ACSmyth
Minstrel
I've cracked and ordered a copy, so I'll be playing catch-up again.
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[Reading Group] April 2014: Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner
- Thread starter Philip Overby
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- #22
Hooray! Let's see if we can go three for three.
I'm liking it so far, so we'll see I suppose.
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- #23
Ankari: It's interesting you mention this because I feel like this book is kind of like if His Majesty's Dragon and Prince of Thorns had a baby. That probably makes no sense, but allow me to explain.
Whereas I'll say His Majesty's Dragon didn't engage me much, Swordspoint is doing what Prince of Thorns did: it's carrying me along because of its characters and the interesting world. I guess it's a style thing. The further you get in, the conflict makes itself more apparent. So for me, it has a lot of elements that Novik uses in her book (personal relationships, internal conflict) but also the parts I liked about Lawrence's book as well (style, fast pace, interesting world.)
I'd say you and I have similar tastes in a lot of regards (Abercrombie, Cook, Erikson). The reason I voted on this book was because I feel like I already know what I like (gritty, darker fantasy) and I'm looking for stuff I may also like that I normally wouldn't.
That said, once I got further along, I started to really like the characters, especially St Vier and Alec. I'm starting to like Michael more, but it's been coming along a bit slower. The other minor characters also are interesting in their own ways, but a lot of this is subtlety that's hard for me to pick up sometimes. I guess.
So I'd say both His Majesty's Dragon and Swordspoint are books I normally wouldn't read. Whereas His Majesty's Dragon perhaps took too long to click with me, Swordspoint did so pretty quickly. The same can be said for Prince of Thorns. Both of these books hooked me because of stylistic reasons and kept me because of character reasons.
While Prince of Thorns's plot was pretty straightforward I felt (quest for revenge) Swordspoint has many little intricacies that sometimes I catch and sometimes I don't. But when I do catch them, I'm like "Oh!' Most books I read don't really do that, so I'm appreciating this different reading experience. I'd probably read more of Kushner's work down the line.
One thing I personally like about this reading group is it allows me to become exposed to different authors I'd never consider reading otherwise. While I may vote for some authors that are more familiar to me, I was glad to take a risk on someone I'd never read or heard much about this go round.
I'm over 80 pages into this story and all I want to do is throw it aside. The problem is I read ebooks and use my phone to read them.
The story is weak. No other way to describe it. You have cliches all over the place. The brooding hero (Richard), a lover who distances himself away to hide his identity/past (Alec), pompous nobles (nearly everyone else), and a spattering of whores and thugs.
What's the plot? I know it involves intrigue because the author is hiding it while filling my miind with chatter and cranked hormonal levels.
Here is what I have:
1) If someone stabbed St Vier and left him to die, I wouldn't care. Actually, I would, because that would be something.
2) If Alec revealed himself to be a noble of some sort, or a dragon polymorphed as a man, or a god of love, or a collection of mice veered (Eriksson reference) into a man, I wouldn't care.
3) If Michael ends up fighting St Vier and winning, I wouldn't care.
4) If the book suddenly said "The End" when I flipped the paged, I would thank God and move onto something else.
Someone please tell me what they're seeing in this thing. Please.
The story is weak. No other way to describe it. You have cliches all over the place. The brooding hero (Richard), a lover who distances himself away to hide his identity/past (Alec), pompous nobles (nearly everyone else), and a spattering of whores and thugs.
What's the plot? I know it involves intrigue because the author is hiding it while filling my miind with chatter and cranked hormonal levels.
Here is what I have:
1) If someone stabbed St Vier and left him to die, I wouldn't care. Actually, I would, because that would be something.
2) If Alec revealed himself to be a noble of some sort, or a dragon polymorphed as a man, or a god of love, or a collection of mice veered (Eriksson reference) into a man, I wouldn't care.
3) If Michael ends up fighting St Vier and winning, I wouldn't care.
4) If the book suddenly said "The End" when I flipped the paged, I would thank God and move onto something else.
Someone please tell me what they're seeing in this thing. Please.
I've already stated it. I don't feel compelled to convince you to share my opinion. Not everyone will like any given books. In my case, it is one of a handful I've read numerous times. Tastes differ.
Ophiucha
Auror
The story is definitely weaker than His Majesty's Dragon was, for me. I find the court intrigue stuff in this book to be a bit boring - I like the Duchess as a character, but I'm not interested in her scheming and playing around with Michael. Michael could not be in this book at all and I'd regard that as an improvement just to be rid of such a boring character. But I really do quite like St Vier, and even though Alec is bit too irritating for me to like him, I do like their relationship and I like St Vier's fights and I like the worldbuilding in their part of town (the court stuff just seems like court stuff, with more bisexuality).
I think Kushner's a better writer, technically, than Naomi Novik. By a considerable margin, which makes up for the longer stretches of this book I find uninteresting compared to Temeraire.
I think Kushner's a better writer, technically, than Naomi Novik. By a considerable margin, which makes up for the longer stretches of this book I find uninteresting compared to Temeraire.
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- #27
I think that's a big point for me is that I just find Kushner's style more interesting myself. Novik has a lot of good points as well, but for whatever reason that book just didn't click with me.
I think I said why I like this book above your post. It's more of stylistic thing and me connecting with certain characters. This is another book I wouldn't necessarily recommend to everyone, but I feel like it's just clicking better for me. Like Steerpike said, "Not everyone will like any given book." I could see why people liked His Majesty's Dragon, but for whatever reason it just wasn't for me. Prince of Thorns is one I found quite engaging. While I really enjoyed that one, a lot of people levied the same complaints that you have about this book (no discernible plot, characters they didn't care about, etc.)
I think once a reader decides early on they don't like a book, it is a difficult climb to change that opinion. I know it's only happened for me a handful of times (Erikson for example. I like his style but had trouble sticking with it. However, once I carried on, I really loved his work).
So for me, the style is interesting to me and it's a change of pace. I've read lots of more traditional fantasy work and I'd say this is pretty non-traditional.
I find Michael more interesting than some others might. I'm assuming we'll get an eventual showdown between St Vier and Michael, so I'm interested to see how that turns out (not good for Michael I'm guessing).
I haven't noticed any cliches really, so I guess that's attributed to what I think is Kushner's writing style.
Another thing I love is the idea of this city where swordsmen and duels are widely accepted. I think that's a cool concept and it's executed well. For me, if I find a concept cool (like dragons during the Napoleonic Wars), I want to give the story a shot. When this book was first described, I found the concept really interesting and I think Kushner is a very good writer so she does a good job executing it.
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I arrived at the conversation between Richard and Katherine and I couldn't be happier. I can identify the plot, and even appreciate the mystery peppered throughout that scene. If the story continues in this vein, I'll be content.
I wonder if the 80 pages before of back story become relevant later.
I wonder if the 80 pages before of back story become relevant later.
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- #29
I'd like to talk about the second block, but there was a lot going on, so I need to go back and look at those chapters and see what exactly happened in each of them. Some new characters are focused on (like Ferris) so I need to get all that straight. I'll try to post some discussion questions early this week.
As an aside, I'm almost done with The Fall of the Kings. Very nicely done. The magical and mystical elements of the world figure in more heavily than in Swordspoint or Privilege of the Sword. A few familiar faces appear, though many years have passed. Great fun.
ACSmyth
Minstrel
It has arrived, though I won't start it until I've finished the other paperback I've got on the go. So I'm playing catch-up again, but at least I won't be as far behind as I was on PoT.
- Thread starter
- #32
OK, some discussion questions.
1. How do you feel about Ferris's POV chapters?
2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?
3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?
4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in?
5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?
OK, that's all I have for now. Feel free expand on anything if you want.
I'll have to look over
1. How do you feel about Ferris's POV chapters?
2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?
3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?
4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in?
5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?
OK, that's all I have for now. Feel free expand on anything if you want.
I'll have to look over
Gryphos
Auror
1. How do you feel about Ferris's POV chapters?
Ferris seems like an interesting character and his chapters are fine. But there's one thing I don't quite get, or maybe I've just forgotten (which is most likely). Why exactly does he want to kill Lord Halliday?
2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?
It's obviously going to lead to something, probably a duel he's going to end up fighting. What that leads to, no idea.
3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?
He was right to refuse, but he handled it all wrong. Instead of out right refusing the offer and saying "all future letters will be burned", he should have actually told Horn that he needed more details and a face-to-face agreement instead of a brief letter. Him being rude about it won't end well, I'm betting.
4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in?
Not really. I already liked Alec for his cynicism and sarcasm, but otherwise no characters are really sticking out for me. None of them are bland or anything, but none are particularly outstanding.
5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?
The story is alright, but to me it's nothing special. The thing I'm most interested in is the whole killing Halliday thing. Though, as I stated earlier, I'm not entirely sure why Ferris wants him dead.
Ferris seems like an interesting character and his chapters are fine. But there's one thing I don't quite get, or maybe I've just forgotten (which is most likely). Why exactly does he want to kill Lord Halliday?
2. Do you feel like Michael's training with Applethorpe will be worthwhile?
It's obviously going to lead to something, probably a duel he's going to end up fighting. What that leads to, no idea.
3. How do you feel about St Vier rejecting Horn's proposal to take care of Michael for his slight?
He was right to refuse, but he handled it all wrong. Instead of out right refusing the offer and saying "all future letters will be burned", he should have actually told Horn that he needed more details and a face-to-face agreement instead of a brief letter. Him being rude about it won't end well, I'm betting.
4. Are there any other characters you've become interested in?
Not really. I already liked Alec for his cynicism and sarcasm, but otherwise no characters are really sticking out for me. None of them are bland or anything, but none are particularly outstanding.
5. Do you feel you are growing more interested in the story as it goes along? Which plot point is most interesting to you?
The story is alright, but to me it's nothing special. The thing I'm most interested in is the whole killing Halliday thing. Though, as I stated earlier, I'm not entirely sure why Ferris wants him dead.
- Thread starter
- #34
I'm still feeling like this book is hooking me more and I do think it has a lot to do with the style. I agree with Gryphos that the actual plot isn't anything really new, but it has various twists and turns that are fun. This just shows me that a book doesn't have to have some awesome, set the world on fire plot to be an interesting story for me. Have several personalities butting up against each other and you can have quite a remarkable story.
I'm still sticking with St Vier and Alec as my favorites. Again I agree with Gryphos that a lot of the other characters are fine, but I don't have any other favorites, although the Duchess is certainly interesting. I do like Lord Horn's spiteful and jealous nature as well.
I'm still sticking with St Vier and Alec as my favorites. Again I agree with Gryphos that a lot of the other characters are fine, but I don't have any other favorites, although the Duchess is certainly interesting. I do like Lord Horn's spiteful and jealous nature as well.
- Thread starter
- #35
I've been busier than normal with work, but I've still been reading this. I really enjoyed the play scene and the aftermath of it. I'm interested to see if Horn can lure St Vier out, but I suspect it won't happen the way he wants because Horn seems to be kind of a screw up.
What plot point is most interesting to you at the moment?
What plot point is most interesting to you at the moment?
- Thread starter
- #36
How are people coming along with this one? I'll just talk about it generally so far.
Some points I find about this story:
1. It's very different than the kind of stories I usually read. It does have a lot of politicking and intrigue, but I guess I'm used to more adventure style fantasy. So this has been a welcome diversion from my usual picks.
2. I really love the idea of Riverside. A place with basically no laws where people handle things by hiring swordsmen. It seems kind of a barbaric way of handling things, but in a very genteel sort of society.
3. While I was becoming more interested in Michael, his PoV has slipped under several others that have been cropping up. Usually I don't mind multiple PoVs, but for this particular book, I would have preferred it stuck to the major players. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I find myself more interested in the characters who were introduced at the beginning.
4. While I'm not confused with anything, there is a lot to keep up with. Who is friendly with who, who hates who, who is going to kill who. I feel like I have to take notes in order to discuss this book. I like it a lot, but I find it difficult to discuss because I can't just read it and say, "Oh this happens." Some parts are that simple, but with the barge scene for instance, there is a lot to unpack. Because of the intricacies, it makes it difficult for me to remember what happened in each block that I'm reading. I remember in a general way. However, this may have to do with me reading the bulk of this on the train to work when I'm half-awake. I would say this book is one you need to have a little bit more attention for.
5. Lots of interesting things happening here where I'm at now. However, there are so many little threads to connect, I wonder how they're all going to be resolved. There's Ferris and Katherine (is that her name) and dealing with a lord whose name I can't remember. Then there's St Vier-Michael conflict possibly, and St Vier-Horn. So while there's lots of conflict going on now, like I said, I'm hazy on some of the details.
Hope everyone's coming along on this one. Sorry I guess I'm supposed to be some kind of facilitator for this group, but with work I'm finding it hard to be able to post as much in general. So much to keep up with in life and all!
Some points I find about this story:
1. It's very different than the kind of stories I usually read. It does have a lot of politicking and intrigue, but I guess I'm used to more adventure style fantasy. So this has been a welcome diversion from my usual picks.
2. I really love the idea of Riverside. A place with basically no laws where people handle things by hiring swordsmen. It seems kind of a barbaric way of handling things, but in a very genteel sort of society.
3. While I was becoming more interested in Michael, his PoV has slipped under several others that have been cropping up. Usually I don't mind multiple PoVs, but for this particular book, I would have preferred it stuck to the major players. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but I find myself more interested in the characters who were introduced at the beginning.
4. While I'm not confused with anything, there is a lot to keep up with. Who is friendly with who, who hates who, who is going to kill who. I feel like I have to take notes in order to discuss this book. I like it a lot, but I find it difficult to discuss because I can't just read it and say, "Oh this happens." Some parts are that simple, but with the barge scene for instance, there is a lot to unpack. Because of the intricacies, it makes it difficult for me to remember what happened in each block that I'm reading. I remember in a general way. However, this may have to do with me reading the bulk of this on the train to work when I'm half-awake. I would say this book is one you need to have a little bit more attention for.
5. Lots of interesting things happening here where I'm at now. However, there are so many little threads to connect, I wonder how they're all going to be resolved. There's Ferris and Katherine (is that her name) and dealing with a lord whose name I can't remember. Then there's St Vier-Michael conflict possibly, and St Vier-Horn. So while there's lots of conflict going on now, like I said, I'm hazy on some of the details.
Hope everyone's coming along on this one. Sorry I guess I'm supposed to be some kind of facilitator for this group, but with work I'm finding it hard to be able to post as much in general. So much to keep up with in life and all!
I know I'm behind, but it took me more than a week to push past the first political scene at tea. Ugh. This was my problem with it the first time. As I read it, a little Phil on my shoulder says, "Anita... do your characters always have to talk over tea? I like your scenes in orchards, gardens, or alleys better.
I just really got bogged down because for me, it was a terrible info dump of crap I didn't care about. The bits with Alec and St Veir were just so much better.
Okay, pushing on now. Hope to catch up soon.
i try to remember as I read this that it's not current. It was written in 1990 or something and meant to appeal to readers at that time. Things have seriously picked up pace since then and while there are a few current authors that still use belabored writing styles, the current fantasy market has moved past this particular tedious style. I mentioned Privilege of the Sword before and for those of you who enjoy the political intrigue of Kushner's world, it's a FPOV work that certainly has a different writing style.
If I didn't love that book so much, though, I might have abandoned this one for a second time. I just find its introductory chapter intriguing, but the follow up tedious beyond words. At the end of the tea, I was hoping a rogue gunman barged in and shot the place up to end my misery.
I just really got bogged down because for me, it was a terrible info dump of crap I didn't care about. The bits with Alec and St Veir were just so much better.
Okay, pushing on now. Hope to catch up soon.
i try to remember as I read this that it's not current. It was written in 1990 or something and meant to appeal to readers at that time. Things have seriously picked up pace since then and while there are a few current authors that still use belabored writing styles, the current fantasy market has moved past this particular tedious style. I mentioned Privilege of the Sword before and for those of you who enjoy the political intrigue of Kushner's world, it's a FPOV work that certainly has a different writing style.
If I didn't love that book so much, though, I might have abandoned this one for a second time. I just find its introductory chapter intriguing, but the follow up tedious beyond words. At the end of the tea, I was hoping a rogue gunman barged in and shot the place up to end my misery.
I finished the book. I have to say, the book ends better than it begins. When Kushner has Ferris use Katherine as a messenger to Richard, things picked up steam.
There are a few flaws with this book, namely the first 80 pages. Michael seems to have slipped off of Kushner's radar. From the set up, you'd think he had a larger role to play than the one he has (I don't want to detail his fate as I don't want to spoil anything).
For such a short book, there are too many names. Trying to determine which plot belongs to which lord, and why they have even entered the fray, is a burdensome task. If you let the story catch you up in the details, you expose yourself to possible consfusion. Once you step away, the plot is pretty straight forward. I won't discuss it because I'm not sure where everyone is at.
In theory, I like the idea of Riverside. But the practical side of me can't accept the lack of lawlessness we're told exists. Every Riversider seems to adhere to unspoken laws. If you compare the two parts of the city, you'll note less violent crimes are committed in Riverside than in the city proper. I can only think of one scene where anyone dies in Riverside.
Everyone seems well nurished, sheltered, and ladened with impressive heaps of idle time. Riverside doesn't live up to the picture Kushner has painted for us.
There are a few flaws with this book, namely the first 80 pages. Michael seems to have slipped off of Kushner's radar. From the set up, you'd think he had a larger role to play than the one he has (I don't want to detail his fate as I don't want to spoil anything).
For such a short book, there are too many names. Trying to determine which plot belongs to which lord, and why they have even entered the fray, is a burdensome task. If you let the story catch you up in the details, you expose yourself to possible consfusion. Once you step away, the plot is pretty straight forward. I won't discuss it because I'm not sure where everyone is at.
In theory, I like the idea of Riverside. But the practical side of me can't accept the lack of lawlessness we're told exists. Every Riversider seems to adhere to unspoken laws. If you compare the two parts of the city, you'll note less violent crimes are committed in Riverside than in the city proper. I can only think of one scene where anyone dies in Riverside.
Everyone seems well nurished, sheltered, and ladened with impressive heaps of idle time. Riverside doesn't live up to the picture Kushner has painted for us.
Ophiucha
Auror
I got distracted playing through all of the Mass Effect games, but I'm near the end of the book. It definitely picks up a bit more once the political intrigue has more to do with St Vier, and I think through this whole thing he and Alec are the main reason I like the book. The world has some interesting notes, a few of the players in the political game are fun to watch (Diane, Katherine - I do quite like her little character arc), but the chapters that focus on Alec and Richard are the best of the book.
When I read this book the first time a year ago, I came in less out of love for political intrigue and more out of interest for some older fantasy with LGBT characters, and I am quite happy with the book in that regard.
But the type of story and world this is doesn't fall too far outside of my usual reading habits, either. I am reminded a lot of the Gormenghast series and the earlier The Worm Ouroboros (which was more swords & sorcery than this, but definitely has a lot of the same flavour), and I think Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell may have been influenced a bit by Kushner. It's not my favourite subgenre, but it's one I have read a fair bit of all the same.
It is an odd one for me in that I actually like the action more than the conversations. I'm usually the other way around.
When I read this book the first time a year ago, I came in less out of love for political intrigue and more out of interest for some older fantasy with LGBT characters, and I am quite happy with the book in that regard.
But the type of story and world this is doesn't fall too far outside of my usual reading habits, either. I am reminded a lot of the Gormenghast series and the earlier The Worm Ouroboros (which was more swords & sorcery than this, but definitely has a lot of the same flavour), and I think Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell may have been influenced a bit by Kushner. It's not my favourite subgenre, but it's one I have read a fair bit of all the same.
It is an odd one for me in that I actually like the action more than the conversations. I'm usually the other way around.
I completed a trifecta. I finished Swordspoint, and then went on and re-read Privilege of the Sword, which is a great book and the pacing is faster than Swordspoint if that bothers you. Finally, I read The Fall of the Kings, which brings magic and mysticism back into the world and is quite good.
So that was my April reading.
So that was my April reading.
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