I Don't Like Anything. Why? How?

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Most of my reading is a random assortment of spec fic+ quite a bit of nonfiction, some contemporary, some classics, some historical fiction stuff. Not sure if counts as branching out.

 

[Chessie2]

This is a pretty good description of how I'm feeling in part, just with different things. "Why aren't people doing THIS with fantasy?"'

Except for me it's: Why aren't people writing epic, lore-steeped fantasy sagas about non-European cultures? Why are children's books more imaginative with creatures, dragons and world building than adult novels? (Seriously. How to Train Your Dragon: Children's book full of fart jokes, comes up with over 100 unique species. Most adult novels: literally just color-codes them.) This steampunk tech is cool, why isn't there more fantasy like this? This historical fiction is cool, why can't fantasy take inspiration from this time period? *on wikipedia looking at prehistoric animals* THIS STUFF IS SO DAMN COOL WHY DOES EVERYONE HAVE TO HAVE PLAIN HORSES AND WOLVES AND ETC IN FANTASY. This post apocalyptic stuff is a really interesting concept, what if dragons? This weird fiction author is so imaginative, if only his books were thicker and more in number and had DRAGONS and a large cast of characters and lots of different cultures and kingdoms...This genre has so much potential, why are we using these tropes again?

Money and visibility. It's really quite that simple.

If you ever publish, you'll understand the whys a lot more. When you, as a writer/author struggling to break into publishing, are constantly rejected by trad OR can't sell books on Amazon because they don't fit within a certain scope of the genre, rejection will push you to write more to market. This doesn't mean basic; it just means writing the things that readers are crazy about. Most readers want the same but different. You, Dragon, are a rarity. For an author trying to make a living at selling their work, they are going to have to market/follow the readers en masse, not the ones who have unique tastes like you. Not dissing here, just trying to help you understand that money talks and that's why you're having such a hard time finding books to read that you enjoy. Plus, I think there's this permeating belief in publishing that readers are basic and all like the same things, but that's another topic for another day.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

You will never read anything that you don't think could be better... that's the pain in the ass of being a writer.

It took about a year for me to get into and finish Dragon's Trail, I just can't read Name of the Wind. SoIaF... I mean, I love it overall, but I SKIM! There, I admitted it. He piles in detail and throws in... well, throwaway chapters... way too much for my taste. GoT was the best book because it was the tightest, you can see the difference between even the first several chapters of GoT and the rest of his writing.

Mr. Knox found it odd I leave out some words in my voice (not an accident at all) Helio thinks I need more detail. And so on, and so on.

I have mellowed and find myself able to read more now, but it's tough sometimes.

That's the thing, though. I'm still in love with the fantasy genre or the *concept* of fantasy (though very much out of love with some common tropes of it). That, and anything alt history, weird fiction, or speculative and eccentric in the broadest terms. What it seems, though, is that something in my brain is like "Not quite." whenever I read a book. I mean that at least partially, my dissatisfaction seems to be with degree rather than kind. This book is what I want, but it's not *enough* of what i want. Not imaginative enough or in depth enough or *something.* I enjoy books, but even the best ones don't seem that good. I'm somehow able to still be critical; needs more worldbuilding, more details on this, writing could be polished up, this is really underdeveloped, why is this character here?...always something to make me say, this could be better. I love fantasy because I like visiting strange realities with other cultures and creatures and kingdoms and powers. Things that are different from here...I keep ending up in bad parodies of Earth.

Or maybe it's that i'm reading everything popular and expecting my tastes to align and they just don't. I tried Pern not too long ago, for instance. Didnt like those books at all. I had to force myself to finish the first one. Read ten pages, stop, try another ten pages...Just grueling. I guess it would have been better if F'lar wasn't an abusive asswipe.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, I'm starting the books in a Vikingesque clan-politics setting, you'll move into more medieval, then feudal and jungles... If I get readers sucked into the world, then I will expand into the wild cultures that litter my world. But, even then, the main culture's religion and philosophy are pretty different. Detailed and nutsy religions will make my cultures do some funky things, LOL.

Money and visibility. It's really quite that simple.

If you ever publish, you'll understand the whys a lot more. When you, as a writer/author struggling to break into publishing, are constantly rejected by trad OR can't sell books on Amazon because they don't fit within a certain scope of the genre, rejection will push you to write more to market. This doesn't mean basic; it just means writing the things that readers are crazy about. Most readers want the same but different. You, Dragon, are a rarity. For an author trying to make a living at selling their work, they are going to have to market/follow the readers en masse, not the ones who have unique tastes like you. Not dissing here, just trying to help you understand that money talks and that's why you're having such a hard time finding books to read that you enjoy. Plus, I think there's this permeating belief in publishing that readers are basic and all like the same things, but that's another topic for another day.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Thanks Chessie! Good to hear it has your attention. And just so you know, the trilogy could be called "The Three Romances of Ivin Choerkin" LOL. But of course, only one can end happy... (insert dramatic music here).

Not sure how far along you are, but it is certainly dark... although how dark is a matter of reader.

Oh, have you written anything that might appeal to a cowboy romance reader? AKA the Mrs, LOL.

I've been reading Eve of Snows and it's somewhat dark (still in the beginning...reading two books at once, lol). It's reminding me of the Dawnguard main questline in Skyrim when the PC goes down to the High Elf temple ruins with Serana for the very last quest. Basically, I like it.

Dragon, I wanted to come back on here because I've been thinking about this thread and your dilemma.

Before a certain age, I read a lot of fantasy. Sword and Sorcery was my favorite. I never really liked epic fantasy but made an exception for certain stories and authors. At some point though, I stopped caring. Not sure why. I seriously just fell out of love with fantasy, which had been my favorite genre except for historical romance my entire life. I played Dungeons and Dragons with my dad growing up, am STILL to this day into fantasy video games and am considering joining a Pathfinder game in our new town (lol) but I simply cannot read a whole lot of fantasy for some reason. Des' is holding my attention though.

Which leads me to believe that my tastes have shifted dramatically. As a youngster I read the entire series of the Little House books several times over. And I always have had a fondness for Wild West history (a bloody one at that but I still enjoy it). There are some tastes that you never lose, and there are others you just grow out of. I think that, however, for you and me something very interesting is happening: fantasy books need to have certain elements to keep us interested. They need to speak to the part of our tastes that still exist. For me, it's definitely history and romance. If a fantasy story has an element of romance, I'm there. If a fantasy story has a medieval feel with windswept snows and a lot of suffering, I'm there. If it has dragons, I'm there--although this has been tremendously hard for me to find. That Russian movie with the dragon prince though...it makes my heart skip a beat!

What I'm suggesting is that maybe you've grown out of fantasy for the most part, but are still willing to consider it if it has certain elements that draw you in. What are those? What do you really like, what are you crazy about? I think the reason why I ended up writing HR is because, as a wife and mother, relationships and nurturing and love is what speaks to me. I'm just built that way and I love a good romance that will bring me down to my knees and cry (North & South, here's looking at you). But what speaks to YOU, Dragon, in this period of your life? You're about to enter college and start exploring the woman who lies within. So maybe it's not that you don't like anything. I wager all of this has everything to do with your maturing person who cannot hold disbelief with a lot of fantasy these days for xyz reasons but your love for the genre is still there. It just needs to contain something else. Hm?

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Money and visibility. It's really quite that simple.

If you ever publish, you'll understand the whys a lot more. When you, as a writer/author struggling to break into publishing, are constantly rejected by trad OR can't sell books on Amazon because they don't fit within a certain scope of the genre, rejection will push you to write more to market. This doesn't mean basic; it just means writing the things that readers are crazy about. Most readers want the same but different. You, Dragon, are a rarity. For an author trying to make a living at selling their work, they are going to have to market/follow the readers en masse, not the ones who have unique tastes like you. Not dissing here, just trying to help you understand that money talks and that's why you're having such a hard time finding books to read that you enjoy. Plus, I think there's this permeating belief in publishing that readers are basic and all like the same things, but that's another topic for another day.

It seems like a system that would feed itself. Often people like things because that's what they're fed and marketed. Or at least that's my observation. And it's to the publishers' benefit to keep reader interests pretty stable, I guess.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Marketing relies on human nature, it doesn't form it.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

But here's the thing...I'm not even convinced that at least *some* of the things I love are that rare to like? When you start to look at Tumblr, Deviantart (I have, A LOT.) its full of people with awesome ideas, tons of creativity, and thousands and thousands of people liking these concepts and ideas and artworks and prompts that just...don't show up in books. I could pick a Tumblr artist who draws dragons at random with any semi-decent following and they'd have better ideas than the people writing bestselling books who throw a generic, textbook dragon into their novel without bothering much to reinvent. Deviantart people who paint digital landscapes and settings literally just for fun do better worldbuilding than almost every book I've ever read. There are tumblr threads made by random people about every mythical creature, rethinking the concept in really cool ways that authors just don't do. There are research blogs followed by thousands of writers full of the most obscure weapons and invaluable information on how to make their fight scenes accurate. A lot of random nobodies seem meticulous with their research so why aren't the best sellers?

Where are the books? Where can I find them?

 

[Svrtnsse]

But here's the thing...I'm not even convinced that at least *some* of the things I love are that rare to like?

They probably aren't. More likely, they're just not as popular as the things that are most popular.

I'll elaborate, and while this example is pretty outdated (early nineties) I think the principle still applies.

When it comes to music, most of what you hear on the radio and on TV is some kind of pop music. That's not because most people like that, but because it has the largest audience. Surveys showed that about 15% of all people enjoy that kind of music. That's not very many, but for all other genres represented in the survey, the amount of people who enjoyed it was smaller.
Jazz was 10%, heavy metal was 8%, psychedelic folk rock was 2% (I made these numbers up on the spot just to illustrate).

What I'm getting at is that the amount of people who enjoy the mainstream culture isn't that big, but as a group they're bigger than any individual other group. For music, I've found my ways of finding the things I enjoy, but as far as books go I've yet to find a way to weed out what I want from what I'm not interested in. Hopefully I'll crack it soon enough, and I'll get some joy back into reading as well.

Marketing relies on human nature, it doesn't form it.

I'm not sure this is entirely true - but I guess it depends on how you define human nature.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Marketing relies on human nature, it doesn't form it.

My whole life i've had people insist that girls wil naturally like things marketed to girls, and boys will naturally like things marketed to boys. And anyone who disagrees is peddling sjw bullshit, or something.

Have had people insist that girls naturally like dolls, that they naturally want to dress up in pretty clothes, that they naturally like makeup, that they "naturally" care about this and enjoy that. I apparently am not a girl. People tend to assume that i'll eventually get into things like sticking icky substances on my face to make it look slightly different. I'm 18 now; its a little late.

I'm honestly pretty suspicious of the idea that marketing always just follows what people "naturally" like. I've never been able to like what other people like, ever. I don't think my interests are unique. I've met girls with the same feelings and interests that I have, but they have always slowly eroded into a facsimile of What a Teenage Girl Is, or else they are able to suppress/turn off those interests to talk about makeup and nail art. I know, though, that i'm utterly blind to peer pressure and mob mentality (probably Aspergers). I'm not unique, i'm just not affected by the aggressive socialization of teenage girls to behave in a really specific way.

So yeah, unless i am just an irredeemable oddity, i have to be suspicious of the assumption that what people like is always just their nature, unadulterated and pure. I've seen people's natural interests squished out of them over time again and again. It's actually been really upsetting. Good God have to tried to like makeup but it feels so gross and it's creepy when my face doesn't look exactly like my face.

 

[Svrtnsse]

My whole life i've had people insist that girls wil naturally like things marketed to girls, and boys will naturally like things marketed to boys. And anyone who disagrees is peddling sjw bullshit, or something.

I think it's safe to say that we're all shaped by the expectations placed upon us. The world at large, through marketing and other means, places different expectations on men and women, as well as on people of different age groups or ethnicities. It shapes who we are. It will have more impact on some people, and less impact on others.

 

[Tom]

My whole life i've had people insist that girls wil naturally like things marketed to girls, and boys will naturally like things marketed to boys. And anyone who disagrees is peddling sjw bullshit, or something.

Have had people insist that girls naturally like dolls, that they naturally want to dress up in pretty clothes, that they naturally like makeup, that they "naturally" care about this and enjoy that. I apparently am not a girl. People tend to assume that i'll eventually get into things like sticking icky substances on my face to make it look slightly different. I'm 18 now; its a little late.

I'm honestly pretty suspicious of the idea that marketing always just follows what people "naturally" like. I've never been able to like what other people like, ever. I don't think my interests are unique. I've met girls with the same feelings and interests that I have, but they have always slowly eroded into a facsimile of What a Teenage Girl Is, or else they are able to suppress/turn off those interests to talk about makeup and nail art. I know, though, that i'm utterly blind to peer pressure and mob mentality (probably Aspergers). I'm not unique, i'm just not affected by the aggressive socialization of teenage girls to behave in a really specific way.

So yeah, unless i am just an irredeemable oddity, i have to be suspicious of the assumption that what people like is always just their nature, unadulterated and pure. I've seen people's natural interests squished out of them over time again and again. It's actually been really upsetting. Good God have to tried to like makeup but it feels so gross and it's creepy when my face doesn't look exactly like my face.

This speaks to me so much. As a trans guy, I was definitely pressured as a child and teen into liking certain things that girls were supposed to like. Because I wasn't a girl, I pushed back against it and tried to embrace things that boys were supposed to like. It's only now that I've been secure in my identity for a while that I've started to break down my perceptions of what I was "supposed" to like and what I actually like. There were some "girly" interests that appealed to me, but because they were marketed mainly toward girls it felt wrong for me to like them. I knew I was a boy even when no one else treated me like I was one, and I felt that to be recognized as a boy I would have to like what the world told me boys liked. It's only now that I'm looking back at how this affected me. I'm much happier now, liking things simply because *I* like them. I try not to assign gender to my interests for this reason.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Somehow this moved to gender and squishing people... I hear mammograms are good for that... when the market sees an audience it will play to it. The best in marketing play to human nature, and I guarantee, human nature exists whether you like it or not, and one part of human nature is to like a certain thing and stick with it... say, medieval European fantasy with dragons with wings. Or, snot-snoed little shits waving a wand and calling themselves a wizard... or pathetic sparkly vampires... what is trendy catches on, and imprints in the psyche, and because people want to relive that experience, more books of that type or created. But, comparing visual medium to the written word is weak. A writer can't do what an artist does, and right back at the artist.

You this is China too... Monkey-movies are remade over and over and there are lots of knock-offs.

How many alien bar scenes showed up after Star Wars?

It is in human nature to try to find what you enjoy, just like you are doing, and to get aggravated when not finding it. That is hardly a reason to disparage other folks who have found what they like, and who are driving the market.

So much of the novel's experience is brought to the house by the reader. Brandon Sanderson once mentioned that one book or series was populated by people of asian appearance, but he doubted anyone reading knew that, because he didn't bother to mention it.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Somehow this moved to gender and squishing people...

It's probably one of the more obvious examples of how marketing shapes human behaviour and attitudes.

 

[Chessie2]

But here's the thing...I'm not even convinced that at least *some* of the things I love are that rare to like? When you start to look at Tumblr, Deviantart (I have, A LOT.) its full of people with awesome ideas, tons of creativity, and thousands and thousands of people liking these concepts and ideas and artworks and prompts that just...don't show up in books. I could pick a Tumblr artist who draws dragons at random with any semi-decent following and they'd have better ideas than the people writing bestselling books who throw a generic, textbook dragon into their novel without bothering much to reinvent. Deviantart people who paint digital landscapes and settings literally just for fun do better worldbuilding than almost every book I've ever read. There are tumblr threads made by random people about every mythical creature, rethinking the concept in really cool ways that authors just don't do. There are research blogs followed by thousands of writers full of the most obscure weapons and invaluable information on how to make their fight scenes accurate. A lot of random nobodies seem meticulous with their research so why aren't the best sellers?

Where are the books? Where can I find them?

No, I totally feel you. The books you want to read are out there, just not on the popular Amazon or Goodreads lists is all. Like some of us have mentioned on here, give Indie books a shot. When you browse on Amazon, if you scroll down to the sold by, an Indie book will say "Amazon Digital Services LLC". That's how you know. Now, I don't know the kind of library you have in your area or thrift stores, but I've been finding some good reads lately by going back to the old school. Maybe give that a try? Or just branch out and explore more Steampunk, scific, etc. Whatever you do don't stop reading. Like, I sympathize because I have the same problem and it sucks when you want to read fantasy and can't find anything worth a darn. Sigh.

@Des: I don't write about cowboys, just cowboy country. I have a mail-order bride bounty hunting series coming in August so if your wife likes historical romance then yeah, for sure recommend me, lol.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Cowboy country might just work... horses, ya know... mail-order bride bounty hunter series... umm, huh, not sure I can wrap my head around that one, LOL. But maybe she can.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Somehow this moved to gender and squishing people... I hear mammograms are good for that... when the market sees an audience it will play to it. The best in marketing play to human nature, and I guarantee, human nature exists whether you like it or not, and one part of human nature is to like a certain thing and stick with it... say, medieval European fantasy with dragons with wings. Or, snot-snoed little shits waving a wand and calling themselves a wizard... or pathetic sparkly vampires... what is trendy catches on, and imprints in the psyche, and because people want to relive that experience, more books of that type or created. But, comparing visual medium to the written word is weak. A writer can't do what an artist does, and right back at the artist.

You this is China too... Monkey-movies are remade over and over and there are lots of knock-offs.

How many alien bar scenes showed up after Star Wars?

It is in human nature to try to find what you enjoy, just like you are doing, and to get aggravated when not finding it. That is hardly a reason to disparage other folks who have found what they like, and who are driving the market.

So much of the novel's experience is brought to the house by the reader. Brandon Sanderson once mentioned that one book or series was populated by people of asian appearance, but he doubted anyone reading knew that, because he didn't bother to mention it.

I didn't deny the existence of human nature. I just said that often, people like what they've been conditioned to like as well as what they naturally like supposedly. Making a joke about boobs doesn't refute my point.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This speaks to me so much. As a trans guy, I was definitely pressured as a child and teen into liking certain things that girls were supposed to like. Because I wasn't a girl, I pushed back against it and tried to embrace things that boys were supposed to like. It's only now that I've been secure in my identity for a while that I've started to break down my perceptions of what I was "supposed" to like and what I actually like. There were some "girly" interests that appealed to me, but because they were marketed mainly toward girls it felt wrong for me to like them. I knew I was a boy even when no one else treated me like I was one, and I felt that to be recognized as a boy I would have to like what the world told me boys liked. It's only now that I'm looking back at how this affected me. I'm much happier now, liking things simply because *I* like them. I try not to assign gender to my interests for this reason.

I honestly don't see why interests have to be gendered at all. What I see in everyday life is people of all genders having interests as diverse as the people themselves, and yet having to emphasize certain interests and hide others to fit in with a status quo that originates from who knows where. I'm a straight, cisgender female and people have still assumed I am nonbinary, or a lesbian/bisexual, because I cut my hair short and don't "act" the right way. ????? Strange, this society we live in, eh?

I am really bad at figuring out what I am "supposed" to like and do and act like. As a result I don't fit in very well anywhere. There aren't any spaces for people like me because I am not a type of person, I'm just...me. Idk man.

 

[Tom]

I honestly don't see why interests have to be gendered at all. What I see in everyday life is people of all genders having interests as diverse as the people themselves, and yet having to emphasize certain interests and hide others to fit in with a status quo that originates from who knows where. I'm a straight, cisgender female and people have still assumed I am nonbinary, or a lesbian/bisexual, because I cut my hair short and don't "act" the right way. ????? Strange, this society we live in, eh?

I am really bad at figuring out what I am "supposed" to like and do and act like. As a result I don't fit in very well anywhere. There aren't any spaces for people like me because I am not a type of person, I'm just...me. Idk man.

I get you. Ever since I came out and started transitioning socially I've had people ask "Are you SURE you're a man? You're still interested in [stereotypically feminine thing]". I usually just shrug it off, but it's frustrating. Interests are interests. People are people. Marketing tries to put us in boxes, but ultimately a human being is just too messy and multifaceted to be reduced to a category.

 

[pmmg]

I didn't deny the existence of human nature. I just said that often, people like what they've been conditioned to like as well as what they naturally like supposedly. Making a joke about boobs doesn't refute my point.

I had to read through this several time to see how we got here. I think there is some disconnect between the points being raised and replies about them. I am not sure anything was meant to refute any of the points above. It seems the question is, with all the varied alternate types of fantasy I see on Deviant Art and tumbler, why am I not seeing it in more main stream publications, and the answer given is it is not as marketable.

Could be. I am sure marketers have their data sets they rely upon, and when they find a golden goose, they don't stop taking its eggs. Bringing in something else is risky... why go with risky when tried and true is the golden goose? But then, sometimes risk has great rewards... but most often, it doesn't.

If what you have is something they must take risks to do, particularly if they already have a tried and true method, you've got an uphill battle breaking through. But you can break through, you just have to decide that is what you want and then put your efforts behind it no matter the obstacles. Easier said than done.

Why are you not finding it, cause non-traditional dragons are still in the experimental portion of the market. Its out there to be sure, but I would suggest using non-traditional markets to find it. Chessie has some suggestions. When you find them, treasure them more. Maybe one day they will be more in the main stream. Maybe you can be the one who puts it there.

A comment about the things we see on deviant art and tumbler, I suspect those are themselves experimental venues, and the art found there is also not exactly main stream either. Further, a picture paints a thousand words, right? Well really it paints an endless number of words. I think it is a little easier to show all the ways this dragon has a much different look and feel than a traditional one in a visual art form than one of the mind and imagination. I am not sure they match up well either.