Multiple POV story - Lack of female leads

[Mythopoet]

They don't.

Same way I don't think social responsibility means you have to conform to other people's view on race.

You are more than welcome to believe that society treats women and men equally, or believe that society treats members of different racial groups equally.

But that does not make your belief a reality, nor does it abrogate either society's or the individual's responsibility to help solve such problems.

First, I never said I think men and women are treated equally at this time. I don't think anyone has. So don't put beliefs in people's mouths.

Second, every single time this topic comes up there are numerous posters who argue vehemently against other posters on the basis that there is disagreement between them when it comes to opinions and beliefs about gender. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Certain individuals cannot tolerate that other individuals see things differently. No matter what the original subject of the thread was about it devolves into a verbal brawl about the posters' personal beliefs, some attacking and some defending. And no good ever comes of it.

These threads really need to stop getting so out of hand. Some people around here need to just sit back, calm down and accept that some other people don't have the same opinions as them. The last time I checked we were all free to believe that we believe and think what we think and write what we write without being attacked by an angry mob seemingly determined to hammer us over the head with our wrongness.

This subject is never going to be resolved here, it goes too deep. It's too political for nice conversation. I suggest that threads that veer off into discussions about gender that do not have anything to do specifically with how to deal with it in an actual piece of writing should be closed.

 

[Gryphos]

The last time I checked we were all free to believe that we believe and think what we think and write what we write without being attacked by an angry mob seemingly determined to hammer us over the head with our wrongness.

It's called criticism, and nothing and no one is exempt from it, and they cannot use the word 'opinion' as some kind of all-purpose shield. Opinions can be questioned and criticised, and anyone who cannot defend their opinion should wonder why they have that opinion in the first place.

 

[Russ]

First, I never said I think men and women are treated equally at this time. I don't think anyone has. So don't put beliefs in people's mouths.

Second, every single time this topic comes up there are numerous posters who argue vehemently against other posters on the basis that there is disagreement between them when it comes to opinions and beliefs about gender. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Certain individuals cannot tolerate that other individuals see things differently. No matter what the original subject of the thread was about it devolves into a verbal brawl about the posters' personal beliefs, some attacking and some defending. And no good ever comes of it.

These threads really need to stop getting so out of hand. Some people around here need to just sit back, calm down and accept that some other people don't have the same opinions as them. The last time I checked we were all free to believe that we believe and think what we think and write what we write without being attacked by an angry mob seemingly determined to hammer us over the head with our wrongness.

This subject is never going to be resolved here, it goes too deep. It's too political for nice conversation. I suggest that threads that veer off into discussions about gender that do not have anything to do specifically with how to deal with it in an actual piece of writing should be closed.

I am surprised to see that you suggest we cannot discuss this topic in a writing context considering just how vehemently you post on the issue yourself.

 

[Jabrosky]

This subject is never going to be resolved here, it goes too deep. It's too political for nice conversation. I suggest that threads that veer off into discussions about gender that do not have anything to do specifically with how to deal with it in an actual piece of writing should be closed.

I'd be lying if I said I was never one of the first to rush into diversity threads like this, but today even I'm getting tired of beating such a fossilized horse. Furthermore, since I've already too many temporary bans on this website, I understand I don't have much more heat to take before I lash out and end up earning a permanent exile from our community. And now that at least one poster has thrown a not-so-subtle barb at my specific character and passions, my heat-proof armor is wearing even thinner.

So yeah, a moratorium on rambling diversity threads would be all right with me.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

This subject is never going to be resolved here, it goes too deep. It's too political for nice conversation. I suggest that threads that veer off into discussions about gender that do not have anything to do specifically with how to deal with it in an actual piece of writing should be closed.

Here's the thing.... The issue doesn't have to be resolved. The discussion can persuade, or not, or develop different thinking over time through exposure to differences.

If you look back a couple of years into similar threads, you will notice a shift in the way I used to think about this very topic.

I've learned a lot from this community BECAUSE of the differences amongst our members. Over time, I've changed opinions on some issues like diversity inclusion, while others remain the same. The exposure I've been presented with here has made me a better writer. I'm thankful.

Societal issues like gender do have a place in writing discussion. As long as members do not personally attack or offend, there's no problem with discussion, even passionate ones.

The key is to keep an open mind.

If we can't at least consider the other side of the argument (both sides) then why are we in the argument at all? It also not very persuasive if we're not ourselves willing to be persuaded, or at least, attempt to understand.

 

[Devor]

It's called criticism, and nothing and no one is exempt from it, and they cannot use the word 'opinion' as some kind of all-purpose shield. Opinions can be questioned and criticised, and anyone who cannot defend their opinion should wonder why they have that opinion in the first place.

I'm fairly sure that a community which compels people to "defend" their positions at every turn cannot be called anything but hostile.

 

[Tom]

And now that at least one poster has thrown a not-so-subtle barb at my specific character and passions, my heat-proof armor is wearing even thinner.

So yeah, a moratorium on rambling diversity threads would be all right with me.

Firstly, perhaps the "barb" might clue you in that you're doing something wrong? Instead of complaining about criticism, you might want to take a step back and evaluate what you're being criticized for. It may be a revelation.

Secondly, if we never talk about something, never confront it head-on, how is that going to help us in the long run? Discussing diversity (even if the conversations do get a bit snarly here and there) is how diversity is promoted. The best way to kill something is to ignore it, after all.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

This is veering near personal attack, Scribes, which is not condoned.

If you want to discuss issues like the sexualization of minority women, please do so in a way that isn't pointed toward specific members.

 

[Gryphos]

I'm fairly sure that a community which compels people to "defend" their positions at every turn cannot be called anything but hostile.

As opposed to what, people never having their opinions questioned and thus nothing ever being learned? If hostility is asking someone why they think something, and then explaining why you disagree, then by all means call me hostile.

 

[Mythopoet]

If hostility is asking someone why they think something, and then explaining why you disagree, then by all means call me hostile.

This is not even close to what goes down in these threads. It may start out as a calm rational discussion, but that doesn't last long. People always end up getting very, very angry and using very harsh language. I'm not claiming that I'm exempt. I know I have a tendency to get heated when I'm passionate about a subject. A lot of people do become hostile in these threads. They do use very barbed language. They do judge each other. I've participated in it and watched it happen.

If these discussions could stall calm and rational I would be all for them. But it appears to me that sooner rather than later they just end up making the participants angry.

 

[ArenRax]

At my library, when I look for a fantasy novel or just fiction, there are lots of female leads.

idk about fantasy though.

 

[Devor]

If hostility is asking someone why they think something, and then explaining why you disagree, then by all means call me hostile.

Are people interested in asking? I don't get the impression that's what's happening here.

 

[Mindfire]

This is not even close to what goes down in these threads. It may start out as a calm rational discussion, but that doesn't last long. People always end up getting very, very angry and using very harsh language.

If you think people here get hostile, please stay away from the rest of the internet. For your own safety. Passions may flare occasionally here, but Mythic Scribes is a veritable bastion of civility, a paragon even.

 

[Devor]

If you think people here get hostile, please stay away from the rest of the internet. For your own safety. Passions may flare occasionally here, but Mythic Scribes is a veritable bastion of civility, a paragon even.

That is quite true - and I apologize if my last two posts made it look that I thought otherwise. That's not where I wanted to take my remarks.

I'm just a little leery of seeing anybody singled out while they're mostly behaving. That seems to venture into hostility, which we don't want here, whatever the opinions in question might be.

 

[Russ]

Part of the problem is that people like to speak from impressions which are coloured from their worldview that turn out to be factually wrong, and don't like being told that they are factually wrong.

But the issue is being discussed in many places right now. That would include such tiny little places like the Atlantic, or the New Statesman.

It's Frustratingly Rare to Find a Novel About Women That's Not About Love — The Atlantic

I hate Strong Female Characters

Or even on the Tor.com website.

Writing Women Characters as Human Beings | Tor.com

Oh No, She Didn’t: The Strong Female Character, Deconstructed | Tor.com

Historically Authentic Sexism in Fantasy. Let’s Unpack That. | Tor.com

You know like Tor.


Mark Laurence took some time to address it as well and make some very interesting points:

http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.ca/2014/12/the-big-three-oh-oh-oh-oh.html

As do his detractors:

http://feministfiction.com/2015/01/05/yet-more-on-female-characters-in-fantasy/

Surely if the topic is of interest and value to the wider publishing/writing/reading world, it can be dealt with here?

 

[Tom]

Thank you for all those resources.

 

[Velka]

Many parts of this thread remind me of Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech, which is basically summed up by:

"So, why do you write these strong female characters?"

"Because you’re still asking me that question."

 

[Tom]

Ha, I love that. One of my friends actually asked me that question once. I replied, "Because women can be complex characters too."

 

[Fyle]

Part of the problem is that people like to speak from impressions which are coloured from their worldview that turn out to be factually wrong, and don't like being told that they are factually wrong.

But the issue is being discussed in many places right now. That would include such tiny little places like the Atlantic, or the New Statesman.

There is nothing to be factually wrong about here. The thread at heart is about changing an exsisting male character to a female.

It is factual correct that men and women do have differences - even if the only place we agree is physically, that still makes us different. Plus, physical differences factually come along with side effects that alter mood.

This thread is not about representation of female characters in fantasy. It is about giving and exsisting character a sex change. What you get at Russ, is for Chit Chat.

 

[cupiscent]

Whatever may be said of movies, I am pretty sure there are whole shelves stuffed with fiction written by and for women, especially in certain genres.

It's not just important for women to have stories about women. It's important for everyone to have stories about women. That's how we know they're people too.