Prose Style Concern

[MSadiq]

Ah, this is the beauty of jewelry combined with clothing from those parts of the world. It is stunning, and yes it does give the sense or impression of a mirage.

In my mind, I meant to convey that they were really close to him, close enough to reach his vitals, just like how a necklace is very close to a really vital part of the body, but there's distance between the neck and the necklace, which is the dare not approach part.

 

[Mad Swede]

Bingo. Languages aren't inventories of slightly different sounds with slightly different ways of saying the same thing. There are almost no words in any language that map into another. That's why, for example, when translate int English, I use phrase or synonyms. This part, "his presence required trepidation and demanded reverence," is just me trying to convey the word هيبة/haybah, which in English they translate as prestige, but that's completely wrong. The word kin doesn't have an Arabic counterpart, either, and so on.

A translation is the the translator's comprehension of a text from one language rendered in another language. This rendering tries to be as close to the original text as it can.

I recognise that. I'd interpret haybah as vördnad if I was translating into Swedish, and I'd be using the word vördnad in it's fullest sense. But there's no way I could easily translate it into English without losing some of that sense of awe which vördnad and haybah convey.

 

[MSadiq]

This metaphor is interesting, but conflicting. A necklase on a girl's neck would be very close, literally touching her skin. But then you say they dared not approach. So it's a conflicting message. Perhaps try a different metaphor, eg. "hyenas circling a wounded lion"?

Good point. It's a metaphor I'm used to, and its implications are hard-baked into my mind, so I didn't think about it in this way.

 

[Mad Swede]

In my mind, I meant to convey that they were really close to him, close enough to reach his vitals, just like how a necklace is very close to a really vital part of the body, but there's distance between the neck and the necklace, which is the dare not approach part.

Yes, I got that when I read it. That's what I'm trying to say, if you haven't seen the combinations of jewelry and clothing you get in your part of the world then you might not understand how there can be a sort of distance between neck and necklace. It's really hard to explain.

 

[MSadiq]

I recognise that. I'd interpret haybah as vördnad if I was translating into Swedish, and I'd be using the word vördnad in it's fullest sense. But there's no way I could easily translate it into English without losing some of that sense of awe which vördnad and haybah convey.

Old English has a cognate for it: weorðmynd. I'm not sure the meanings match, though. I'm actually trying to learn Old English because my power system relies in some ways on the semantics of a word.

 

[MSadiq]

Yes, I got that when I read it. That's what I'm trying to say, if you haven't seen the combinations of jewelry and clothing you get in your part of the world then you might not understand how there can be a sort of distance between neck and necklace. It's really hard to explain.

They can also be very stupendous. Just copy-paste كرسي جابر into Google Images.

 

[AlexS]

If you lived there that long I have to ask why you think MSadiq needs to change his prose style? Sure, you could write it all in a western style, but what is wrong with taking the reader away into the setting using a different prose style? Challenge them, engage them, draw them in. Yes, as a reader you have to do a bit of work, but why not?

He asked, I answered. It's up to him what to do with my answer, I don't insist. But notably, I answered him, not you.

 

[Mad Swede]

He asked, I answered. It's up to him what to do with my answer, I don't insis. But notably, I answered him, not you.

But I'm asking you. And no you don't have to answer, but that in itself would also be an answer...

 

[Finchbearer]

Ah, this is the beauty of jewelry combined with clothing from those parts of the world. It is stunning, and yes it does give the sense or impression of a mirage.

No, I didn’t even think about it being next to the skin, why I don’t know. MSadiq description of how that metaphor is used in Arabic culture is even more interesting because it fuses many things together that just don’t exist in my culture.

 

[MSadiq]

We'd write something similar in Swedish, so I don't have a problem with the original wording.

Old English would use a similar construction, too. I guess Swedish still uses more archaic Germanic features. Funnily, as I read translations of some Old English texts, I see some of the same stylistic choices of Arabic reflected in it, like parallelisms, which modern English speakers would perceive as redundant, or the presenting of information as fact then giving reasons without a real introduction at the beginning, and so on, just like I did now.

Does Swedish still use kennings? Like calling the sea whale-road and so on? In Arabic there's desert-ship for camel. There's also nicknaming, like a very famous poet is called Al-Farazdaq, which means dough ball because he's pale and his face is round. His name is Hammam, lol. Or how, at least in my village, people call someone who's foolish wall-crasher (roughly. It's wall-er-y, but they mean that he crashes into walls), as he metaphorically walks into walls because of his foolishness.

 

[Finchbearer]

Old English would use a similar construction, too. I guess Swedish still uses more archaic Germanic features. Funnily, as I read translations of some Old English texts, I see some of the same stylistic choices of Arabic reflected in it, like parallelisms, which modern English speaker would perceive as redundant, or the presenting of information as fact than giving reasons without a real introduction at the beginning, and so on.

Does Swedish still use kennings, like calling the sea whale-road and so on? In Arabic there's desert-ship for camel. There's also nicknaming, like a very famous poet is called Al-Farazdaq, which means dough ball because he's pale and his face is round. His name is Hammam, lol. Or how, at least in my village, people call someone who's foolish wall-crasher, as he metaphorically walks into walls because of his foolishness.

I’m being rude here possibly, but I just love kennings. Battle-sweat meaning blood etc. just so evocative to me. Have you read pieces from the Exeter book MSadiq ?

I’ve read a few books you may like, Winters in the World by Eleanor Parker and Wild by Amy Jeff’s.

 

[MSadiq]

No, I didn’t even think about it being next to the skin, why I don’t know. MSadiq description of how that metaphor is used in Arabic culture is even more interesting because it fuses many things together that just don’t exist in my culture.

It probably didn't occur to me that it'd be really different in Western cultures because in my mind a necklace is a common item, but it's usually those common but artisanal and artistic items that change from culture to culture. I should keep this in mind.

 

[MSadiq]

I’m being rude here possibly, but I just love kennings. Battle-sweat meaning blood etc. just so evocative to me. Have you read pieces from the Exeter book MSadiq ?

I’ve read a few books you may like, Winters in the World by Eleanor Parker and Wild by Amy Jeff’s.

You just opened an old wound. Winters in the World got lost in shipping, and I never got my hands on it...

I haven't read anything from the Exeter Book. Though, I do have Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, which I still haven't read eitehr. My biggest problem is that I buy faster than I read. I have 30 books that I bought last year, and I'm done with just five them. I read 56 last year, so I'm probably gonna be digging in the remaining 25 for 4-6 months.

Also, I love kennings, too. They might seam redundant to people, when you can call it blood instead of battle-sweat, but it really shifts your perception about blood from gruesome to glorious. It's the natural product of the labor of battle, just like how sweating is the natural labor of working the field, which people view positively as a sign of hard work. You don't get that with just blood.

 

[Mad Swede]

Old English would use a similar construction, too. I guess Swedish still uses more archaic Germanic features. Funnily, as I read translations of some Old English texts, I see some of the same stylistic choices of Arabic reflected in it, like parallelisms, which modern English speaker would perceive as redundant, or the presenting of information as fact than giving reasons without a real introduction at the beginning, and so on.

Does Swedish still use kennings, like calling the sea whale-road and so on? In Arabic there's desert-ship for camel. There's also nicknaming, like a very famous poet is called Al-Farazdaq, which means dough ball because he's pale and his face is round. His name is Hammam, lol. Or how, at least in my village, people call someone who's foolish wall-crasher, as he metaphorically walks into walls because of his foolishness.

Kennings aren't much used in modern Swedish, but do occur in older prose, especially poetry and folk tales. You'd use kennings to keep a rythm as you told the tale to your listeners. My grandmother often used them when she told me folk tales. Nicknaming is alive and well over here, and someone foolish would be called "blåst" (meaning a mind blown clear of thought) or "bakom flötet", literally meaning behind the (fishing line) float (flöte, from the Old Norse fleyti).

 

[Finchbearer]

You just opened an old wound. Winters in the World got lost in shipping, and I never got my hands on it...

I haven't read anything from the Exeter Book. Though, I do have Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, which I still haven't read eitehr. My biggest problem is that I buy faster than I read. I have 30 books that I bought last year, and I'm done with just five them. I read 56 last year, so I'm probably gonna be digging in the remaining 25 for 4-6 months.

Also, I love kennings, too. They might seam redundant to people, when you can call it blood instead of battle-sweat, but it really shifts your perception about blood from gruesome to glorious. It's the natural product of the labor of battle, just like how sweating is the natural labor of working the field, which people view positively as a sign of hard work. You don't get that with just blood.

I don’t want to rub salt in the wound or maybe I do - I really enjoyed Winters in the World. One thing I remember from that is ‘frosts fetters’. I have to say Wild by Amy Jeff’s was excellent and one I’ll re-read.

Some of the writing from the Exeter book is on The Poetry Foundation; The Seafarer, The Wayfarer and The Wife’s Lament are among my favourites.

I’d also recommend watching the spoken word performance of Beowulf by Benjamin Bagby on YouTube.