Reader vs Beta Reader and Preconceived Notions About Nobility

[BWFoster78]

One of my beta readers requested that I bring the following question before the board, so to speak.

But first, a quick rant:

The writer/beta reader relationship is a tricky one. You must have honest feedback on your work even though it may be hard to hear. On the other hand, if your beta reader is a writer, he's going to be looking at things differently than a reader would. Finding the balance on when to take advice is difficult.

A reader gets transported into your story (hopefully!). A beta reader remains outside your story.

A reader accepts what you're showing them. A beta reader actively looks for plot holes, inconsistencies, and missed details, sometimes to an absurd degree.

Onto the issue at hand (EDIT: Please consider that this is a made up world. It is not supposed to reflect historical people or places.):

My beta reader feels that my readers will have preconceived notions about nobility based on the titles Duke and Marquess. While I do not doubt that there will be some preconception involved, I feel that the reader, overall, will give me wide latitude to establish the world within a broad framework.

The two particular issues:

1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning. My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense. I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:

If I show the characters stopping at this town and mention that this is simply what they do, how much explanation do I really need? As a reader, would you question this?

2. This example is the more relevant of the two. I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father. I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.

My beta reader take two great exceptions:

a. He feels that it is GREATLY against expectations for the marquess to be able to issue commands in her father's name.

b. He feels that is GREATLY against expectations for the noble to send the daughter without a great deal of written assurances and word from the duke himself.

I feel, obviously, that there is quite some degree of variation within fantasy ruling culture and that the reader will allow me to define these kinds of details as I see fit. As long as I stay consistent in that the daughter has leeway to issue commands on the duke's behalf, I think it's fine. Same with how the minutia of the lord/noble relationship is handled.

My beta reader wanted me to get further input on this because he thinks it will negatively impact my novel if I don't pay enough attention to these details, so please help! Do you share his preconceptions?

Thanks!

 

[srcroft]

First,

Its good to have a writer beta but also you need to find betas that are your target audience too.

As for your dilemma, you do not need backstory. Its telling and it treats your reader as stupid. Backstory is good for you to write and keep for yourself. Let the information flow naturally. If the character would go there, make him go there. Allow clues to why, don't tell. If it doesn't have anything to do with the theme and doesn't move the story or conflict forward remove it. You don't write that a character slept 8 hours most of the time lol, we know that happens. Its all about writing the interesting things. I once deleted 4 pages I loved because I could sum it up in 3 lines of tell and move onto the interesting part.

Just because you love your world and find your backstory interesting, shows your passion. The reader wont feel this way.

As far as breaking rules that you mentioned like the sending of orders. It depends. If you are showing 18th century earth, you have to do your research. If somethings off like that it should be explained. If its not important to the story--then you made a mistake and change what happened.

PS also never ever take the advice of one beta as gospel or as insult. Every reader will have insight--not always good either. In the variety of counselors you gain wisdom.

Focus on the story as a whole and the theme. Issues like this can be fixed in draft 2.

 

[Guru Coyote]

I think what you need to establish early on in the writing is that your world has "it's own tules." Make sure the reader knows that "normal expectations" are likely to be wrong, and show them the rules of your culture/world.

And as you mentioned yourself, make sure You keep your own rules - aka be consistent.

I would take your beta reader's objections as sign-posts of where your culture differs from what might be standard expectation and make sure to establish the differences.

Keeping within the "expected" won't do your novel any good. (only if you write in an established world.) Are you writing "another book of that style", or are you writing something fresh?

Baseline: know the reader's expectations, and then play with them.

 

[Aosto]

1. I write that the characters stop in a town a short distance from the duchy capital in order to freshen up and appear well heeled at court the next morning. My beta reader took great exception to this stopping, saying that it made no sense. I think that I can easily fix his objection by giving backstory on how the custom of stopping developed, but the question still remains:

I don't think a lot of backstory is needed. Maybe a passing sentence saying that it is custom, but don't elaborate to much as it will turn the reader off. Backstory may not even be required at all. I for one would just assume it was custom in your world for someone to appear well and clean when addressing the court.

2. This example is the more relevant of the two. I have a situation where I show the marquess (which I'm defining as the daughter of the duke who is in line succeed her father as duchess) having great power to speak for her father. I'm also showing a situation where she browbeats a minor noble into sending his daughter with the marquess to serve as a lady in waiting.

It's your world. Do what you want. That being said, a lot of readers will expect you to elaborate on the titles and what position of power they hold. Overall it's still your story. If you tell me that the Marquees had speaking power in the absence of her father, then I'll believe you.

In closing. I think your beta reader needs to detach him/herself from real world explanations and take what you offer as the truth in your story. If your truth is presented in a consistent and 'logical' manner, then I would accept it, no matter the situation.
It seems the beta reader has a preconceived notion about these titles that they are unwilling to let go of. Even if the beta reader is a writer, they must read as a reader. Readers don't pick the story apart nearly as much, but will notice glaring plot holes and mistakes.
So, avoid saying the Marquees has speaking power and then reprimand her in the future for giving orders when not allowed. And if one must be well and clean in court, make it always so. Don't have a grungy criminal in court at the same time.

 

[BWFoster78]

As for your dilemma, you do not need backstory. Its telling and it treats your reader as stupid. Backstory is good for you to write and keep for yourself.

As a general rule, I sorta agree with you. Too much backstory drains the life, tension, and immediacy from a story. I think that, however, having no backstory at all can make the world flat. Fantasy readers in particular crave some details. I don't feel that the occasional anecdote that helps explain the world is a bad thing. Especially if you use that backstory to further develop conflict and character. The key, I think, is relevant backstory.

If you are showing 18th century earth, you have to do your research. If somethings off like that it should be explained.

This is a good point. I did not explicitely clarify that this is a completely made up world. I will edit the original post. Thanks.

Focus on the story as a whole and the theme. Issues like this can be fixed in draft 2.

I appreciate the advice, but I'm at an appropriate place in my story to consider details such as this.

 

[BWFoster78]

I think what you need to establish early on in the writing is that your world has "it's own tules." Make sure the reader knows that "normal expectations" are likely to be wrong, and show them the rules of your culture/world.

And as you mentioned yourself, make sure You keep your own rules - aka be consistent.

I would take your beta reader's objections as sign-posts of where your culture differs from what might be standard expectation and make sure to establish the differences.

Keeping within the "expected" won't do your novel any good. (only if you write in an established world.) Are you writing "another book of that style", or are you writing something fresh?

Baseline: know the reader's expectations, and then play with them.

I appreciate the reply, but what I'm really looking for is: do you have the same preconceived notions as the beta reader? Thanks.

 

[BWFoster78]

I for one would just assume it was custom in your world for someone to appear well and clean when addressing the court.

Issue 1 Vote Count:

Brian - 1
Beta Reader - 0

If you tell me that the Marquees had speaking power in the absence of her father, then I'll believe you.

Issue 2 Vote Count:

Brian - 1
Beta Reader - 0

In closing. I think your beta reader needs to detach him/herself from real world explanations and take what you offer as the truth in your story. If your truth is presented in a consistent and 'logical' manner, then I would accept it, no matter the situation.
It seems the beta reader has a preconceived notion about these titles that they are unwilling to let go of. Even if the beta reader is a writer, they must read as a reader. Readers don't pick the story apart nearly as much, but will notice glaring plot holes and mistakes.
So, avoid saying the Marquees has speaking power and then reprimand her in the future for giving orders when not allowed. And if one must be well and clean in court, make it always so. Don't have a grungy criminal in court at the same time.

Exactly my point. Thanks!

Also, thanks for taking your time to answer my questions. I appreciate it!

 

[Guru Coyote]

I appreciate the reply, but what I'm really looking for is: do you have the same preconceived notions as the beta reader? Thanks.

In regards to the "clean up before court" - that made total sense to me, I would have accepted it as you wrote it.

The "giving orders for her father" - hmmm, I'd think it an interesting difference to the way I'd expect authority to work in a historical setting. Esp. as she is a woman etc. Still, I would have accepted it as the rules of the culture you describe. (This is what I meant by "knowing and playing with expectations".

 

[BWFoster78]

In regards to the "clean up before court" - that made total sense to me, I would have accepted it as you wrote it.

Good deal. Thanks!

Issue 1 Vote Count:

Brian - 2
BR - 0

The "giving orders for her father" - hmmm, I'd think it an interesting difference to the way I'd expect authority to work in a historical setting. Esp. as she is a woman etc. Still, I would have accepted it as the rules of the culture you describe. (This is what I meant by "knowing and playing with expectations".

I try to be consistent in portraying women as treated more like modern women than they would have been treated in true medieval culture, very similar to WoT in this respect.

Issue 2 Vote Count:

Brian - 2
BR - 0

Thanks so much for your input!

 

[Steerpike]

I agree with Aosto, so I'm voting Brian +1.

I'll also say that beta readers can do a whole lot more harm than good, and the fact that this particular issue is occupying a lot of your time while you're trying to finish this work is a good example of that. It is particularly true if the beta readers are writers. I don't know if that is the case here, but it starts to look like it because the beta readers is, in essence, wanting to re-write aspects of your story for you.

My personal view is that the writer is generally better left to his own devices until there is a complete "product" in place. Then you get a few people to read it and if there are big, consensus issues that need work, you address them. For comments like these about the stopping in town and the power wielded by the Duke's daughter - I'd probably disregard them, particularly if they came only from one reader, and more particularly if that reader is also a writer. If you're concerned about the Duke's daughter, for example, and the other noble's reaction to the daughter's browbeating, that can probably be remedied with a single sentence while still keeping the elements of the story itself the same. If you have someone trying to rewrite portions of your story in the way they'd write it, that should be a red flag in terms of seeking out their input, particularly at the pre-completion stage.

 

[BWFoster78]

Steerpike,

Thanks for the vote. On both issues it stands:

Brian - 3
BR - 0

My personal view is that the writer is generally better left to his own devices until there is a complete "product" in place.

On one hand, I agree with you. In my situation, however, I'm deep into working on my 2nd draft. I find that the conversations that I'm having with my beta reader help to solidify my world. He's brought up a lot of things that have forced me to correct oversights and make my world deeper.

It does take time and effort, but, overall, I think the process has been a net positive.

For comments like these about the stopping in town and the power wielded by the Duke's daughter - I'd probably disregard them, particularly if they came only from one reader, and more particularly if that reader is also a writer.

I'm in complete agreement with you here. However, I respect the amount of time and effort that my beta reader has put into evaluating my work. Upon my telling him that I'm fine with these two aspects of my work as written, he implored me to get more consensus, so I did.

If you're concerned about the Duke's daughter, for example, and the other noble's reaction to the daughter's browbeating, that can probably be remedied with a single sentence while still keeping the elements of the story itself the same.

That's kind of the thing, though. Even after him pointing out his opinion, I had absolutely no problem with it as written. He seemed to think that it was a big deal that the marquess had any authority whatsoever. It seems to me that I've read a bunch of fantasy where the king/duke/noble's scion was the one on the quest and their birthright gave them quite a lot of say over their father's vassals. I'm not sure where the comment is coming from. I figured that, since the two of us have such a disconnect, it can't hurt to get more opinions.

If you have someone trying to rewrite portions of your story in the way they'd write it, that should be a red flag in terms of seeking out their input, particularly at the pre-completion stage.

I've been bringing that discussion up with him more and more. The awareness, I hope, is also making me a better beta reader for others. I'm trying to make sure I focus on what I feel is reasonable rather than what I would want. I do feel that this particular reader sometimes has a problem making that distinction.

My main problem then becomes that this problem taints the rest of his suggestions.

Anyway, as always, thanks for your comments.

It's nice to find a subject in which we are in agreement. I'll do my best to fix that soon; I'm thinking about a post: The unified field theorum of writing. You're going to hate it!

 

[Steerpike]

Brian:

Ah...for some reason I thought you were working through the initial draft. Now that you say it, I realize you've said before that you are on the second draft and (I think) nearing completion in the coming few months.

For the Duke's daughter:

1) You can simply leave it as is, and assume (rightly) that most readers will go with it and understand she wields this authority in the fantasy world;

2) Her acts can be normal for this world, and you can establish that with a simple sentence early on to demonstrate that she has this power and it is normal;

3) Her acts could be unusual, even in your fantasy world, which you can also establish with a simple sentence early on to demonstrate that she wields an unusual level of authority in her father's name.

I don't think a typical reader is going to have a problem with any of those, particularly in a fantasy world where such things aren't meant to be faithful reproductions of history in the real world.

As for field theory, I really hate anything to do with field theory, though I really like James Clerk Maxwell, who I guess used them for his work on electromagnetic waves. I don't suppose Maxwell will fit into your writing field theorem?

 

[BWFoster78]

For some reason, I don't have the option anymore of editing the original post.

For clarity, my beta reader wants me to point out, for issue 1, that my party is fleeing another group.

I'm not sure that that description is accurate. My party was fleeing another group until they reached the safety of the duke's soldiers. Now, the other, smaller, group is still pursuing them at a discreet distance. My protagonist feels that the pursuers may still represent a danger, thus the stopping in town creates conflict as he becomes agitated. The rest of the party feels quite confident that the 100 men and five mages can hold off the catcher's 25 guys and unknown potential number of mages.

If that changes any opinions, let me know.

 

[BWFoster78]

As for field theory, I really hate anything to do with field theory, though I really like James Clerk Maxwell, who I guess used them for his work on electromagnetic waves. I don't suppose Maxwell will fit into your writing field theorem?

The post really won't have any thing to do with field theory except that I'm trying to tie together the ultimate equation on writing.

 

[Steerpike]

If the question is whether it is plausible or not for your party to stop while they have people pursuing them, under the circumstances you stated, I'd say that the fact you acknowledge it in the story and it forms a source of conflict between the characters is sufficient. You've acknowledge the issue as a writer. There's no longer a problem. The characters decide what they decide, and whether any person things they were smart about it or not isn't really relevant - it's what they did

 

[Steerpike]

The post really won't have any thing to do with field theory except that I'm trying to tie together the ultimate equation on writing.

Ah. Well...you do know that there isn't one?

The closest you could probably come, which I've seen people attempt with software, would be a formula for writing a certain type and style of novel. For example, you could probably come up with a formula for writing "generic action fantasy novel X" and use that over and over again, changing all of the details but basically writing the same story repeatedly, in different ways. That can be lucrative - look at the Goosebumps books for kids, for example. When my kids were little they loved them, and it didn't take long to note that, with a few exceptions, RL Stine was writing the exact same story over and over again, with a little bit of variation. You could probably model something like that mathematically. You could do the same for novels written for adults, so long as you're OK with the idea that you're basically putting out the same thing over and over.

 

[BWFoster78]

If the question is whether it is plausible or not for your party to stop while they have people pursuing them, under the circumstances you stated, I'd say that the fact you acknowledge it in the story and it forms a source of conflict between the characters is sufficient. You've acknowledge the issue as a writer. There's no longer a problem. The characters decide what they decide, and whether any person things they were smart about it or not isn't really relevant - it's what they did

Exactly my thoughts.

This is really freaking me out being in agreement with you. Stop it!

 

[BWFoster78]

Ah. Well...you do know that there isn't one?

The closest you could probably come, which I've seen people attempt with software, would be a formula for writing a certain type and style of novel. For example, you could probably come up with a formula for writing "generic action fantasy novel X" and use that over and over again, changing all of the details but basically writing the same story repeatedly, in different ways. That can be lucrative - look at the Goosebumps books for kids, for example. When my kids were little they loved them, and it didn't take long to note that, with a few exceptions, RL Stine was writing the exact same story over and over again, with a little bit of variation. You could probably model something like that mathematically. You could do the same for novels written for adults, so long as you're OK with the idea that you're basically putting out the same thing over and over.

This is more theoretical and just for the fun of it.

I'm going to duel post on my blog, and my plan is to make it my post for Thursday. Tomorrow, I'm planning: How Your Beta Reader is Ruining Your WIP!

 

[Steerpike]

Exactly my thoughts.

This is really freaking me out being in agreement with you. Stop it!

Heh. Well you still have to get to my next one

Let me clarify - I don't think there is anything wrong with formulaic fiction. Writers can make a good living at it. Just realize that when you use a formula, your end result will be formulaic (by definition).

 

[Steerpike]

I'm going to duel post on my blog, and my plan is to make it my post for Thursday. Tomorrow, I'm planning: How Your Beta Reader is Ruining Your WIP!

I'll check your blog tomorrow then!

(man sorry about all the typos in previous messages; I was trying to get ready for work and post at the same time. Clearly not the best approach!)