Magitech

[D. Gray Warrior]

I love the concept of magitech, but I think that oftentimes, it's poorly executed. Usually, it looks either like IRL tech but handwaved with "it runs on magic," or it's some sci fi concept with magical jargon imposed over it. It's not an android, it's a "metal golem."


I want actual magitech: Magic has revolutionized society, but the technology of the world still looks and works differently from our own world.

One of my ideas to accomplish this is that magitech devices cannot work on their own. They must have a wielder who is able to channel their mana into the device and activate the spell embedded in it. Thus, devices cannot cast spells on their own.

Some of the tech seem obvious. Instead of FaceTime, they can just a magic mirror to communicate. Or instead of cellphones, they speak into magic crystals.


There's also the option of having technology powered by an elemental or familiar, but if they are sentient, then that would carry some unfortunate implications.

What are your thoughts on magitech?

 

[ThinkerX]

I have something fairly close to this in my 'Empire' books - but it is not of human origin.

Tens of thousands of years ago, the ancient aliens ventured out into the galaxy. These aliens were not humanoid, having followed a different evolutionary path. Part of that path granted them what we would term innate psionic abilities. To them, this was normal, not extraordinary. As such, much of their technology required psionic power to use. Much of this was what we would term computer tech - the current equivalent being where one operates a computer by 'thinking at it.' This was also employed in medical equipment that tapped the body's energies for healing and scanning over long distances.


Encounters with Lovecraftian entities forced the aliens to assume a lower profile. This involved terraforming previously 'dead' worlds and relocating their civilization to these planets. Later, they imported populations of primitive races they'd encountered, including humans, as servitors, experimental subjects, and 'pets.' Some thousands of years later, their numbers declined. Many of their subject races abandoned the cities or were formed into vassal states dedicated to agriculture or light industry. Needing to fill vital technical positions, the aliens genetically modified select humans and others, granting them vastly increased psionic abilities. A few thousand years later, another Lovecraftian incursion collapsed the alien civilization - but their subject races remained. Those with enhanced psi became wizards.

 

[JBCrowson]

One of the branches of magic in my world is geomancy. One geomancer invents a magical stone tablet that needs a geomancer to operate. The device uses geomancy to rearrange the crystals with the stone to store information and display the stored data as embossed writing later. Is that the kind of thing you had in mind?

 

[Queshire]

Sure, there's lots of magitech in my setting, but it tends to be the sci fi tech style mentioned.

 

[skip.knox]

>Instead of FaceTime, they can just a magic mirror to communicate. Or instead of cellphones, they speak into magic crystals.
>like IRL tech but handwaved with "it runs on magic,"

The examples you give in the one sentence sound very much like what you're objecting to in the second. That's the easiest course, for sure.

Another approach is possible. Start with the magic. Forget the tech. What magic can happen in your world? Is there, I dunno, plant magic? OK, of what sort? Can a wizard make things grow faster or bigger than any possibility of doing so with fertilizers or even with gene manipulation?

OK, so what then? Can a wizard make a wheat crop spring up overnight? OK, can that happen without seeds? No? So someone still has to sow the seeds, then have a wizard at hand. And someone still needs to harvest the crop. Does sowing and harvesting remain at the general tech level, whatever that is? No need to add magic there, though you could. Instant crop is going to have implications for costs, labor force, and even taxes.

There could be crystal balls, but maybe they only see into the future, not across distances. Or, like the Palantir, they are tightly restricted to those who have them and have the ability to use them. They aren't like phones.

IOW, start from the magic end and see where it goes, and don't try to make it achieve any specific tech. Along the way, it would be interesting to see what tech innovations the magic might necessitate. The wizard can grow an immense tree, but how do you cut it down? How does that change sawmills? Transport?

 

[Finchbearer]

As you say it’s usually a crossover between sci-fi and fantasy, but you could apply the definition to anything that is considered technology. Flint napping is one of the oldest technologies, or maybe the oldest. Make an arrowhead magical and you have ‘magitech’. How far are you willing to take the term technology? Something like a magic mirror feels archaic, much like how people thought of reflective surfaces and when mirrors actually were invented, it was like magic to those who witnessed those things for the first time. Something like scrying could be viewed as magictech in the sense that you describe, but it would have only been described as witchcraft or sorcery, or indeed magic on its own.

I quite like writing dystopia’s set in the future where there is low-tech, or lower-tech than we have today. Say it’s like the 1980’s but set 100 years in the future from now. There is a magic to the idea that technology has devolved.

 

[Prince of Spires]

There's always "any sufficiently advanced technology will look like magic". Often the only difference is the techno-babble attached to it. Call it a warp drive powered by antimatter (or whatever) and it's science. Call it a warp drive powered by the force, and it's magic.

I agree with skip.knox that you probably want to start with the magic (if you want to build a system out of it). What are the capabilities and limitations of your magic? Once you have that, see what you can and can't do with your magic in terms of magi-tech.

Also, make sure to think though how it would affect society. Long distance communication completley changed the world in more ways that "it's plot convenient that character A and B can talk to each other." I find that most writers stop too soon with this. Technology (even if it's magic) has an immense impact on people's lives. Trains (and later cars) completely changed the way we view the world. Living even 20km from where you work was a completely ridiculous idea, and travelling abroad to go on a week long holiday was unheard of. And that's not to mention things like warfare.

As a sidenote, I like how Terry Pratchett did magitech. He had plenty of technology, and always found an in-world way to make it work. Then again, I liked most things Terry Pratchett did, so there's that.

 

[Queshire]

I dunno. In my experience when you start with magic then what you end up with just looks like more magic.

The Cradle series by Will Wight has stuff like this. A messenger construct looks like a glowing butterfly that carries your message to the recipient. Dream Tablets hold memories that people can experience and range in use from passing down techniques to watching a tournament. Thousand Mile Clouds carry things through the sky and range from carrying a single person to letting ships sail through the sky or even having flying houses on an island of cloud.

There isn't a lot we can achieve in real life that they can't achieve in the setting between techniques and constructs, but the lot of it just feels like more magic.

 

[pmmg]

Or instead of cellphones, they speak into magic crystals.

Oddly enough, its vibrating crystals in those devices that makes them work.... so, we do kind of speak into crystals.

I dont know, others have probably already said, magic is very similar to tech. Its just one gets a explanation and the other doesn't. If I say the fuel for things is mana, and not electrons, how much is really all that different?

I would also suppose that any world that had sufficient access to magic, might never get around to discovering electricity and vibrating atoms. Why would they? there is no need. I suppose, in an odd way, if there is both magic and technology, its the technology I will most question, and want to be explained. Why did so and so invent a gun, when he could have just used magic missiles?

If you make it such that a user is needed to make things work, you are precluding things like magic swords and magic rings.

My thoughts on magictech are that its a fine place to start in making a world to put stories in.

 

[skip.knox]

Yes, this is why I suggested the bit about harvests. There are so many aspects of life that doesn't need to relate to tech. If there is the ability to make portals, for example, then where's the need for cars, steam-powered or otherwise? There are ways to answer that, but *starting* with the portals and then wondering how an economy would function opens more interesting avenues. Then ask how it might affect politics, war, social customs, and so on.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I would also suppose that any world that had sufficient access to magic, might never get around to discovering electricity and vibrating atoms. Why would they? there is no need.

I personally think it would play out much the same way as in the real world to be honest. There are a lot of discoveries we had no need for at the time, and we still made them.

Just think of electricity. Without a use for electricity, why would anyone think of discovering it? The answer is simple human curiosity. When we discovered electricity, there was no use for it at all. No one could even forsee a use for it. People didn't invent electricity imagining smartphones or even lightbulbs. The same can be said for a lot of stuff. We have no need for knowing about gravitational waves. Quantum mechanics had no practical use when it was discovered. Neither did Newton's laws or evolution.

Humans like knowing how stuff works. We're naturally curious.

The only thing that could change is that creating applications for said technology might go slower. If you discovered semi-conductors and developed a computer, it might remain a curiosity for longer than it did in our world if you could achieve the same thing with magic. However, there can still come a point where doing it with a machine might be cheaper and faster than doing it yourself. After all, most things we do with machines we could do without them. They just cost more time and effort to do.

 

[pmmg]

I do think it would be discovered, I just think it would be a lot longer in coming.

Jonny, what are you doing?

I am making a thing that will glow with light when I connect these two wire...should take about six moinths.

Dude, I can do that just by snapping my fingers, *snap* Now lets go play pokemon.

No need.

 

[LostName]

I love the concept of magitech, but I think that oftentimes, it's poorly executed. Usually, it looks either like IRL tech but handwaved with "it runs on magic," or it's some sci fi concept with magical jargon imposed over it. It's not an android, it's a "metal golem."


I want actual magitech: Magic has revolutionized society, but the technology of the world still looks and works differently from our own world.

One of my ideas to accomplish this is that magitech devices cannot work on their own. They must have a wielder who is able to channel their mana into the device and activate the spell embedded in it. Thus, devices cannot cast spells on their own.

Some of the tech seem obvious. Instead of FaceTime, they can just a magic mirror to communicate. Or instead of cellphones, they speak into magic crystals.


There's also the option of having technology powered by an elemental or familiar, but if they are sentient, then that would carry some unfortunate implications.

What are your thoughts on magitech?

Agreed. E.g. in Yuushibu it's basically modern Japan but people have to use appliances like washing machines with their own magic or something and it's really boring.
Though it's pretty fun in Strike the Blood because there magic is mostly used for augmenting science, e.g. some sci fi mecha that shoots missiles enhanced with magic and has magic barriers or such.

But overall it's kinda boring because it's the same old. Though it does blend together when it gets more futuristic, e.g. I just created a new setting and
I have no idea how I'd use genetic engineering or advanced computer systems that work fundamentally different from science based tech and if I make the the kind of enemy creatures's abilities magic it becomes mundane but if if the use magitech it just becomes regular sci fi with a different power source, e.g. regeneration from scratch or using communication without technology, with magic it's just boring telepathy, with magitech it's some kind of radio or even quantum entanglement but there is no space to insert magic anymore other than as a source of power.

I guess the sweet spot is below that from industrial revolution level tech to I dunno, Minority Report or something where you can have cool magitech that is used for similar things as real life / sci fi technology but works in a fundamentally different way to arrive at a similar destination.

The best way to go about it probably to think about some cool tech and its purpose, then about ways how magitech can work that deliberately gets there or somewhere close in a roundabout way that avoids the easy, science based approach.

Of course then there is actual real science, unless your fantasy world has fundamentally different laws of physics (that could be very interesting tbh, the fantasy version of Greg Egan and tbh I'm trying to get there but haven't found a way to make it work in a satisfying way yet) so the more advanced a society gets the more likely that they know about real science and while an abundance of magic to create magitech might well doom their real science to the fringes and it might lag centuries or even millennia behind their magitech (of course starting with renaissance technology, hard to imagine no one ever invented a wheel, etc.), it's unlikely that real science does not at all apply to magitech, which in turn dictates that to some extent magitech has to take real science into account and if people know about e.g. how levers work, they would definitely not just ignore that knowledge and use clunky as hell magitech that doesn't make use it of but rather magitech that does use it to become more efficient.


But there can be exceptions, the more of which you get the further advanced the magitech gets because e.g. why bother using electricity when using magitech working on fundamentally different principles is very easy and because of this the study of electricity is stuck at a point of what irl was the 17th or 18th century while magitech has flying cars, sentient "computers" and whatnot and it all has no need or use for electricity?

I use magitech a lot in my settings but tbh besides on major setting with it I haven't used that many truly interesting applications of magitech because in settings with abundant magic either it's very limited and not suited for magitech (e.g. something akin to Knights Radiant but without the spren tech so e.g. to heat up food or a room a rare magic user would have to do that so it's not actually viable) or I quickly get into sci fi with a fantasy twist territory like spaceships, though I've had some cool ideas like squeezing space in 4 dimensions with magic after angling the ship into the right direction to shoot the ship into that direction.

 

[JBCrowson]

I find this interface between magic and science really interesting. In my world I have different forms of magic, one of which is elemental, with rock as one of those elements. Its practitioners can manipulate the crystal structures of rocks so as to produce clean fracture lines, or fuse rocks together at the ion lattice level. My lightning mages are essentially human capacitors, limited by how often they can find a thunderstorm to recharge them (until someone shows them a Van de Graaf generator).

 

[skip.knox]

What I find interesting in all such constructions is this: how does one tell the difference? (acks to A.C. Clarke)

In almost all the stories I read, everyone seems to be able to tell the difference between what is magic and what isn't. But I look at the real world around me, in our supposedly enlightened and educated age, and there are tons of people who confuse the two--what is natural and what is supernatural. In an earlier age, or in a fantasy setting, it seems to me the whole business would be very much fuzzier. And therein lies many opportunities for storytelling.

 

[Prince of Spires]

how does one tell the difference

There is none. Or at least, from a user's perspective it matters little.

To give a real world example. I live in the Netherlands, where there are lots of e-bikes. One of the things you can do with them is to mess with the software to make it so that you don't have to pedal yourself (no, this isn't legal, since you're turning a bike into a scooter, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do so).

As a result of this, two weeks ago when I was biking down the road I was overtaken by someone on an electric bike, who had raised his legs and the bike was pedaling itself. It could have been an image straight out of Harry Potter, where the bike would have been powered by magic. Here it was just electricity (at least, I assume so).

I think the main difference between magic and science is that magic tends to break the conservation of energy rules. Nothing is powering the magic in Harry Potter or the Force or the One Ring.

 

[LostName]

There is none. Or at least, from a user's perspective it matters little.

To give a real world example. I live in the Netherlands, where there are lots of e-bikes. One of the things you can do with them is to mess with the software to make it so that you don't have to pedal yourself (no, this isn't legal, since you're turning a bike into a scooter, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do so).

As a result of this, two weeks ago when I was biking down the road I was overtaken by someone on an electric bike, who had raised his legs and the bike was pedaling itself. It could have been an image straight out of Harry Potter, where the bike would have been powered by magic. Here it was just electricity (at least, I assume so).

I think the main difference between magic and science is that magic tends to break the conservation of energy rules. Nothing is powering the magic in Harry Potter or the Force or the One Ring.

The difference is mostly in how it works, to characters seeing the (magi)tech it may no matter if they don't know / care about how it works but for the plot and setting it is very important.

E.g. in said Yuushibu if you can't infuse magic into magic appliances and live alone you just can't live like someone in the 20th-21st century and use them, you either have to move to a place where others infuse devices for you or you have to live like someone irl today who has no electricity at all and no electronic devices can be turned on.

Likewise if people are needed to charge magic batteries (like in one of my settings) than producing them is far slower and far more expensive than if you do it with science and can mass produce and charge them for fractions of a cent on the dollar, not having to pay a mage who could become a magic phone operator or caravan guard instead a high enough salary or wage they are willing to charge your magic batteries.

...although I'm not sure yet if that is how it works exactly in this setting cause it has magitech similar to the early industrial revolution.

 

[Queshire]

The distinction between magic & tech exists in the mind of the audience. Sure, they might not be able to give you a precise definition of what makes something one rather than the other, but the fact that stories have largely treated them as two different things for the last however many decades means people think of them as two different things.

That's important because as writers we can take advantage of those preconceptions.

Sometimes taking advantage can be hinting that the guy on the E-bike is secretly a reader or leaving clues that lets eagle eyed readers realize that the Cursed Ruins of Death that Thogg the Barbarian has to deal with are actual the remains of a blasted city destroyed by an atomic bomb.

That's not the only use though. When a book features the heir of one of the most powerful corporations in galactic space who is also a wizard that shit is weird enough that it can get readers wondering where they're going with this.

 

[LostName]

lol, true. If the setting is not clear cut about whether it's scifi ore fantasy or even both (e.g. Outlaw Star, space opera with taoist magic of sorts) than the true nature of something can have important implications.

 

[skip.knox]

What gets to me is when the character inside the story seem to be perfectly clear in where the line lies between natural and supernatural. Even more, when all the characters in the world appear to agree on where the line is drawn. It's my experience that we humans vary wildly in where we believe the line is drawn.

As Queshire says, having different people differently perceive what is magic and what is normal can provide rich ground for story telling. In my own world of Altearth, for example, gnomes make extremely clever devices. Mostly small, mostly as diversions rather than as tools for work, but some outsiders regard some of the things they make as having been made by magic, or are operated by magic. Gnomes themselves assert they have no magic, that it is a matter of craft. In fact, there are many lines drawn and there are varying vocabularies associated with them. Some speak of craft, others magic, others call it art, still others refer to prayer, incantations, skills, and so on. Similarly, there are numerous forms of "magicians" in the world. No need for absolute clarity or even absolute consistency.