Plot, Character, Setting

[Svrtnsse]

I remember reading somewhere (probably here in the forums) that a scene should strive to achieve the following three things:
- Further the plot
- Add depth to the character
- Explore the setting
- [EDIT] Do the theme thing

If it's not possible to get all three then try for two, or at least one. If a scene does none of the above then it may not be relevant to the story and is a candidate for removal or rewriting.

It seems to me that this is reasonable advice, but I'm sure exceptions can be made (and have been).

Would you say the above is accurate - not as a strict unbreakable law, but as reasonably good advice in the general case?

What other things can a scene strive to achieve, that isn't covered by the above three?

 

[Heliotrope]

Yes, I think if it does not achieve all three then it should be cut. If it only achieves one or two of the three then I would consider how that information could just be combined with another scene or shown in another way.

Another thing I would add is "Add depth to the THEME".

 

[Svrtnsse]

Oh, theme is good. I forgot about that - as I so often do. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Gryphos]

I agree that a fourth should be added saying something along the lines of 'develop the theme'. As to whether a scene must do all of these, I think, to quote Captain Barbossa, it's really more like a guideline than a steadfast rule. As a writer, I think you should be striving to do as many of these 4 things as possible in every scene. If you can have a scene develop the plot, character, setting and theme in a nice tight way, you've got a damn good scene; if your scene only paints a vivid picture of the character and the theme, that's fine. Hell, I myself have found myself guilty of writing scenes that basically do nothing but develop the story's theme, and I think, so long as they don't bloat the story or delay the plot too much, these kinds of scenes can be valuable. Nonetheless, as a rule of thumb, you should try to check as many of these categories as possible.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Thanks Gryphos. I added theme to the list as I could still edit the original post.

I get what you're saying. Having a scenes do all four would be ideal, but there's no harm having scenes that don't do all four as long as there's a bit of variety. I guess you can mix up scenes that include two or three, as long as they don't all include the same two or three things.

 

[Penpilot]

Yep, that's about right. I say this all the time. From my perspective, pretty much everything of importance falls under that umbrella. I think theme falls under it too. I mean how is theme explored? Through the characters, the plot, and the setting, no?

For example, if you're exploring unconditional love, you'd show characters expressing this or railing against it, which reveals something about their character, and if you have something to say about it, you reveal it as part of the plot, no? The setting would add to theme by providing counter point and comment.

I'm putting this out on the fly, so what do you think everyone, am I off base?

 

[Svrtnsse]

I think you're making sense. As I understand it theme is mainly explored through the characters and the plot and to a lesser extent through setting. I think you can probably write scenes that further character, plot, and setting without furthering theme though. It may be that this is trickier than I think and you'll have to actively try in order to do it, but I still think it's possible.

I have an easy time forgetting about theme though, so that's why I added it to the list.

 

[ATKH]

I've come to notice that when used masterfully, even setting descriptions alone can contribute to character development and theme. Think how in The Great Gatsby and Tender is the Night, Scott Fitzgerald makes every paragraph add to the theme - because everything is so neatly interwoven, a description of a night sky or a dock light becomes something meaningful in terms of theme and occasionally character development.
Which shows that if you're as good as Fitzgerald, every rule can be broken.

 

[FifthView]

I've come to notice that when used masterfully, even setting descriptions alone can contribute to character development and theme. Think how in The Great Gatsby and Tender is the Night, Scott Fitzgerald makes every paragraph add to the theme - because everything is so neatly interwoven, a description of a night sky or a dock light becomes something meaningful in terms of theme and occasionally character development.
Which shows that if you're as good as Fitzgerald, every rule can be broken.

I agree. The idea that description and details can do double- and triple-duty: yes. Dialogue, also.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at in my post. They SHOULD be doing double duty. If you have a scene that is strictly just a pretty landscape to add "world building" to your story, but it is not connected to theme, character view, or plot... then cut it. If you have a scene that is really nice for adding depth to the theme, but that is all, then consider how you might use that in another scene to make it to "double duty."

 

[skip.knox]

I'll add my agreement, but I would modify Heliotrope, who speaks of cutting with such enthusiasm I believe I shall avoid any encounters in dark alleys.

If a scene does too little along these four paths, an alternative to cutting would be to develop it. Ask yourself if there isn't room to add a line of dialog, a snippet of description, that might justify keeping the scene. Sometimes a weak scene can blossom into something unexpectedly important.

See how nurturing I am?

 

[Heliotrope]

Cut, cut, cut!

No, skip has a point. I've done what he suggests as well and it works. Sometimes I think your subconscious story teller puts stuff in for a reason, though it may seem like it doesn't do anything at the time. If you go back to it later and ask "why is this here? What purpose does this serve?" Often times, like skip suggests, you can nurture it into being more than it appears.

So I'm not as scissor happy as one might think... though as a child I did have a preoccupation with crafting to the point my mother started to call me a "clipto-maniac".

 

[oenanthe]

I'm all for deleting scenes that don't pull their weight. frankly, if you can't cut what you wrote in service to the story you're gonna have a hard time.

Cut it. Write something that actually does the job.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Reasonable, general, sure. I'm an analytical type (I've examined every -ly adverb in 140k words, plus every "that" and several other things, such as sentences beginning with adverbial phrases and any adjective string) BUT that being said, whether a scene gets cut or not I will bring down to gut feel. Now, if something seems to not be working, I will look at what the scene is doing as far as character, theme, plot, setting (similar to how I'll think about structure if I see a story developing an issue) but, I've cut scenes that do all four, and I've kept scenes that arguably don't do more than a couple.

I remember reading somewhere (probably here in the forums) that a scene should strive to achieve the following three things:
- Further the plot
- Add depth to the character
- Explore the setting
- [EDIT] Do the theme thing

If it's not possible to get all three then try for two, or at least one. If a scene does none of the above then it may not be relevant to the story and is a candidate for removal or rewriting.

It seems to me that this is reasonable advice, but I'm sure exceptions can be made (and have been).

Would you say the above is accurate - not as a strict unbreakable law, but as reasonably good advice in the general case?

What other things can a scene strive to achieve, that isn't covered by the above three?

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Cut, cut, cut!

No, skip has a point. I've done what he suggests as well and it works. Sometimes I think your subconscious story teller puts stuff in for a reason, though it may seem like it doesn't do anything at the time. If you go back to it later and ask "why is this here? What purpose does this serve?" Often times, like skip suggests, you can nurture it into being more than it appears.

So I'm not as scissor happy as one might think... though as a child I did have a preoccupation with crafting to the point my mother started to call me a "clipto-maniac".

Really good point about your subconscious.

Sometimes I don't understand why I need a scene until long after I've written it. There's one scene in my WIP where my MC and this other character are hiding from the bad guys in a cave on the side of a mountain after escaping capture. They get captured later, so I thought "why don't I just have them get captured earlier?" In other words, I could get to the next step in the plot in a more straightforward fashion and skip this scene.

But now I realize why the scene is important. First, it takes place after a major death and gives the MC time to process it and the events surrounding it. Also, it establishes where the MC is in her emotional arc. Both of the characters in this scene are injured, but the MC is better off than the other character, who is wounded pretty badly. She's kind of still in shock over aforementioned death, and, unprepared to process it, tries to distract herself. She tends to his wounds before dealing with her own, and shows tenderness uncharacteristic of her up until this point. But this is hard for her because she's remembering her time with her lover and partner in crime (memories that are starting to constantly resurface at this point) and them tending to one another's wounds and that (now dead) character reminds her in turn of the character who just died, (it all has to do with her caring about other people, which always has gotten her hurt) and she doesn't want to think about that, and showing compassion on another person suddenly feels far too intimate and hurts far too much. As the night wears on the temperature is dropping and she considers that she'd be warmer if she slept closer to him, but the idea is revolting so she ends up sleeping on the other side of the cave and preoccupying herself with her own stormy thoughts. In other words: she's going through some kind of change but keeps hitting the roadblock of her deep fear of being close to people. This against the backdrop of her realizing that she cared about the character who's dead, but still having no idea how to process her death. It's establishing what in her has changed, and what in her is still stuck. Mostly it's stuck.

Now that I've written this out, I understand why MC is so angry at the end of this chapter.

Idk if I explained that properly, it probably makes no sense...

Does this scene advance the plot? Not really. Does it develop the world? Not as it is, but I could use it to drop some information. Does it reveal character? YES, I realize now, but I didn't even realize that when I wrote it. Does it develop the theme? I don't know yet but I sense that it does. Oftentimes the importance of a scene is extremely subtle. I felt needed a break in the action so I wrote this scene, but it ended up being more.

I hope. lol.

 

[skip.knox]

So I'm not as scissor happy as one might think... though as a child I did have a preoccupation with crafting to the point my mother started to call me a "clipto-maniac".

Hoot! Chortle! *snort*