. Any of those)

Isn't it OKAY for me to pursue another job while I write on the side and submit to publishers, hoping my ideas will catch a publisher's eye, instead of writing to deadlines and audiences? Or even not plan on publishing at all? Making a living solely on writing may not be for me. I'm figuring that out.

And you might say, but you can find fulfillment and please an audience and publishers at the same time...and of course you can. But. Part of why this is so scary s that all my books and ideas are hard, hard sells. They don't fit into genres and obey tropes. They're just...unusual. Not like stuff I've seen on the market. And I LIKE them that way. They don't need to be fixed or changed. I like them that way. It would make me deeply happy if others did too. But they won't reliably provide income or anything because, well, I like to try new and weirder things every time I write a book. Stuff that, well, probably will fail sometimes. I'm okay with that but...I might starve if my books keep failing. I don't WANT to "fix" my books to cater to an audience.

Does ANY of this make sense? Am I just in need of realizing a hard truth or can anyone relate to these feelings? I mean, I feel dumb and immature saying this, and I don't even want to post it because I feel like everyone will just think I need to grow up. (I'm working on it! Growing up, that is.) But...it is the truth of what I feel. And I do have to figure out what I'll be doing for the rest of my life.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Well, I certainly derailed this thread something awful.

I feel so whiny now.

 

[Chessie]

Well, I certainly derailed this thread something awful.

I feel so whiny now.

No. You're totally entitled to freely state your thoughts and opinions here. However, I encourage you to look into other sources if you want to be a professional writer someday. You can absolutely write what you love and make a living. Many writers do it. In fact, a career in writing fiction is a long-term thing that will go through its ups and downs. If you, as a writer, want to be around for the long haul, then writing what you love is the only way you're going to get there. It's the only way you're going to produce work that's rich with individuality and originality. The only way you'll improve your skill to an acceptable level where people will pay you for your work.

I did ghostwrite for a while and although it was soul sucking for me, there are others out there who enjoy that line of work. I was paid well for it. But I rather publish my own ideas, so that's where my focus lies.

Writing books for a living is rewarding and fun but also takes a tremendous amount of discipline. You're not going to have that discipline and drive if you're not writing what you're passionate about. The idea that creating art does not equal to having a career is not based on fact, and I implore you to find other resources to learn from so you're able to thrive in this dream of yours when you're at the point of starting.

But I'd like to touch on a very important point: audience. Without an audience, you're not going to sell. Without an audience, you may as well shove those books back in a drawer. Write the book for your own entertainment first, yes, but also remember that you're writing to provide others with an experience. They matter too. When writing my books, I need to keep in mind that my readers expect certain things from that story. I WANT to give them that. Does this mean my book isn't art? Well, to me it is. It's art because it comes from my heart, it comes from my creative brain, it comes from a deep desire to enrich a reader's experience someday. It's art because I have something to share.

**Giving readers what they want = studying story structure. That's it. You only need to know and understand storytelling.**

An old friend of mine is an artist. When she first started out, her work wasn't that great. It was strange and weird and I had no idea what to think about. Fast forward 10 years and the woman is selling these gigantic Alaska Native masks that she's painted, are breathtaking, and she's making a living from it. For years she worked on honing her author voice, you could say. Her work now is very individual, very creative, very unique. Those masks are the size of surfboards and they have her Native Alaskan flare. She makes pieces that people can put on their walls. That's the point, right? To make art that people can put on their walls. So is it any less art? No. It's still art, that she's making in a certain way because she wants people to buy her art so she can feed her kids.

In this same way I view writing for a living. The idea that you have to sell out in order to make money is based on fallacy. It takes time to get name recognition, to create a backlist, BOTH of which help you sell books. That's it. It just takes time. Not selling out. Time. Patience. And Discipline. Your audience will find you.

EDIT: A final point, and I write this with love and respect, but if you (anyone you) is considering pursuing a career as a professional fiction writer, but you don't want to "churn out books", then give other career options some thought. Every book is money. Trade contracts have you write 1 book per year (more give or take depending on the author and where they're at in their career). But you cannot make a living with a one time advance. Remember, the book still has to sell and make money. So, in order to make a living, a writer needs to write A LOT and that is consistent advice across the board from pretty much every professional writer ever. If you're not okay with producing several books or short stories per year, then this may not be the option for you. Js.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

No. You're totally entitled to freely state your thoughts and opinions here. However, I encourage you to look into other sources if you want to be a professional writer someday. You can absolutely write what you love and make a living. Many writers do it. In fact, a career in writing fiction is a long-term thing that will go through its ups and downs. If you, as a writer, want to be around for the long haul, then writing what you love is the only way you're going to get there. It's the only way you're going to produce work that's rich with individuality and originality. The only way you'll improve your skill to an acceptable level where people will pay you for your work.

I did ghostwrite for a while and although it was soul sucking for me, there are others out there who enjoy that line of work. I was paid well for it. But I rather publish my own ideas, so that's where my focus lies.

Writing books for a living is rewarding and fun but also takes a tremendous amount of discipline. You're not going to have that discipline and drive if you're not writing what you're passionate about. The idea that creating art does not equal to having a career is not based on fact, and I implore you to find other resources to learn from so you're able to thrive in this dream of yours when you're at the point of starting.

But I'd like to touch on a very important point: audience. Without an audience, you're not going to sell. Without an audience, you may as well shove those books back in a drawer. Write the book for your own entertainment first, yes, but also remember that you're writing to provide others with an experience. They matter too. When writing my books, I need to keep in mind that my readers expect certain things from that story. I WANT to give them that. Does this mean my book isn't art? Well, to me it is. It's art because it comes from my heart, it comes from my creative brain, it comes from a deep desire to enrich a reader's experience someday. It's art because I have something to share.

**Giving readers what they want = studying story structure. That's it. You only need to know and understand storytelling.**

An old friend of mine is an artist. When she first started out, her work wasn't that great. It was strange and weird and I had no idea what to think about. Fast forward 10 years and the woman is selling these gigantic Alaska Native masks that she's painted, are breathtaking, and she's making a living from it. For years she worked on honing her author voice, you could say. Her work now is very individual, very creative, very unique. Those masks are the size of surfboards and they have her Native Alaskan flare. She makes pieces that people can put on their walls. That's the point, right? To make art that people can put on their walls. So is it any less art? No. It's still art, that she's making in a certain way because she wants people to buy her art so she can feed her kids.

In this same way I view writing for a living. The idea that you have to sell out in order to make money is based on fallacy. It takes time to get name recognition, to create a backlist, BOTH of which help you sell books. That's it. It just takes time. Not selling out. Time. Patience. And Discipline. Your audience will find you.

EDIT: A final point, and I write this with love and respect, but if you (anyone you) is considering pursuing a career as a professional fiction writer, but you don't want to "churn out books", then give other career options some thought. Every book is money. Trade contracts have you write 1 book per year (more give or take depending on the author and where they're at in their career). But you cannot make a living with a one time advance. Remember, the book still has to sell and make money. So, in order to make a living, a writer needs to write A LOT and that is consistent advice across the board from pretty much every professional writer ever. If you're not okay with producing several books or short stories per year, then this may not be the option for you. Js.

That last bit is kinda what I'm trying to figure out; is writing for a living the best thing for me, or should I pursue writing concurrently with another job that keeps me fed and housed?

Some of my projects I might want to spend years exploring. I don't know what my journey as a writer will look like.

 

[Chessie]

It's an adventure. Just keep writing and see where it goes.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

And I don't think at all that writing for an audience means something isn't art. In fact it's the EXACT opposite. Art means communication, for me at least, and communication implies that there's someone you're speaking to. Somewhere out there.

So, I don't know where the fear is stemming from...I don't understand entirely. I suppose I fear writing to please a group of people that will give me money rather than writing to reach a group of people that I can connect to using my work. But the two overlap, don't they? Or are they the same somehow? Hmm...

I don't want to end up selling something that isn't really me. Or worse, having to hold back/not being able to put out there the stuff that IS me. It seems like publishers can be strict gatekeepers of what is acceptable and what isn't. Even doing stuff for money for *a while* would probably grate on me after a bit.

I find it interesting how Helio talks about success. What is success? That'll be different for everyone, I think.

I've always kind of assumed I would spend a long time in whatever job before I could write for a living so my college plans kind of included that assumption. But is writing "professionally" healthiest for what *I* want to accomplish? This is so far away, lol. But, yeah. I'm thinking about my future.

Edit: I would probably rather write for a living than any other job. But, I don't want to become anything like the bitter article-writers that have stuck in my head...that is, I want writing to continue to have meaning for me. Sometimes I feel like the business of writing gets in the way of the meaning for some people and they end up losing it in pursuit of success. Perhaps not every project will have the same level of meaning. Heck, I'll probably end up writing lots of "whatever" projects. But...my ultimate goal is to get the stuff I'm really passionate about out there. Will it be publishable, will people like it...? No way to know that...

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Lol @ 16 year old me over here trying to plan out my whole life.

 

[Chessie]

I'm not even sure how we got on this topic/so detoured from the OG sentiment for this thread but...

And I don't think at all that writing for an audience means something isn't art. In fact it's the EXACT opposite. Art means communication, for me at least, and communication implies that there's someone you're speaking to. Somewhere out there.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. From all your other posts, I gather that you share your writing with your friends, or at least like to. They're an audience. Your audience. There's this notion/idea that if a writer wants to make a living off their work, they aren't being artistic. And to that I say, "who cares!" Because it's not anyone's pie to worry about. Pretty much every writer desires an audience. In your other post (and below) you say that you fear selling work that isn't "you" in order to make a living, therefore implying that in order to sell you can't be yourself. That's simply not the case. Publishers are always looking for original work. Readers are always looking for original work (look at Miskatonic's thread as an example). Writing to an audience is what every writer does! And in order to write a book that many readers will pay you for, over and over again through the course of a book's life, it has to be a book that's not only original but also benefits the readers by delivering genre promises. That's not selling out. That's being a professional.

I suppose I fear writing to please a group of people that will give me money rather than writing to reach a group of people that I can connect to using my work.

Again, you're connecting to your audience regardless and by the way, do you realize how difficult it is for new authors to even build an audience? It's flipping harder than writing the book! That's why there's all this advice about how to start building a platform before you start publishing, because name recognition is the #1 thing, along with word of mouth, that sells books. New authors have no name recognition. So selling isn't easy. Building an audience isn't easy. Dismissing that part of the gig is a mistake, really. And if your book is selling well, that means the story struck a chord, and you are pleasing the audience.

What is success?

You're right. Success is personally defined. That's why if a writer wants to write pulp fiction and make a living that way, and they reach their standards of success, then it isn't right for anyone else to not call their work art or say it's selling out somehow.

Edit: I would probably rather write for a living than any other job. But, I don't want to become anything like the bitter article-writers that have stuck in my head...that is, I want writing to continue to have meaning for me. Sometimes I feel like the business of writing gets in the way of the meaning for some people and they end up losing it in pursuit of success. Perhaps not every project will have the same level of meaning.

Maybe they're not embittered. The author of this particular article wrote about something sensitive to her. We can all judge it in our own way, but the tone speaks more to that this is an important topic for HER, but it doesn't mean she hates writing or making a living from writing. I don't believe that you have a grasp or understanding of the business side of things, which is totally ok given where you're at in life, but I'm taking this time to clarify for you because the world of publishing has dramatically changed in the last several years and I encourage anyone thinking of doing this for a living to educate themselves the right way.

You can't run a business or have a career running on assumptions based off other people and the way they run their businesses. I don't want other writers to come here and read this thinking that writing for a living will suck their souls because that's quite the contrary to facts. Many, if not most writers here on these forums would probably love to either write full-time or receive part-time hobby income from their work. To attach a thought like "you can only do that if you sell your soul" is ludicrous. Writing books and selling them makes writers happy. Period. I chat with many writers online all the time and ones irl and the ones who write full time are happy that they are working for themselves, selling their art, no longer having to work a full-time job + writing and that all of their efforts are dedicated to doing what they love.

I was never more miserable than when I worked full-time and also wrote. Why? Because writing is all I want to do. I realize that building an audience is going to take me years and I'm ready for that. I do what I can each day to bring that reality a bit closer. It's not easy running the business side. Like I said, writing is the easy part. And I wouldn't do it if I couldn't write what I love.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I'm not even sure how we got on this topic/so detoured from the OG sentiment for this thread but...


You're contradicting yourself a bit here. From all your other posts, I gather that you share your writing with your friends, or at least like to. They're an audience. Your audience. There's this notion/idea that if a writer wants to make a living off their work, they aren't being artistic. And to that I say, "who cares!" Because it's not anyone's pie to worry about. Pretty much every writer desires an audience. In your other post (and below) you say that you fear selling work that isn't "you" in order to make a living, therefore implying that in order to sell you can't be yourself. That's simply not the case. Publishers are always looking for original work. Readers are always looking for original work (look at Miskatonic's thread as an example). Writing to an audience is what every writer does! And in order to write a book that many readers will pay you for, over and over again through the course of a book's life, it has to be a book that's not only original but also benefits the readers by delivering genre promises. That's not selling out. That's being a professional.




Again, you're connecting to your audience regardless and by the way, do you realize how difficult it is for new authors to even build an audience? It's flipping harder than writing the book! That's why there's all this advice about how to start building a platform before you start publishing, because name recognition is the #1 thing, along with word of mouth, that sells books. New authors have no name recognition. So selling isn't easy. Building an audience isn't easy. Dismissing that part of the gig is a mistake, really. And if your book is selling well, that means the story struck a chord, and you are pleasing the audience.




You're right. Success is personally defined. That's why if a writer wants to write pulp fiction and make a living that way, and they reach their standards of success, then it isn't right for anyone else to not call their work art or say it's selling out somehow.



Maybe they're not embittered. The author of this particular article wrote about something sensitive to her. We can all judge it in our own way, but the tone speaks more to that this is an important topic for HER, but it doesn't mean she hates writing or making a living from writing. I don't believe that you have a grasp or understanding of the business side of things, which is totally ok given where you're at in life, but I'm taking this time to clarify for you because the world of publishing has dramatically changed in the last several years and I encourage anyone thinking of doing this for a living to educate themselves the right way.

You can't run a business or have a career running on assumptions based off other people and the way they run their businesses. I don't want other writers to come here and read this thinking that writing for a living will suck their souls because that's quite the contrary to facts. Many, if not most writers here on these forums would probably love to either write full-time or receive part-time hobby income from their work. To attach a thought like "you can only do that if you sell your soul" is ludicrous. Writing books and selling them makes writers happy. Period. I chat with many writers online all the time and ones irl and the ones who write full time are happy that they are working for themselves, selling their art, no longer having to work a full-time job + writing and that all of their efforts are dedicated to doing what they love.

I was never more miserable than when I worked full-time and also wrote. Why? Because writing is all I want to do. I realize that building an audience is going to take me years and I'm ready for that. I do what I can each day to bring that reality a bit closer. It's not easy running the business side. Like I said, writing is the easy part. And I wouldn't do it if I couldn't write what I love.

That's what I meant by derailing the thread, lol. Oopses.

And, all you're saying is encouraging, I suppose (that writing for a living won't make me hate it...).

I'm not sure where I was going with...okay, a lot of what I was saying. I'm confused by yesterday me.

 

[Russ]

I find threads like this so fascinating for so many reasons.

Firstly to DOA, I spend a lot of time with people who make their living at writing, including living with one. Most of them are very happy doing it. Relax.

As Lee Child said "I know a lot of lawyers trying to become writers, I don't know anyone trying to go the other way."

Education is generally a good thing. The graduate program I know well is about Writing Genre Fiction. So, for instance, my wife has a masters in writing genre fiction. The graduates of that program, without statistical analysis, sure seem to have much more success in publishing than the general group of people trying to get published. It is the right program, targeted to what you want to do. Sure you can get an MFA and study Chaucer, and Shakespeare, and the minutiae of more classic literary works, but that is not the program I think you should put your money in if your goal is to be a published writer in modern genre fiction. IF you want to write modern genre fiction you should study it directly, not indirectly and there are many good programs that allow you to do so.

The other good thing about these genre fiction masters or MFA programs is that you meet a whole bunch of people who have the same interests as you, and many of them end up in your industry. Many of the people who come out of these programs become writers and editors in genre fiction (surprise, surprise) and knowing a whole bunch of people in your industry has value.

 

[AnonymousNobody]

... Ok... my freaking add blocker just ate my rant, and I cannot get angry
enough at the moment to do the situation justice. (My brain hurts too much to be
accommodating.) This is an outrage, plain and simple. Arrrgh, I tell you...
Arrrgh...

Okay, but I was going to say something along the lines of, that article is why I
am practically allergic to modern fiction, of any kind. Almost always it sounds
like somebody with a dictionary, a thesaurus and a masters in English put all
three in a blender, and wants to pour it down my throat. And charge me $10 for
the privilege. Not just NO. $&%^ NO!

I don't care how famous the person is, how many books they've published, or how
many best seller lists they're #1 on. I'm not interested in a carefully curated
essay, an attempt at winning a poetry/prose award or any other polished-to-death
plastic nonsense. I'd rather read, cover to cover, a circa 1920's book aimed at
8 year olds. At least early fiction was often charming even when it was badly
written. And it didn't always rely on cheap ploys to keep the reader from
throwing the book away. Usually you had to get all of the way to the end of the
book for the exciting part, which required the ability to actually read
something and take interest in people and ideas and tiny details, rather than
mindless, non-stop action and smut. Old books were really cool like that. I
mean, imagine taking it for granted that your reader has brains enough to care
about, or to understand, something other than explosions and seedy rubbish!
Weird, huh?!

Hooray for good old books (and the alarmingly rare newer one)! Without them, I
would hardly have any!

Okay. I'm done for the present.