Pleasing Everyone

[Twook00]

If you are going to be a "professional" at any thing, you have to develop the skill to produce quality work product on your own, and that necessarily entails the skill to recognize whether what you have is a quality product or not.

How is an author to know when he has reached a level where he can objectively evaluate the quality of his work?

I've been struggling with this for a while now. At what point do you know that you are a professional writer capable of producing professional grade work? At what point can you trust yourself over a beta-reader, editor or publisher?

At what point, and this is a big one for me, do you stop seeking validation and just write something from beginning to end without going "Is this crap? Am I wasting my time? Should I get feedback on this scene?"

 

[Steerpike]

I've been struggling with this for a while now. At what point do you know that you are a professional writer capable of producing professional grade work? At what point can you trust yourself over a beta-reader, editor or publisher?

At what point, and this is a big one for me, do you stop seeking validation and just write something from beginning to end without going "Is this crap? Am I wasting my time? Should I get feedback on this scene?"

Yes, you and BWFoster both hit on it, and there's the rub, of course.

I think you can make a similar analogy to any profession. I know you can make it in law, and it applied when I was working as a research scientist as well. BWFoster can chime in about engineering. There is a point when you are starting where you have a level of uncertainty, and you need another set of eyes on what you're doing. In your professional growth, you have to develop past that. We can probably all think of people we've known in work environments who have thought they were there, but weren't as capable as they believed. I don't know the answer as to how you can tell when you're there. It takes experience, but how much experience will differ from person to person. At some point, you just have to say "OK, I'm here" and proceed under the assumption you are. That's better, in my view, than never deciding you've reached that point and spending your career uncertain and always seeking external validation of your writing.

 

[BWFoster78]

BWFoster can chime in about engineering

Engineering, like law, codifies it. To be an engineer, you have to: 1. get a degree from an accredited institution 2. Pass the FE exam 3. Work under an engineer for 4 years and 4. Pass the PE exam.

At some point, you just have to say "OK, I'm here" and proceed under the assumption you are.

I think you have to achieve some kind of external validation before you flip that internal switch, much like the process of passing a professional exam. I think exactly what the validation is will vary, but I don't think you should, absence any evidence, say, "I'm good enough."

 

[Shockley]

My opinion on this, bluntly, depends on whether or not you are a commercial writer or an artistic writer.

If you want to do commercial writing, then by all means follow formulas, check the market, etc. and I won't hold it against you. If your intent is to make money, then you should do everything in your power to make money.

My goal, however, is to create a work of art and financial gain be damned. I have a profession in the works - middling academia - and I don't need another. For me, writing is making the best story I can, messing with the form, blending that line between reality and fantasy, etc. I could make two cents off a published book and be happy, just as long as it was recognized as a quality piece of fiction that someone enjoyed.

 

[Twook00]

Yes, you and BWFoster both hit on it, and there's the rub, of course.

I think you can make a similar analogy to any profession. I know you can make it in law, and it applied when I was working as a research scientist as well. BWFoster can chime in about engineering. There is a point when you are starting where you have a level of uncertainty, and you need another set of eyes on what you're doing. In your professional growth, you have to develop past that. We can probably all think of people we've known in work environments who have thought they were there, but weren't as capable as they believed. I don't know the answer as to how you can tell when you're there. It takes experience, but how much experience will differ from person to person. At some point, you just have to say "OK, I'm here" and proceed under the assumption you are. That's better, in my view, than never deciding you've reached that point and spending your career uncertain and always seeking external validation of your writing.

When I think of pros past and current (GRRM, Stephen King, Ray Bradbury, Brandon Sanderson, et al), I'm reminded of the fact that they didn't have the interent, forums, critique groups, or friends who cared a lick about writing.

Validation wasn't an issue until the story was written. If they wanted to know how good their story was, they first had to write it. Maybe that's something to consider, since my biggest challenge lately is finishing what I've started. If you're writing entire books, whether they're crap or not, you're getting practice at telling a complete story, revising it, and shopping it around. Then, when/if you do get feedback, it's from people in the business and not the kid next door....

EDIT: As to the topic at hand, you can't possibly please everyone. However you can work to please a certain demographic I suppose. You can anticipate your fan base and use that to influence your world and characters. That said, if you try writing this way, I would imagine it being analagous to Schizophrenia. Too many voices.

 

[Penpilot]

When I think of pros past and current (GRRM, Stephen King, Ray Bradbury, Brandon Sanderson, et al), I'm reminded of the fact that they didn't have the interent, forums, critique groups, or friends who cared a lick about writing.

Well, I know for a fact that Brandon Sanderson did have friends and a critique group that he worked with before he got published. One of the people in his critique group was/is Dan Wells, another published author. Brandon was living in Dan's basement as he was writing his first batch of books and when he got his first book Elantris published.

I also know for a fact author Paolo Bacigalupi got a ton of help from his critique group on his award winning novel The Windup Girl.

In my critique group, we have a published author who takes our advice seriously.

Not every published author is a loner on keyboard. Some do venture outside of the bubble.

How is an author to know when he has reached a level where he can objectively evaluate the quality of his work?

I don't have an answer to this, but I do have a method to detrmine if something is a s good as I can make it. For myself, I find that if I can read a chapter/scene of mine in the morning, afternoon, and night and be satisfied with it on each read then it's as good as I can make it right then. In the morning, I'm the most awake so logic problems stick out the most. In the night is when clarity and flow stick out the most because my brain is too tired to auto-correct those issues. The afternoon is a mix between morning and night.

 

[Twook00]

Well, I know for a fact that Brandon Sanderson did have friends and a critique group that he worked with before he got published. One of the people in his critique group was/is Dan Wells, another published author. Brandon was living in Dan's basement as he was writing his first batch of books and when he got his first book Elantris published.

I also know for a fact author Paolo Bacigalupi got a ton of help from his critique group on his award winning novel The Windup Girl.

In my critique group, we have a published author who takes our advice seriously.

Not every published author is a loner on keyboard. Some do venture outside of the bubble.

You're right about that. Let me clarify. I personally spend too much time reading about writing, writing about writing, talking about writing, talking about reading about writing... etc. The impression I get from most of these pros, Sanderson included, is that you have to limit the distractions and write. I, being in my early 20's, feel like there are more distractions today than there were back when he was starting out.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE writing groups and critique forums. They're incredibly useful. I'm just saying that some of us (well me) depend too heavily on them. There are times when I can't write the next scene of a story until I've gotten feedback on the last one. I struggle with the "loner" aspect. I need validation, and that's an issue. I'm constantly writing to please others, rather than sitting and writing the story I want to write.

 

[Philip Overby]

Writing is lonely work. It's something at the end of the day, you are responsible for. I think the purpose of this thread is to think, "When do we stop asking for validation?" Questions like "Is this plot OK?" "Is this character too weird?" "Is this cliche?" It's great to ask these questions and that's what this community is for, but there has to be a point where you say, "This plot is OK." "This character is too weird." and "This is too cliche." You have to answer your own questions sometimes. Sometimes even answering other people's questions can help you.

I'm in the same boat as you, Twook00: I spend entirely too much time reading about writing rather than just writing. Don't get me wrong though, I write everyday. And I write with the knowledge that, "Wow, I had a good day" or "Wow, today sucked." Once a writer can recognize those things on their own, they'll stop needing as much validation and just know what pleases their aesthetic.

I think Sanderson mentioned before that King did have people that critiqued his work, but he only used about 1 in 10 of the advice he's given. Oftentimes other writers may tell you "You should write it like this..." instead of just saying, "This doesn't work for me." Just telling a writer something is boring, exciting, confusing, etc. is always more helpful. That's the job of a good beta reader though. However, it should always ultimately be up to the author if what they're doing is good.

 

[Penpilot]

You're right about that. Let me clarify. I personally spend too much time reading about writing, writing about writing, talking about writing, talking about reading about writing... etc. The impression I get from most of these pros, Sanderson included, is that you have to limit the distractions and write. I, being in my early 20's, feel like there are more distractions today than there were back when he was starting out.

Ahh.. Ok. I totally agree. Big danger in these times. Personally, I deal with this by remembering this one thing, I don't have to write. There's nobody holding a gun to my head saying I need to write 2000 words today. If I want to watch TV, surf the net, etc more than I want to write then I should do that and not feel guilty. Because if those things are constantly on a higher priority level than writing then I probably don't want to be a writer or write that story as much as I thought I did. It's as simple as that for me. I forget the TV and go write because I want to write more than I want to see show X.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE writing groups and critique forums. They're incredibly useful. I'm just saying that some of us (well me) depend too heavily on them. There are times when I can't write the next scene of a story until I've gotten feedback on the last one. I struggle with the "loner" aspect. I need validation, and that's an issue. I'm constantly writing to please others, rather than sitting and writing the story I want to write.

Part of a writer's development IMHO is being able to say, Frak the world and what they think. I'm going to write this crappy story about giant midget werewolves that go sparkly under moonlight. I know it's going to be crappy, but it's what I want to write. BUT I can make it better. That's the attitude you have to take.

A while back, I wrote a short story about zombies because I had an idea. It was a flawed story, and when I showed it to my writing group a couple of them said zombies were over done and demand for them trending down. I shrugged and said OK. I didn't care because it's a story I wanted to write, and I didn't need their permission to do so.

Feedback is great but it's not needed in order to continue writing a draft.

 

[Zireael]

Writing groups, writing forums and the like are incredibly useful, but you have to learn quickly that:
a) you can't please everyone
b) there be trolls

I struggled with this in the beginning of my writing...

 

[ALB2012]

I agree with the comment about distractions

Trolls are a pain in the arse, it never ceases to amaze me that people really have nothing better to do than make snarky comments.